HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Respeckmejulie
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HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Respeckmejulie » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:01 am

Good morning,

I have the following
Smallport head
Supertech stock sized valves
Supertech retainers
Supertech Keepers
Supertech dual valve springs.

My machinist states that he's not comfortable with the clearance between the top of the retainer, and the bottom of the bucket. He's afraid that the retainer is going to bump the bucket if it were to rock slightly (less than .005" clearance). I already called Supertech, but the guy on the phone was less than believable, (of course he stated that there's no issue with a .005" clearance, and that people have called to mention it before, but he's always told them it's ok.). My question is:

Has anyone had a failure (dropped valve) due to the low clearance between the retainer and the bucket?

Please let me know, thanks in advance!

Joel
My toyota collection: ''82 KP61, '87 AW11

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gotzoom?
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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby gotzoom? » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:00 pm

Get a set of largeport keepers and use those instead. They are slightly thicker than smallport ones or the ones provided by Supertech. There also seems to be some difference in the diameter hole on the Supertech retainers from one to the next. I've had two valves slip to the point where there was no longer an oil clearance to the cam and the valve stayed partially open at all times. The first one allowed the valve to slap back and forth, but I got lucky and caught it before the valve bent. If you start hearing a loud ticking sound, you're in trouble and you should stop running the engine until you swap to largeport keepers. I have swapped them without removing the head, but it's a hassle. FWIW, I have only had this happen on exhaust valves. Not quite sure why.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:44 pm

can't help with tight clearance...

Are you using the Supertech spring seats? I didn't see them mentioned in your parts list.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Respeckmejulie » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:19 pm

@gotzoom, THANKS! that's what we ended up doing, worked great. picked up an extra .020" clearance
@oldskewltoy, those washers?
My toyota collection: ''82 KP61, '87 AW11

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Rogue-AE95
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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:51 am

gotzoom? wrote:Get a set of largeport keepers and use those instead. They are slightly thicker than smallport ones or the ones provided by Supertech. There also seems to be some difference in the diameter hole on the Supertech retainers from one to the next. I've had two valves slip to the point where there was no longer an oil clearance to the cam and the valve stayed partially open at all times. The first one allowed the valve to slap back and forth, but I got lucky and caught it before the valve bent. If you start hearing a loud ticking sound, you're in trouble and you should stop running the engine until you swap to largeport keepers. I have swapped them without removing the head, but it's a hassle. FWIW, I have only had this happen on exhaust valves. Not quite sure why.


When you say keepers, you mean the two small pieces at the top end of the valve, that 'lock' into the round retainers? I was looking through the Toyota part numbers but didn't find a difference in part numbers for the keepers ("locks") or the retainers between large- and smallport. I'm curious about all of this because I have a set of brand new Supertech valves I was going to use with a smallport head, but I had bought new OEM keepers to use with OEM retainers (used). I was thinking about picking up all new retainers, but debated on Supertech ones (along with Supertech keepers) or OEM.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

Respeckmejulie
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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Respeckmejulie » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:06 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:
gotzoom? wrote:Get a set of largeport keepers and use those instead. They are slightly thicker than smallport ones or the ones provided by Supertech. There also seems to be some difference in the diameter hole on the Supertech retainers from one to the next. I've had two valves slip to the point where there was no longer an oil clearance to the cam and the valve stayed partially open at all times. The first one allowed the valve to slap back and forth, but I got lucky and caught it before the valve bent. If you start hearing a loud ticking sound, you're in trouble and you should stop running the engine until you swap to largeport keepers. I have swapped them without removing the head, but it's a hassle. FWIW, I have only had this happen on exhaust valves. Not quite sure why.


When you say keepers, you mean the two small pieces at the top end of the valve, that 'lock' into the round retainers? I was looking through the Toyota part numbers but didn't find a difference in part numbers for the keepers ("locks") or the retainers between large- and smallport. I'm curious about all of this because I have a set of brand new Supertech valves I was going to use with a smallport head, but I had bought new OEM keepers to use with OEM retainers (used). I was thinking about picking up all new retainers, but debated on Supertech ones (along with Supertech keepers) or OEM.


take it from me (and gotzoom), don't buy the supertech keepers!.
My toyota collection: ''82 KP61, '87 AW11

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby gotzoom? » Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:08 am

I assumed they were all the same too, but I compared random samples from a spare largeport head that I have with the smallport ones. The largeport ones are definitely thicker.

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:37 pm

OK thanks guys. Interesting, I'll have to look at some of the old OEM keepers I have around -vs- the set of new OEM keepers I bought a couple years ago (still sitting in their bag).
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:38 am

Respeckmejulie wrote:@oldskewltoy, those washers?


yes.... the steel washers. The spring will chew up the aluminum head without them.

As to valve keepers... toyodiy shows only one part number for the keepers from 1985 through 1991, so there can't be a difference from early to late 16V, unless???? Does the EPC show something else?
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby gotzoom? » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:47 am

Largeport keeper
Image

Smallport keeper
Image

I tried my best to measure from the same point on both keepers, but there is minimal difference when measuring in different locations. I don't know whether all smallport heads have smaller keepers, but the one that I worked with definitely does.

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:56 pm

I just checked all 32 of my brand new keepers/locks. They all measure close to that smaller measurement, 1.64-1.65mm on my dial calipers. Interesting. I'll have to check the used OEM ones that I have around.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby NH-hillbilly » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:40 am

i had the EXACT same issue with supertech valves/keepers/retainers on this motor and after being run in circles by Martin at supertech....I ended up using keepers I had lying around out of a mercedes benz. That got the stem protruding proud of the retainer .030"

they still wont admit there is a design issue with this product.

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby gotzoom? » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:42 am

I don't think there is a design issue. They intend for you to use all of their stuff together, not mix-n-match like all of us have done. My bet is that if you use their valves, their springs, retainers and keepers all together, everything lines up perfectly. I think they just need to make it clear that you should not use their keepers if you don't use their valves. I don't have any data on this though, it's just my opinion.

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Re: HELP! Supertech Retainer / stock buckets

Postby NH-hillbilly » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:50 am

no there is an issue with this particular product. I used their valves, their keepers, their retainers, and their springs. I'm an automotive machinist. I rebuild and machine cylinder heads on a daily basis.

EDIT: and the original poster used all supertech products as well.

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