New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

cincybranr
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New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Hey all,

Got an 80% Daily that needs suspension really bad.
My car is an 85 Hatch GTS factory

Here is what I’m mostly sold on now:
7kg front Swift springs
4.5kg or so rear Swift springs
Rear OEM type setup

My two ideas: feel free to add others.
Idea 1:
T3 Evolved front Coilovers (just don’t want to cut factory and like the idea of these)
7KG front 4.5 rear springs
TRD blue shocks
Rear OEM setup

Idea 2:
New Annex Coilovers
7kg front 4.5 rear springs
OEM rear

What route should I go? Or any other suggestions?

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:37 am

Im curious to hear the thoughts of others on this...

The 2 setups bgrs offers (garage annex and fortune auto) seem to be the best off the shelf units in the USA, *on paper at least*.

T3 is good too, the casing anyway - I had their old oem converted short casing and it was very nice. I cant speak for their new fully fabbed from scratch casing though, but seems even better in theory.

Dont get the trd short stroke shocks. Maybe theyre good on the track, maybe... they suck on the street. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fanboy and/or is in denial. I tried 7/8k springs in front, and 5.1/6k springs in back. In all fairness, imo, 4.5k rear springs prob would be a closer match to the trds though. The front was WAY too stiff regardless. Dont believe eveything you read online, even something that appears to have a strong backing.

The problem is once you get above 4.5-5k springs the ride becomes very firm. Sure one can match shock valving which helps, but only to an extent. Its physics. Strong springs are what they are, and an 86 is a light/flimsy chassis. What do you think will give first, a very strong spring, or a tin can of a chassis? Spring rates that these coilover manufacturers offer are really meant for cars with reinforced chassis' (roll cage, etc.) and r comp tires.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby aukword1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:52 am

Currently I am running the KYB/AGX short throw struts on the T3 weld on kit with 7k front eibachs and 5.1k rear swifts. It works fine for a daily or on the track. I'd have to agree with previous post as to stay away from the TRD ones. I would like to try Tokico HTS's next cause they are supposed to be the best as far as dampering is concerned on these cars. Personally I'd go with the T3 ones because of the adjustability aspect.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:06 pm

I guess it comes down to what you want from it.
Do you want an improvement over stock handling ?
Are you more interested in how it looks and how low you can get it with coilovers ?

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:23 pm

^this guy knows a thing or two. prob nobody better on the forum for suspension advice.

if you want to be low and/or need to dial in ride height you will need coilovers. you could also go custom (what i did), but be prepared for lots of trial and error.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:39 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:^this guy knows a thing or two. prob nobody better on the forum for suspension advice.

if you want to be low and/or need to dial in ride height you will need coilovers. you could also go custom (what i did), but be prepared for lots of trial and error.

Well what can I say ?
That one single sentence has made all the Years of posting on here worth the effort, thank you Deuce Cam ☺

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby scalpel » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:43 pm

I would go with the new annex or FA coilovers. I been researching a bit and I may spring (no pun intended) for the annex.

I plan to set up about the same as you 90% daily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR-cavdzNbE

This guy up here just moved to annex as well on his rebuild

around the 13:00 mark

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Technics » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:44 pm

I am also coming to an end of a contemplation of coilovers and will be getting the Annex coilovers with battlegarage’s swift spring upgrades.

It was up against FA with swift springs.

Something I am unsure about is upgrading all the links, laterial bars, LCA, T3’a GTX2 etc. Most if not all upgraded items come with rose joints, some come half rose jointed half bushed.

Looked at T3 stuff, but will be going with grp4 fabrications gear.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:13 am

Talk to Grant @ BGRS....

personally(MY opinion)... anything over 6kg/4kg in spring rates is fanboy
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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:18 am

totta crolla wrote:I guess it comes down to what you want from it.
Do you want an improvement over stock handling ?
Are you more interested in how it looks and how low you can get it with coilovers ?


Thank you for your honest reply! I don’t care how it looks if it doesn’t handle well. Seeking a large improvement over stock without sacrificing driveability is really what I’m after.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:26 am

I love keeping the suspension talk updated and appreciate all the honesty and experience here!

Is there agreement that with a 6kg front, 4.5kg rear springs, TRD Blue shocks are still just too much, as in too firm?

I too don’t know much about upgrading all the links, lateral bars etc..Lot’s to learn from you all here!

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:28 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:Talk to Grant @ BGRS....

personally(MY opinion)... anything over 6kg/4kg in spring rates is fanboy


I’ve read the previous threads here where he or someone from BGRS really chimes in on this subject..Seems really knowledgeable. I love the input here from you all too.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby scalpel » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:46 pm

I never heard of grp4 ? also interested int he links later bars etc.

I think I read Grant commenting somewhere that for daily with some track Annex. hence why I may end up going that route.

I still have time though may wait for the next BG black friday sale haha

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby scalpel » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:46 pm

Finally a little more activity here :lol:

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:59 pm

scalpel wrote:Finally a little more activity here :lol:


Same with the grp4. They have an AE86 section on their website. UK based.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Aim to keep the front LCA's at the factory angles, either by using roll centre adjusters if you want to lower the car or by keeping the ride height close to stock. Use springs to absorb the bumps, dampers to control the springs and anti-roll (sway) bars to tune the handling.
I would consider adjustable anti-roll bars a greater benefit to handling than adjustable coilovers. Don't run too much caster, a little more than stock. Depending on tyres 1.5° negative camber on the front and about 2mm toe in.
Initially I would spend my money on adjustable sway bars front and rear (Whiteline) and adjustable front lower control arms to gain some extra camber.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:57 pm

Talk to Grant @ BGRS....

personally(MY opinion)... anything over 6kg/4kg in spring rates is fanboy


With all due respect to bgrs - i believe he recommends annex or fa (what he sells) with 7k front, and 4.7k rear for street. I'd love to see him chime in.

In all fairness, an ae86 will never be comfortable. Even a stock car with ONLY drop in sport shocks and trd bushings (hardened rubber) will be firm... believe me Ive tried. Most people who are willing to drive an ae86 are a bit hardcore and are willing to put up with more harshness than the average person. Its a likely explanation for people saying their 6/4k+ coilovers are *comfortable* lol.

Is there agreement that with a 6kg front, 4.5kg rear springs, TRD Blue shocks are still just too much, as in too firm?


3-4.5k rear springs might be ok with the trd shocks. theyre actually not that aggressive. Anything above 5k is definitely under damped - youll be bouncing around out back.

6k might not be enough with trd fronts. 7-8k seemed to be a good match. Problem is the setup is VERY firm for the street.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:02 pm

totta crolla wrote:Aim to keep the front LCA's at the factory angles, either by using roll centre adjusters if you want to lower the car or by keeping the ride height close to stock. Use springs to absorb the bumps, dampers to control the springs and anti-roll (sway) bars to tune the handling.
I would consider adjustable anti-roll bars a greater benefit to handling than adjustable coilovers. Don't run too much caster, a little more than stock. Depending on tyres 1.5° negative camber on the front and about 2mm toe in.
Initially I would spend my money on adjustable sway bars front and rear (Whiteline) and adjustable front lower control arms to gain some extra camber.


Good Stuff! Thanks for the tips.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby scalpel » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:43 pm

totta crolla wrote:Aim to keep the front LCA's at the factory angles, either by using roll centre adjusters if you want to lower the car or by keeping the ride height close to stock. Use springs to absorb the bumps, dampers to control the springs and anti-roll (sway) bars to tune the handling.
I would consider adjustable anti-roll bars a greater benefit to handling than adjustable coilovers. Don't run too much caster, a little more than stock. Depending on tyres 1.5° negative camber on the front and about 2mm toe in.
Initially I would spend my money on adjustable sway bars front and rear (Whiteline) and adjustable front lower control arms to gain some extra camber.



Thanks

Should we make a list of what parts to buy? or just the T3/BGRS catalog?

Does anything change if we switched steering rack to MR2?

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby jondee86 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:25 pm

cincybranr wrote:Seeking a large improvement over stock without sacrificing driveability...

This statement defines the Holy Grail of suspension upgrades. Often sought in the
pages of internet forums and in manufactures advertising blurb, but never found.
The problem is that physics always gets in the way of great ideas...

Image

There is a workaround... so long as you only drive on mirror smooth roads without
manhole covers, speed bumps, railway crossings or potholes, you can be low with
stiff suspension and gocart handling. But if you have to drive on less than perfect
roads, as pointed out above, you have to find a compromise between handling and
ride quality. Not too stiff and not too low.

Good shocks do help. But the Laws of Physics dictate that for a fixed vehicle mass
the rate at which energy is transferred into the chassis when you hit a bump is
proportional to the spring rate. Translation... with a short stiff spring the bump
will be felt as a sharp jolt, while with a long soft spring the bump will be barely able
to be felt. Racecar versus limo... the ride you want will lie somewhere in between.

Of course, if you buy a Koenigsegg you can have the Holy Grail. But for us lesser
mortals who drive old cars with outdated live axle and McPherson strut suspension,
we have to make do with what we can get to fit under the car. I'm using full size
springs (5.2kg/mm front and 4.4 kg/mm rear) with short stroke Koni Sports shocks
and the ride is OK for city driving on average roads. Awesome on decent country
roads, but you get bounced around a bit (lot) at speed on crappy broken roads.

I think I have a reasonable compromise. Young guys with the classic 8/6 kg/mm
combo will say harden the f**k up !!!!! But us old dudes like a bit more comfort :)

Happy New Year to one and all.... cheers... John D
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby assassin10000 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:56 pm

Rates are good, especially for a stripped hatch that is still street driven.

I like how TRD blues felt but the car I drove was also on TRD bushings. Controlled, smooth but still firm enough.

HTS are known to be 'harsh' on the street IIRC.

Koni's are good and way more comfortable than most if you plan to build a custom setup I would recommend the yellow 'race' model 8610 fronts and yellow mustang rears for grip. Camaro rears if grip and drift. I personally ran the SW20 F/Camaro R on my home brew coilovers. They were way better than my old Greddy's. (Which are similar to Megan/Stance/BC/Etc. IIRC)

Not a fan of Greddy/Stance/Megan/BC/Etc. shocks/valving. I would avoid unless your car is for show use.

Avoid AGX like the plague.



The best I've ever felt (and I have the prototypes) are custom valved bilsteins on the ultimate coilovers from Modception. The car rides super nice/smooth, like my friends Club NC Miata. My rear suspension has some compliance as it is half bush/heim battleversion links. These are not OEM style rear.

I would contact them and see if he has them available (website is out of date I think).



I don't have experience with any AE86 coilovers from them but there is also Feal, which custom valves to the car/use/weight/power/etc.


Andrew

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:30 am

scalpel wrote:
totta crolla wrote:Aim to keep the front LCA's at the factory angles, either by using roll centre adjusters if you want to lower the car or by keeping the ride height close to stock. Use springs to absorb the bumps, dampers to control the springs and anti-roll (sway) bars to tune the handling.
I would consider adjustable anti-roll bars a greater benefit to handling than adjustable coilovers. Don't run too much caster, a little more than stock. Depending on tyres 1.5° negative camber on the front and about 2mm toe in.
Initially I would spend my money on adjustable sway bars front and rear (Whiteline) and adjustable front lower control arms to gain some extra camber.



Thanks

Should we make a list of what parts to buy? or just the T3/BGRS catalog?

Does anything change if we switched steering rack to MR2?


MR2 steering rack ?
If I remember correctly the rack bar is a different length to the AE86 one so you might experience extra bump steer, if this becomes an issue research the rack bar length and if it is different look at inner rack balljoint lengths to correct it. What you are looking for is the inner rack balljoints (the actual ball where it pivots) to be the same distance apart as on the AE86 rack.
Alternatively you can buy an outer 'bumpsteer correction' balljoint kit from somewhere like T3

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:37 am

Assassin Andrew has written many great articles on AE86 suspension and I agree with him on the Koni's, they are a good damper and if you are adventurous they are easily modified by substituting different oil viscosity.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:46 am

assassin10000 wrote:Rates are good, especially for a stripped hatch that is still street driven.

I like how TRD blues felt but the car I drove was also on TRD bushings. Controlled, smooth but still firm enough.

HTS are known to be 'harsh' on the street IIRC.

Koni's are good and way more comfortable than most if you plan to build a custom setup I would recommend the yellow 'race' model 8610 fronts and yellow mustang rears for grip. Camaro rears if grip and drift. I personally ran the SW20 F/Camaro R on my home brew coilovers. They were way better than my old Greddy's. (Which are similar to Megan/Stance/BC/Etc. IIRC)

Not a fan of Greddy/Stance/Megan/BC/Etc. shocks/valving. I would avoid unless your car is for show use.

Avoid AGX like the plague.


The best I've ever felt (and I have the prototypes) are custom valved bilsteins on the ultimate coilovers from Modception. The car rides super nice/smooth, like my friends Club NC Miata. My rear suspension has some compliance as it is half bush/heim battleversion links. These are not OEM style rear.

I would contact them and see if he has them available (website is out of date I think).


I don't have experience with any AE86 coilovers from them but there is also Feal, which custom valves to the car/use/weight/power/etc.


Andrew



I contacted Modception because I had heard great things, they responded “ Sorry, but the coilovers are not available for purchase at this time yet”. I emailed back early December asking if there were any eta at all and got no response. Darn..

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby cincybranr » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:48 am

jondee86 wrote:
cincybranr wrote:Seeking a large improvement over stock without sacrificing driveability...

This statement defines the Holy Grail of suspension upgrades. Often sought in the
pages of internet forums and in manufactures advertising blurb, but never found.
The problem is that physics always gets in the way of great ideas...

Image

There is a workaround... so long as you only drive on mirror smooth roads without
manhole covers, speed bumps, railway crossings or potholes, you can be low with
stiff suspension and gocart handling. But if you have to drive on less than perfect
roads, as pointed out above, you have to find a compromise between handling and
ride quality. Not too stiff and not too low.

Good shocks do help. But the Laws of Physics dictate that for a fixed vehicle mass
the rate at which energy is transferred into the chassis when you hit a bump is
proportional to the spring rate. Translation... with a short stiff spring the bump
will be felt as a sharp jolt, while with a long soft spring the bump will be barely able
to be felt. Racecar versus limo... the ride you want will lie somewhere in between.

Of course, if you buy a Koenigsegg you can have the Holy Grail. But for us lesser
mortals who drive old cars with outdated live axle and McPherson strut suspension,
we have to make do with what we can get to fit under the car. I'm using full size
springs (5.2kg/mm front and 4.4 kg/mm rear) with short stroke Koni Sports shocks
and the ride is OK for city driving on average roads. Awesome on decent country
roads, but you get bounced around a bit (lot) at speed on crappy broken roads.

I think I have a reasonable compromise. Young guys with the classic 8/6 kg/mm
combo will say harden the f**k up !!!!! But us old dudes like a bit more comfort :)

Happy New Year to one and all.... cheers... John D


Love the honesty man. It really is a sacrifice on one end or the other! Good info from your post too! Thanks

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:54 am

I wish a manufacturer would have balls to offer a coilover with shocks that have more travel. (Most current offerings seem to be in the 4-4.5" range.) That way one could realistically use lower spring rates. Just have the shocks revalved. I admit its very nice to have the independent height and spring preload adjustments, even if one isnt trying to slam the ride height.

It wont happen though because they prob wouldnt sell. All just copy the other guys with the 8/6k rates and say its been tuned for the chassis, and in some cases that its compliant on the street... and the average consumer lets them get away with it because they dont know any better, or feel the need to defend their lofty purchase.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby scalpel » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am

my other questions is I seen some people reinforce the rear shock towers... with all these coilovers do we need to or should we?

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:26 pm

scalpel wrote:my other questions is I seen some people reinforce the rear shock towers... with all these coilovers do we need to or should we?

Toyota could have easily gone to coilovers on the rear but they chose not to, probably so that they could use a full diameter spring that allows enough travel for the great heavy axle.
I would guess that using small diameter coils becomes a compromise of travel vs spring rate. Not enough travel and the spring goes coilbound - result - damper punched through arch.
Spring rate high enough to avoid coilbind - result - damper punched through arch.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:04 pm

^That made me think of something else. Regarding the 'coilovers' with oem style rear... the springs probably need to have a moderate-to-high rate. Notice how short the springs are? Its a matter packaging to fit the adjustable perch.

The ride height would be high if a longer spring was used, which negates why most peope buy 'coilovers' (ie adjustability for lowz). Bind would occur if a short/soft spring was used.

Another point: theres not really room to run a bump stop on a rear oem style 'coilover' setup. One could I suppose, prob on the shock if done carefully, but I think trying to attach a cut oem bump to to the adjustable perch would really limit bump travel.

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Re: New Annex Coilovers or...Old faithful TRD Blues etc..

Postby totta crolla » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:36 am

I fail to see the fascination with coilovers, about the only thing that they allow over standard is corner weight adjustment, which if done correctly is a valid gain but who in the real world actually does it ?
The spring being mounted closer to the wheel changes its effective rate so a softer spring can give the same efective rate as stock.
If you need to adjust corner weight and to a certain degree ride height, an adjustable spring perch for stock rear spring mounts is available and imho is the best way.
Totally agree with Deuce Cam re. softer springs, in the same way that a loud car feels fast it seems a stiff, bouncy car has the same effect.
I use 40mm Bilstein dampers and 160lb (2.9kg approx) springs front and rear with stock anti-roll bars, mostly everyone would say it is too soft but I'm only interested in how quickly it can traverse a given terrain....

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