Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:55 pm

Sounds like a good plan.

Luckily I have tomorrow off and Discount Tires is open tomorrow. It's only 1.5 miles away. Perfect for time for me to take the car out there and get the lock nuts off. I replaced the non locking lug nuts since the older ones were a bit rusted.

ImageImage

I also noticed that my floor pan gets super hot after around 30 minutes of driving. My exhaust headers aren't stock and don't have any heat shielding. I'm guessing this is why the floor pan is getting hot. Other than that, the entire engine bay gets pretty hot including the frame, battery, etc. Is this normal? Is there anything I can do to make it more comfortable in the cabin in the summer?

Image

The black parts are just rust converter. It was getting a little more rusted than I liked near the welds. I know the OEM exhausts has some heat shielding above and below the exhaust headers. Since this is a kind of custom 4-2-1 header, It's going to be a little tricky making heat shields for this. There isn't even any mounting points. Is heat wrapping any good? I heard it's a pain to get on or off.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:51 pm

aceforever wrote:Is heat wrapping any good?

Here is a recent thread regarding the problem of the floor getting uncomfortably
warm due to aftermarket headers. There are a number of possible solutions, some
easy and some quite difficult to implement. Woven fabric header wrapping tape is
widely used with varying results. I have read that it is easier to apply if soaked in
water first, but have no proof either way.

There are also high-tech reflective foils such as this one. Adhered to a heat shield
or simply stuck under the floor above the area of the exhaust, this should work well.

Image
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... ecID=11221

As it happens I am in the process of getting new headers for my car. At the moment
I am using the factory cast iron header and downpipe with factory heat shields. After
all welding is completed, the header is going to be ceramic coated to try and keep
the underhood temps down a bit. And yes, it always gets pretty hot under the hood
after you have been driving for a while.

My car is RHD so I have never noticed if the floor gets hot or not :) But if it turns
out to be a problem with the new exhaust, I will most likely look at adding a sheet
metal heat shield spaced 10mm under the floor.

Image

This kind of embossed aluminum heat shielding is also being used a lot theses days
so probably worth a look as well.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:01 am

Hahaha. That's definitely one good reason to drive a RHD AE86! I'm liking the bolt ability of the aluminum heat shielding. I'm worried about rust that might be unseen behind adhered foils. Are there heat shielding already cut out for the ae86?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:38 am

Ah, this thread has so much good knowledge about so many topics. So glad I'm subscribed. I'm also on the fence of heat wrapping my floor (preferred option by now, but hadn't thought it could generate rust?), since my car is LHD and my feet get quite toasty on trackdays... :D

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:32 am

aceforever wrote:Are there heat shielding already cut out for the ae86?

The formable embossed aluminum is used under a lot of modern vehicles,
and it may be possible to find pieces suitable for re-use in the junkyard.
I have never seen anyone offering pre-made heat shields for the AE86, so
there could be a business opportunity there :D

To be honest, I am hoping that the ceramic coating on the headers will be
enough for my car. If it turns out I need something more, I will have to take
a closer look at the options.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:17 am

So today I went took the 1.5 mile trek (small distance I know) to Discount Tires but I stalled out a bunch of times because I got nervous with all the other cars on busy streets around here.

They told me it was going to cost $67 to get all four off. But when service guy checked out the tires, he said it was too old for them to work on and they might be liable even if they didn't touch the tire at all. He did recommend for me to get a 12 point socket set and hammer it on if I was going to try getting them off myself.

So I tried calling another tire shop around here, Firestone. They wanted to charge me $50 PER lock. How hard can it be really. $50 per nut? Really? For $200 I could buy the tools myself and try getting it off and have tons of money left over :|

Anyways, I bought some 12 point socket set for $14 at the local auto parts store and am going to attempt to hammer them on and try to get them off myself.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:38 am

The 12point sockets are very hard to get on. After hammering for a good 20 minutes I decided to see if there's an easier alternative.

Perhaps this would work:
Image

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:41 pm

The socket has thread in them.
Image

I was able to get one nut off with these. I turned slowly at an angle to get it off.
Image

Getting the lock lug off the socket was pretty hard, I just hammered away at the socket and held the lug with a vice grip.
Image

I'm having trouble getting the next three off. I think either I'm not hammering it in enough or the thread on the inside of the socket is worn out.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:44 pm

I only ever saw the hammering a 12-point socket on trick work on the
5-sided or 7-sided type of lock nut. But Eric the Car Guy shows it working
on a round nut. I guess the secret to success is getting exactly the right
size of socket, and give it a good whack.

That socket with the thread inside should have a tapered LH thread so
that it winds itself onto the lock nut as you turn the socket anti-clockwise
to undo the lock nut. If any hammering war required, it would only be to
let the thread get a start at biting into the lock nut. I see that this tool
is designed to be used with a rattle gun running in reverse, so pressing
it onto the lock nut until the thread grabs is the trick part.

Any chance you could get one of these on the nut ?

Image

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Did you look everywhere for the lock nut key ? In the glove box and
around the spare wheel ? In the storage pockets at either side of the trunk
and in the tool roll if there is one ?
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Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:24 am

Unfortunately the previous owner lost it before he sold me the car. A pipe wrench won't fit as the clearance around the nut is limited. If there was only a vertical version of that pipe tool. I think the issue with this nut is that the outer part of the nut isn't rough. With the other nut I got off, I think the threads locked on only because there was a rusty patch on the outside. Maybe I need to make the outside rougher? Right now they're like chromed or something.

EDIT: Maybe I should look at buying a key. It'll take some searching but perhaps that's easier?

The markings on it says "816 12X1.5 RH/T"

The first number is probably which pattern it is. 12X1.5 is probably the thread type

Found this. I'm not sure if it's just coincidence that the number 816 is one of the patterns.
http://www.amazon.com/AUDI-FACTORY-WHEE ... 4RQR83C57P

WAIT THIS ONE!!!! http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Lugnut-30-2131 ... al_qh_dp_i ? Am I right?

Found something else that was in stock.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RG ... ge_o00_s00

It's a different type of lug nut, but the markings on it is 816 12X1.5 RH/T as well. And it was only $10.77. Damn I should have checked this sooner. Oh well! You live and learn. :) Let's hope it's the right one!

----

Finding it wasn't easy. The previous owner told me they were Gorilla brand. However looking at all the different shapes, Gorilla doesn't make the inset pattern nuts like these. They also have "Gorilla" markings on them. These only had the pattern numbers.
Image

McGard had something similar however, they have "MCGARD" markings on them as well.
Image

I knew it would be some lessor known brand.

After a ton of different search terms later, when I searched for "816 wheel lock", the 2nd link was an amazon Q and A page for a Mr. Lugnut product.
Image

Unfortunately the product number 30-2131 was really hard to find in stock. The last purchase feedback was in 2011. I tried on ebay, also no luck. So I started looking for different lug nuts with the same key pattern on ebay.

Found one that looked promising. However the picture quality was not high enough quality for me to look at the markings. I searched the same part number on amazon and found a better quality picture. And to my amazement it's the same markings!
Image
Last edited by aceforever on Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:20 pm

I'm trying to figure out how the charcoal canister is hooked up. I noticed that there were gases building up in the fuel tank. Anytime I open the gas tank there is a lot of hissing sounds. I presume this is because of the canister not hooked up?

I found some pictures of how the canister hooks up on google images.
Image

Also found a forum post about someone trying to remove EGR.
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=49805
Here's a picture from the thread that shows the original hookup.
Image

It seems like in both pictures the canister hooks up to a BVSV that goes to a EGR. I'm not sure what either of these are. Based on the forum thread, it seems like it's related to emissions? Can I just hook up the canister to the vacuum box, or would that damage the map sensor?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:27 pm

You don't have an Exhaust Gas Recirculation system (EGR) and I don't see
any practical way of fitting one with ITB's. Better hope that emissions testing
is not required in your state !!

The charcoak canister is supposed to accumulate gasoline fumes venting from
the gas tank while the engine is off, and then release them into the intake to
be burned when the engine is running. If pressure is building up in the tank,
the vent line from the tank to the engine bay must be capped/plugged. If the
canister is connected to the line, the outlet of the canister must be capped.

The canister has a one-way valve in the base that allows air to be drawn thru
the canister by the engine for purging the accumulated fumes. On later model
cars there will be an ECU controlled solenoid valve that opens to the inlet
manifold when the engine is running. On the AE86 there is a BVSV, which
I understand is a Bimetallic Vacuum Switching Valve. Apparently this is heated
by the engine cooling water so that it opens once the engine warms up.

So you have a choice. Find and install a BVSV or grab one of the OEM AE86
electric idle-up valves and wire that to the ignition. That will push your idle
up a 100rpm or so (less if you put a resrictor in the hose). Maybe you could
get the Haltech to only switch it on after the engine hits a certain temperature ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/H ... tvacum.jpg

And yeah... finding a new set of lock nuts with the same key is a good idea :D

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm

Since the car is 30 years old, I don't have emissions rules on it.

So how does the canister hook up? The smaller vacuum nipple on the top is what I'm guessing is ultimately pulled into the intake.

What's does the other two hoses go to? (The bigger top hose and the bottom hose) I'm trying to understand how air flows through it and maybe engineer my own solution.

I'll have to look up how EGRs work too as I'm not very familiar with it. You mentioned there isn't a practical way, why's that? Is it because no plenum?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:48 pm

Ah, so EGRs are used to keep combustion temps under 2500F to keep nitrogen oxide variants down.

Does that mean most ITBs don't really have EGRs without a plenum? It'd be hard to have an intake hole for the EGR so that it's evenly dispersed into all the cylinders.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:55 pm

aceforever wrote:So how does the canister hook up?

Not really my strong suit, but since it is a topic that comes up now
and then, I made a new thread with a bit of information. My car
never had a canister... the AE86's sold new here just had a vent to
atmosphere out the top of the tank.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:32 am

aceforever wrote:Does that mean most ITBs don't really have EGRs without a plenum?

That may well be the reason the 20V 4AGE engine was not sold in the US.
The US has very tough emissions regulations, and sometimes a foreign
manufacturer will choose to offer a different engine for the US market,
on the basis that it will be easier to get that particular engine to pass
emissions testing.

I've never seen EGR on a JDM 4AGE, but it could probably be implemented
on a 20V by using the ISCV ports in the intake manifold. Implementing it on
your engine would require a lot of custom engineering, and if you don't have
to pass emissions, I wouldn't even think about it !!!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:50 am

I've been reading up the manual for how to hook up auxiliary electric idle-up valves.

And to my amazement, there's a bunch of things I can run off of the ECU!

Image

I think I can either use:

12.5 Electric Thermo Fan Control (TF)
or
12.6 Electric Intercooler Fan Control (IF)

Both have input fields of "Switch On Temp" and "Switch Off Temp" and are only restricted to the number of output wires. I'm not sure what the difference between Digital out and PWM. I'm guessing Digital out is either 5v or 12v or 0v, whereas PWM is some kind of wave? What would a normal electric idle-up valve use? Perhaps I can go to a junkyard and find one? Seems like it would be common on all makes and models.

EDIT: Seems like at the local junkyard, they cost around $28. New ones on ebay is around the same price or lower. Is there any other electrically controlled valves I can use? Would an EGR valve be too big? Based on some videos about the Evap Canister, it seems like the canister usually has it's own electrically controlled valve. So I might be able to get one of those so it costs less.

EDIT2: looks like they're called "Purge valves"

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:48 am

There is a little 12V solenoid valve on the TVIS plate if you have one
in your box of bits. I think that one lets air in to release the vacuum servo,
but you might be able to make it work if you can hook a hose to the filter end.

Image

And digital means that the valve is either ON or OFF. PWM is for when you
want to modulate a valve... for example I am using it to control my ISCV
where ON/OFF control would not work. So a digital thermofan type output
would be what you need for a purge valve.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: $28 for a small solenoid valve :shock: Does he rob stage coaches as well ?
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:12 am

Oh!!! You know what, I think I have one of those. I'll check in a little bit.

I just realized what the whole setup there does. It takes vacuum from the intake runners and runs through the lower cylinder then through the solenoid valve then to the controller for the butterfly valves. Vacuum really plays a huge role in automotive control things!

EDIT: yup I do have it. However I used the wire and plug for it to hook up the coolant temperature sensor for the ECU. I'd need to make my own DIY plug that might potentially short or head to the junk yard to get a plug.

Also, the $28 is for an ISCV, which looks like $100 or so on ebay. I suppose it's more complex as there are individual steps right?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:59 am

Looking at the 4age service manual, I'm guessing the solenoid is opened by default

Here's the section:
Image

If idling is 0-3V, and the valve should be opened so that there is vacuum pulling on the cylinder that closes the TVIS butterflies. Wouldn't that mean the solenoid is opened by default? I can test it to be sure.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:11 am

aceforever wrote:Wouldn't that mean the solenoid is opened by default?

MAJOR EDIT: Re-write to correct some misunderstandings of mine on
how the TVIS system works on an AE86 :oops:

Here is the type of valve used on the 4AGE, together with the diagram
showing which ports are connected when the valve is energised.

Image
Image

The valve is a 3-way 12V solenoid switched by the ECU at approx 4200 rpm.
Below 4200rpm = Power ON = TVIS closed, F connected to E and vent closed
Above 4200rpm = Power OFF = TVIS open, E connected to vent and F closed

Although not specifically mentioned in the documentation, I believe that
the vacuum reservoir has a one-way valve on the inlet. This holds vacuum
when the engine is switched off, so that at the next start there is vacuum
available to close the TVIS plates and help engine starting.

More information here...
http://turbomr2.com/MR2/Reference/TVIS/TVIS.htm

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:34 pm

Wow I was looking for that in the manual last night. Couldn't find any information. Thanks!

I did not know that it was a 3 way valve.

I'm going to head to the junkyard today to see if I can find any of those purge valves. Is there anything I should try to find? Like an electric ISCV?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:14 pm

I was just at a junkyard and got this piece 90080-91186. Cost: $3.49. not bad!

I got it off a 2000s Toyota corolla. I had to go underneath the car to rip it off. Ended up with tons of crud on my face. Hope this is the right part!

EDIT: here's a picture
Image

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:55 pm

One of these... wonder how it works ?

Image

If it works like this one...

Image

... the two ports should not be connected when the power of off,
and connected when the power is on. So a basic 2-way solenoid valve
or VSV in Toyota speak. Realistic price too :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:05 pm

Thanks!

Does it matter whether I connect up the canister to E or F? Seems like it wouldn't since the solenoid would close the valve.

Based on the 1998 Toyota Corolla EWD, Black is + and Red is -.
Image

I already tried it jumping it in the junk yard with my home made 12V battery (9V + 2x AA). And it does click when I jump it.

EDIT:
I like how some aspects of the car I can just pick and pull from random Toyota cars to improve my car. For example, this and the ignitor. I find it very amusing.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:22 am

aceforever wrote:Does it matter whether I connect up the canister to E or F?

I would suggest connecting F to engine vacuum and E to the canister.
That way the pressure differential accross the valve will help to keep it
closed while de-energised.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:37 pm

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll hook it up that way.

Well, the lug nut set came. However they weren't the same as pictured. Had pattern 808, overall looked poorer quality, and had a sour odor. :(

Asking a friend with a rattle gun to see if he can help me get the nuts off with the screw lock nut remover.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:32 pm

Well good news and bad news.

Good news, we got 2 lock nuts off with the threaded socket using a rattle gun.

Bad news, the last left front lock nut won't come off. My friend says he knows a shop that might have a lock key for these things. Hope I get lucky!

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby shagymc » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:32 am

I recently wrapped my headers in the fiberglass wrap and the wetting I think keeps the small fiberglas strands from getting everywhere more so than making it easier to work with. Make sure if you go this route you wear longsleeve shirt and glove and keep exposed skin to a minimum. The small fibers WILL give you fiberglass splinters which really sucks for a few days until they work themselves out.

Image

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:24 am

Thanks for the tip shagymc! I didn't know how unpleasant installing it will be. Any downsides other than that?

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