Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

burdickjp
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Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 pm

I have a month or so off betweeen semesters at engineering school and thought I'd finally put some effort into a 4A-G of my own. I've been sharing it on some 4A-G communities looking for some feedback and encouragement. Please, let me know what you think!

The build started the day I got home from a semester away. I pulled some parts out of storage and let them sit and equalize in temp before continuing. The crankshaft I'm using is one of three 40mm crankshafts I have at my disposal. Right now it looks to be the best candidate for this build.
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My measuring methodology is rather ritualistic. I measure each feature a minimum of 9 times, three each in three directions. All of my instruments read to 1 micron ( 0.001mm ). All three measurements in one direction must come out within a micron of eachother. If they do not I keep measuring until they do. I really wish I had a CMM for this. It'd be more accurate and a hell of a lot faster.
This info goes into a spreadsheet. If Toyota specifies a tolerance this autopopulates. If there's a corresponding size designation this autopopulates. When I have mating features done it will pick bearing sizes and give me clearances. I can shuffle bearings around to get more precise clearances. Once I know my sizes I order them up from Toyota, then measure the actual bearings that come in, shuffle them around, and do a final install and plastigauge.

Here is Jeff's wicked-awesome engine blueprinting spreadsheet

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These are Molnar Technologies 40/20 rods I'd put together a while ago. These will allow me to pair that 40mm crank with OEM 81.5mm AE111 pistons. According to this box these weigh in at 419.4 grams. I'll be throwing them up on the balance soon, hopefully. Right now my 0.1g scale is AWOL. I must've left it in the FSAE shop at school. The connecting rods had been sitting in the office for a few months, they shoul be the right temp, so I started to work on them first. I measure each big end a minimum of 9 times: 3 in each of 3 directions. This all goes into that spreadsheet which calculates the average and runout. These rods were all fairly good. I have them labeled by letters, as I haven't yet weighed them to decide what cylinder they're going in.
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The next day I started into the crankshaft. I measure each crankpin and main a minimum of 9 times.
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I'd had it polished locally, and they took off a little more material than I'd have liked. Everything is just bearly under minimum spec. Luckily my rods are on the bottom end of Toyota's specs, so my rod bearing clearances are fine. Will have to wait on the mains.
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burdickjp
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 pm

After I was done with the office work I took the AE111 block out to the driveway to give it ithe TechnoSquare treatment.
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All of the casting flash and all of the rough parts of the casting in the crankcase was ground down. I then took it to the machine shop to sit in the sonic tank over the weekend. I ordered my rod bearings from Toyota; two sets of #1s and 2 sets of #2s. I have a set of each in the bearing bank in case I need to switch them around. I did take a quick detour through the sales department and test drove an FR-S. I liked it. A lot.

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A similar deburring process is done on the head. Unfortunately, while doing bowl work one of my carbides came loose, I think because of a worn bearing in my flex shaft on my die grinder, and ate one of my seats rather deep. New seats on these heads are expensive and many shops are apprehensive about doing them, so I'm looking at a few options. I can probably cut this seat deep and compensate, but I don't think I want to. Equal breathing is important! That woulb mean cutting ALL of my seats deep.

I can also start into the AE111 head that's on the car right now, but I'd like to keep it in running condition. That'd mean switching heads, which would mean putting my AE101 head on it. Not fun.

I also have an AE101 head, but I'm not sure I want to play with it. I have been thinking of epoxying the intake ports and redoing them to be more like AE111 ports, but that's rather involved. Not expensive, though...And the AE101 head I have has good guides and seats.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:47 pm

Next I assembled the mains with ARP studs and Tomei ladder bars.

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Block didn't come out to shabby. Before I got these all torqued down I realized I missed the washer on the right on main #5. This block is measuring tight and slightly distorted on the mains. I'm picking up a better torque wrench, as I no longer have a Snap-On, and getting my ARP lube from my shop and trying again. If it still isn't right, I've another block at my disposal, but it means more deburring and another weekend in the tank.

Then I cleaned up some bearings, measured, and labeled them.
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rod bearings came in and got measured out. Not bad.

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Bearing on the left is a main. Bearing on the right is a rod.
All of the OEM 4A-G main bearings I have are made by TAIHO. 42mm rod bearings are also made by Taiho.

Those 40mm rod bearings, and all 40mm 4A rod bearings I've seen, are marked with that logo. Power Enterprise F1 Black bearings are made by the same company, as are all of the Clevites I've seen for the 4A. I believe it's for DAIDO bearings.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:47 pm

I was not happy with the roundness of the main bores on the block I'd deburred, so I went out to the garage and got another one! This one measured out much better and looked to be a substantially better casting. So much better, in fact, that I'm not going to bother deburring it. Anyway, I measured the main bores, went through my main bearing bank, and put together a set of main bearings.

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By my calculations, my main bearing clearances are as follows:

1 - 0.029
2 - 0.029
3 - 0.028
4 - 0.029
5 - 0.029

and my rod bearing clearances are 0.041 across the board.

I assembled the bottom end with some Plastigauge.
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Here you can see this block is a very clean casting.

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40mm crankshaft. I'm running on the big end of OEM recommended clearances as I plan on revving this thing rather high.

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Tomei ladder bars and ARP main studs should help keep this thing together when revving it up there. I'm also going to be using a 7A oil pan, which is a nice aluminum casting and ties into the transmission bellhousing.

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And here's the plastigauge! On the right is my knee. Yes, I'm in my PJs. Again, I'm recovering from something nasty. My wife is an elementary teacher. I call her class 'plague rats'.
Below my knee is my new Brownline torque wrench. It's MASSIVE, which would make it cumbersome in other work, but is fantastic here. The extra length makes it nearly effortless.

I use a vernier caliper to measure the width of the plastigauge and interpolate between the widths on their card.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:48 pm

I finally openned up my cams. I got a set of their 20v PonCams for this engine. Tomei has the best timing cards I've ever seen.
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Cams then went into the head to map their profile. I usually have a nice set of V-blocks for this, but these also got left in the FSAE shop at school.
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The 16v numbers were from a while ago. I'm not sure if my 16v exhaust timing is right. I'll have to look for a timing card.
That's with VVT changing timing 30 degrees. I'm also not sure if that is right, but I'm thinking it may be considering the advanced timing closely matches the 16v intake timing.

Timing cams is going to be relatively easy for me. I have access to both an AE101 and AE111 intake gear. There's a 5 degree difference in timing between the two. I can also install a Toda offset pin, which provides a further 5 degrees. So I get a choice of four discrete positions for my intake timing, and of course their respective "VVT on" positions. I will likely not screw with the Toda pin unless it would be necessary to get closer to the Tomei centerline.

I have an adjustable exhaust pulley, which may get some fiddling, but I doubt much. The major effect here will be the drastic difference in intake and exhaust manifolds compared to stock, which could produce different ideal timing, but I don't think by much.
As I said earlier, I will probably go to the dyno with an adjustable intake pulley to allow quick intake timing changes. This will allow me to find out which of the two VVT pullies would work better. The order of operations will be:
install AE111 pulley. Find and record centerline.
install AE101 pulley. Find and record centerline.
Extrapolate 2 other centerlines if offset pin is used.
install Toda pulley. Set to whichever timing is furthest from Tomei specs. Record position on pulley.
Set to whichever timing was closest to Tomei specs. Record position on pulley. Calculate VVT positions. Make sure I can actually achieve them within Toda adjustment range. If not, move a tooth on the belt, modify the pulley, etc.
Take it to the dyno! Having the positions known will mean a minimum of fiddling around on the dyno proper. I can quickly adjust between my discrete positions.
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:48 pm

I ordered up some port epoxy. I'll be taking a go at modifying AE101 ports to more closely resemble AE111 ports. This should also give me some practice before I go and epoxy on tho FSAE cylinder head. I'll also be talking to a local shop about my AE111 head and we'll see what can be done with replacing the seats.

AE101 head came apart, was cleaned up a little, and set up for molding!
When you're playing with valvetrains, you better keep your stuff in order
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Next, cast the ports in anarobic silicone RTV.

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I included the intake manifold to illustrate the discontinuity between the intake angle and the port angle. It is easy to imagine Yamaha/Toyota was compromising in packaging the injection.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:49 pm

It's hard to tell, but this is an AE111 head. So we will have molds of both 20v heads!
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I found the valves I'd used for doing valve testing. The numbers I came up with as being most ideal are VERY similar to the valves Ferrea later developed, which is why a set is sitting here ready to go on whatever head I end up using.
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I've installed the Ferrea valves in the AE101 head and got it ready for the flowbench. Unfortunately my shop laptop and USB > RS232 adapter is, you guessed it, at the FSAE shop. I'll have to either wait or order another if I'm going to get this head flowed!
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:50 pm

Aaaaand here's the difference between AE101 and AE111 intake ports!

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There is enough of a difference between the side walls of the ports that I wonder if duplicating an AE111 port on the AE101 head will be possible without running into other cavities in the head.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:50 pm

I spent time today with plasticine, shaping tools, and an untouched silvertop head. I'm starting with an untouched port. Next I'll open up a different port on the head and make changes such as the desperately needed short-side-radius, bowl, and valve-guide boss work. I'll then build up that port with plasticine and see what I can do.

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Here's where we are at now:
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Not done yet, but getting there.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby corolla_driver_86 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:07 pm

:o Wow. Amazing and impressive.

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby Elvin Wes » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Damn! going all out.

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby Monster » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:41 pm

And I thought I was anal on my motors. Lol, well done. Can't wait to see the outcome

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:25 pm

Thank you very much!

I took some time and started into a blacktop head as well.
This one isn't as far along. You can see it's not quite symmetric yet, but that's the beauty of doing this with plasticine first. As of right now I'm happier with how the blacktop port looks than the silvertop. It was easier to get this far with it. We'll see how it flows.
I need to find a macro lense for these, or better lighting. Or both.

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby vovinamer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:38 pm

Way to jump start the Build up logs on the new club4ag!!! subscribed for sure...

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby gbogho » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:05 am

Holy mackerel! Wow. So much attention to detail. What car are you developing these engines for?

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:28 am

gbogho wrote:Holy mackerel! Wow. So much attention to detail. What car are you developing these engines for?


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Right now it's a stock AE111 engine with AE101 throttles, as AE111 throttles are a bit on the big side for this application and I prefer throttle modulation. That's mated to a C60 six-speed out of a Celica equipped with an LSD and running on an MS3, previously a microsquirt running MS2x.
The hope is to have the new engine in and broken in, probably with a different head, before the first track day in late May. Barring that, at least the PonCams will go in.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby NikNes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:20 am

Crazy build and nice mr2!

Not sure I understand what you're doing here, but are the molds just so you have a better idea of what the port looks like for when you modify them? Maybe you can laser scan the molds and do some sweet CFD on them :)

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:31 pm

NikNes wrote:are the molds just so you have a better idea of what the port looks like for when you modify them?


Bingo.

Good point with the digitization. Digitizing a cylinder head is a bit more difficult, but this should be a breeze.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby dr.occa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:24 pm

Great study Jeff. The casting of the AE101 and AE111 intake ports and their easily noticeable differences are great to see as well as the angle from the mani to the intake ports.

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby abbeylives » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:16 pm

keep it up, awesome thread

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:53 pm

what are you trying to accomplish with this Jeff? wouldn't it have been easier to do as you originally attempted by adding some metal to the blacktop combustion chamber and reshaping it to add more quench then to attempt to reconstruct the intake ports?
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:32 am

gaijin_rokurunner wrote:what are you trying to accomplish with this Jeff? wouldn't it have been easier to do as you originally attempted by adding some metal to the blacktop combustion chamber and reshaping it to add more quench then to attempt to reconstruct the intake ports?


It is more ideal to have smaller combustion chambers than taller piston domes. The silvertop combustion chamber is, therefore, more suited to high compression than the blacktop chamber. I have several silvertop heads which have good guides and seats. Most blacktop heads I've had my hands on have needed guide work. All have needed seat work. I'm not in the mood to buy a bunch of heads until I find another good one.

I'm actually going to be finishing the welded head first. That is plan A. But I don't want to stop there. I think there's still improvement to be made in 20v ports.

Welding heads is an expensive, involved, and not always successful process. So I am looking at the silvertop heads as the starting canvas for this endeavor.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:54 am

I dont know if i agree with that...yamaha designed the blacktop differently then the silver with higher c/r for a reason...if the silvertop combustion chamber was ideal i think they would of retained the quench but they chose to redesign the ports, pistons, combustion chamber and rods....with them being the experts in engine design I think your take on the heads is more theory then substantial. Another thing your going to need a blacktop head to run the Ferrea valves i had designed.... the guide angle is different on the silvertop head vs the blacktop head so you will need some serious guide and seat work to get them to seal properly...I told you this a while ago and thus the reason i never advertised them as black/silvertop valves...
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:14 am

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Last edited by burdickjp on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:03 am

Yeah i wont get into an argument with you again we all know how the supertech valves turned out with your profile R&D....I think Ferrea the "valve experts" determined what was best on the blacktop head hence my flow numbers....the valves actually have two different part numbers and are angled differently ...two different combustion chambers two different piston designs...why do you think the silvertop piston has 5 valve reliefs and the blacktop 2? even with 10.7mm lift cams in my engine i have slightly deeper exhaust valves reliefs and half of a center intake valve relief..where the silvertop has a full faced valve relief...im not a rocket scientist but I am a cop and in my line of work we would consider that a clue! Do what you do Jeff your the expert with no expertise ....Ive asked before and you just deleted your username so since your back i ask again can i see something you have actually built that justifies any of your R&D.....anyone who looks at these pictures can determine that the valve angles are different between heads....even in the 2nd to last picture the blacktop pistons dome is wider then the silvertop yet if the angle were not different the center valve would still require a relief same as the side intake valves...Look at the Toda piston it accommodates both heads....which is why it has a center valve relief. Last picture is my engine...proves the center valve is angles as the sides thus the reason I dont have a full faced relief ...almost the exact same angle as the slop on the factory dome of the piston which is why the side valves didnt need reliefs
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby dr.occa » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:23 am

"You're both gorgeous, ladies." Keep it coming with the pictures please of your build/work Jeff. Thanks.

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:54 am

gaijin_rokurunner wrote:why do you think the silvertop piston has 5 valve reliefs and the blacktop 2?

The silvertop, like all 16v 4A-Gs, has such large valve reliefs to make it a non-interference engine. Toda's pistons are designed ts accommodate high-lift camshafts. This is common of all "off the shelf" pistons, and is why I don't use off the shelf aftermarket pistons. When making pistons, they might as well be made for the application, and make them match the camshafts.

gaijin_rokurunner wrote:anyone who looks at these pictures can determine that the valve angles are different between heads

That is called "valve inclusion angle" and has little to do with the valvetrain. It has to do with the chamber and port geometry.
Silvertop and Blacktop valves are interchangeable. Aftermarket valves will fit both heads. I have put valves in both heads.
Last edited by burdickjp on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:22 am

Tony.... do some research into "pressure recovery". The silvertop combustion chamber (or a welded, and ported blacktop chamber) is more conducive to "pressure recovery" then an unmodified blacktop chamber......

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and both of you are focusing on less than 1% or 2% of the total package.... Jeff... you know what I mean..... :ugeek:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:49 am

hahahaha thats a funny one so now your a liar again....well according to your old site you gave supertech all the guesstimation on the profile and requested them to be oversize in the center and when they were all done u realized they were crap and did a 180 on what you were promoting...as far as Ferrea is concerned you did not contribute to that design and they did not use any info you supposedly gave them so lets set the record straight now do you really think a world class valve maker would take feedback from an amateur so called engine builder....supertech made that mistake and look what happened ...actually Zeke thought u were a idiot because you were trying to convince him to use titanium valves from another engine to grind down and fit into this head ......actually heres some emails if you dont remember
Zeke,

Lets go what we discussed 5.5mm valve stems. Would it be
cheaper to do 5.5mm locks and retainers or cheaper to grind the valves
down to 5mm for the OEM locks and retainers?

The numbers I have in front of me for springs says they have a 20.6mm
OD and 14.4mm ID. That's from Supertech's catalog, and they've been
known to be wrong before. I'll have to dig out some springs to
measure. I believe this is similar to the intake side of the VAG 20v.

If we're only making the few sets for our specific use, I would
definitely like them 0.5-1mm long above the locator.

Do you have a form I can fill out to dictate dimensions, or would this do:


intake profile: 10-12deg 9mm radius
32deg back cut
intake seat width 1.7mm
1mm or wider margin
as flat faced as possible

exhaust profile: as similar to FA profile as possible


Well Jeff thats a wide margin of degree to guess what would improve the flow....especially when 10 degrees is stock so how would 10 degrees benefit in anyway and why would u recommend 10 degrees!. Additionally you were asking Zeke to grind the titanium valves to that profile margin which had nothing to do with the custom setup I had made.

Then the baby fit came when I told you I didnt like that Idea of using another cars valves to regrind and put into the 20v and you got upset telling me you cant help me anymore and sent zeke this email below which he sent to me

Just passing over some news from Jeff:
I have had to close the doors on the shop. Personal reasons were preventing me from doing a quality of work I'd expect as a customer, and I decided that was no way to conduct business. As much as I WANT to go forward with this, I can't. If you want any information, or an opinion on the application, I will be more than willing to help! You should have Tony's head in now. In your opinion, does our previous idea still stand? If Tony wants the titanium valves we can still make that happen.

So we are moving forward and I’ll keep you posted.

Thanks again


So please explain to me again how Ferrea used your R&D information to design my valves when you didnt provide anything except a guess on using some BS titanium valves u had!
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Re: Jeff's winter 2012 20v engine build

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:34 pm

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Last edited by burdickjp on Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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