Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

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Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:22 am

CARBED 4AGE GROCERY LIST ESSENTIALS

This is not an exhaustive list in that I will not include ALL the options for specific components as then that would then nullify this post as being entitled "essentials". I leave the customizations to the individual(s)

1. Carb(s): dual sidedraughts, dual down draughts, single down draft 4 barrel/ 2 barrel
2. Intake Manifold for mounting your carb(s) of choice to the 4AGE head
3. HVLP (high-volume low-pressure) Electric Fuel Pump:
Webers - no more than 4 lbs of delivery
Mikuni's no more than 3.5 lbs of delivery
recommendations: carter 4070 or holley's red low pressure electric fuel pump
in-tank option e-fuel pumps: bosch 69476/carter P70250/airtex e8188
i highly advise against a mechanical fuel pump
4. Adjustable Low Pressure FPR (fuel pressure regulator) and FP Gauge (liquid filled, low increment recommended) e.g. Holley 12-408 or Malpassi which can be had on ebay or other vendors easily found on the internet.

---September 19, 2010---
when using the low pressure, non-bypass fpr from holley mount your gauge in one of the 3/8npt OUT ports (a 3/8" to 1/8" npt adapter can be used just for starters when "skinning that cat") for more consistent pressure reading.

---March 30, 2011---
**For those wanting to run the GTS factory fuel pump, the Aeromotive 13301 return fuel pressure regulator would be ideal. It's adjustable from 3-65psi. Again, this is a RETURN STYLE fuel pressure regulator. (10/4/2012) - I cannot confirm that this will be a working and trouble free route but the parts for attempting this method is here mentioned for individual consideration.

---December 14, 2011---
Please note also that nothing smaller than 3/8"(= 6AN fittings) FUEL line should be used for fuel delivery.

---February 29, 2012---
I have to re-iterate: go no smaller than 3/8" fuel line all the way from the tank -> fuel pump -> fpr -> carbs.

If you're going with a bypass fpr type maintain a 3/8" line for delivery and return. NO SMALLER.

**Also, do not attempt to use the Carter (P)4070 electric fuel pump with a bypass type regulator as the pump itself is already internally bypassed to maintain a no-higher-than 6-7psi amount of pressure in open flow. The carters should be coupled with a deadhead/dead-head type fpr. The inverse is also true: do not use a non-bypassed type electric fuel pump with a deadhead/dead-head fpr but only w/ a bypass type.

5. Throttle Linkage
6. Appropriate means of plugging the fuel injector ports (e.g. freeze plugs)
7. Corrective Fuel & Air Jets or a vendor that you can easily obtain them from
8. For spark please see the "IGNITION OPTIONS FOR CARBED 4AGE ENTHUSIASTS" section.


IGNITION OPTIONS FOR CARBED 4AGE ENTHUSIASTS

1. Use the stock blue top 4AGE distributor locked out at the timing of your choosing.
2. Use the stock blue top 4AGE distributor w/ the programmable MSD 6AL 2 p/n: 6421 or the Digital programmable 6AL-2 p/n: 6530. If you plan to use either the 6A or 6AL you'll need MSD p/n 8980/8981 timing curve "computers" which have been discontinued - to use the stock tach you will need to use MSD's p/n 8920 tach/fuel adapter(SR5) NOT the 8910EIS or 8910 which is intended for using the 6A/L in a fuel injected environment. The 8920 is for the magnetic pick-up leads that are used from the Blue Top Distributor. If using an aftermarket Tach then the 8920 is not necessary.

note* - the 8980 is a fixed timing curve. this means you would set your distributor timing at your intended full advance timing. the 8980 will retard it by 20° for your idle timing and max out at 20 degrees full advance by 3000 rpm.

note** - the 8981 is a "programmable" timing curve unit. it's still based on the same design of the 8980 BUT you get to dictate when timing advance starts and ends in your rpm range.

Unfortunately, both the 8980 & 8981 have been discontinued. Finding them 2nd hand are your best options for acquiring them.

3. Use the 4K distributor from a starlet. It will need to be adapted to mount up to the 4AGE head. You will also need the gear from a 4AGE distributor to replace the 4K's in order for it to spin off of the 4AGE exhaust cam.
4. IDS w/ megasquirt and crank tooth wheel and sensor. electromotive and other companies can provide you with good IDS setups.

MEGAJOLT LITE JR is yet another option which uses EDIS and your option of TPS or MAP. MEGAJOLT LITE JR does not allow for both simultaneously as of the posting of this thread. I've included this after taking a little bit of "heat" from an AEU86.ORG member about using the stock ECU for ignition which I personally advise against only because with the amount of work put into "rigging" it up you can easily go megajolt lite and have more programmable control. anyway, have at it. Hope this helps someone.

SILICON CHIPS - PROGRAMMABLE IGNITION SYSTEM - don't know much about it but you can read up on its details here. i have no experience with it what-so-ever just so you know. as far as DYI ignition systems, my vote's still for megajolt lite, jr.

ELECTROMOTIVE - XDI - another well known performance ignition system but using a "60-minus-2 tooth crank trigger wheel" for higher ignition definition ("...offering spark accuracy of ¼ degree of crankshaft rotation") and on the pricey side. still a great waste-spark choice with a programmable timing curve. read about it here.

other suggestions are welcome. i added this post in order to facilitate searches for other members who are interested.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:40 pm

I'm glad this wasn't lost. I gotta find where I put that diagram for integrating a 6AL to a 4AC engine harness.
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:13 pm

carbd7age wrote:I'm glad this wasn't lost. I gotta find where I put that diagram for integrating a 6AL to a 4AC engine harness.


Here

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:14 pm

Hey that's a better how to than the one on 4AC-powered. But that is to add a 6AL to a standard 4AC. The diagram I meant is for swapping a 4AGE with carbs into a 4AC car and using the 6AL and 4AGE distributor. This is it, I couldn't have done my swap without it:
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 pm

Ah, yes that diagram.

There's also this great one to reference by Master Chief from needfulthings.net.

Image

You would just replace the HEI module with the 6AL.

Here's the post with more information. An account is needed to access it though.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:53 pm

Ah yes I remember seeing that, too. Still, the easiest way to swap a 4AGE into a 4AC car is carbs and a 6AL! I love mine, even though it never leaves the garage. :oops:
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:35 pm

carbd7age wrote:...I love mine, even though it never leaves the garage. :oops:


How come!? :o

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:30 am

This or that. Crashed it first drive, now it's fixed and the battery is bad. Fuel pump was leaking, that's fixed. Need to sort out why my headlights turn on when the switch is off and turn off with the switch is on lol.
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 350nizmo » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:50 am

I guess ill be coming to you guys for questions and/or advice when i start building my 4age carb motor and installing is my ae86 SR5 hatch..lol

have about 80% of the parts ordered.
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:10 pm

Roy did you finally find some carbs?
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:22 pm

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 pm

carbd7age wrote:The original thread:
http://web.archive.org/web/201205080126 ... ead?id=359


Crazy man. The beast thread still lives, haha!

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:52 pm

I read a bunch of old stuff feeling nostalgic lol. Man I used to be dumb! Now I'm only slightly less dumb....
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:09 am

carbd7age wrote:I read a bunch of old stuff feeling nostalgic lol. Man I used to be dumb! Now I'm only slightly less dumb....


Funny, for me the more I learn, the more I learn how much I don't know ;).

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 350nizmo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:27 am

carbd7age wrote:Roy did you finally find some carbs?


yup, i found a full setup, bluetop manifold with dual solex carbs with linkage cable and filters. :D
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Zenki85 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:37 pm

350nizmo wrote:
carbd7age wrote:Roy did you finally find some carbs?


yup, i found a full setup, bluetop manifold with dual solex carbs with linkage cable and filters. :D


Have a picturee?
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:39 pm

Roy that reminds me I have a big filter box I need to modify. It's made by Ramair, it's for a BMW 2002 with twin DCOE's. It is spaced right, but the clips were pressed in from the wrong side. I gotta modify it to work. I'm running open stacks right now.
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 350nizmo » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:15 am

Zenki85 wrote:
350nizmo wrote:
carbd7age wrote:Roy did you finally find some carbs?


yup, i found a full setup, bluetop manifold with dual solex carbs with linkage cable and filters. :D


Have a picturee?



Ill take some pictures tonight and post them up afterwards. :D
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 350nizmo » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:36 am

for some reason i keep having issues posting pictures, so im gonna post the links with pictures...

here is the dual carb setup with bluetop manifold i picked up for my carb build...

http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470185
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470186
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470139
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby KonaTrueno723 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:06 am

350nizmo wrote:for some reason i keep having issues posting pictures, so im gonna post the links with pictures...

here is the dual carb setup with bluetop manifold i picked up for my carb build...

http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470185
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470186
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470139


Nice! Complete too..I want to get a setup like this one day.. And hey I got the DIY rear links & they went right in!
Works like a charm :D thanks again!

Mike
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 350nizmo » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:03 pm

KonaTrueno723 wrote:
350nizmo wrote:for some reason i keep having issues posting pictures, so im gonna post the links with pictures...

here is the dual carb setup with bluetop manifold i picked up for my carb build...

http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470185
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470186
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470139


Nice! Complete too..I want to get a setup like this one day.. And hey I got the DIY rear links & they went right in!
Works like a charm :D thanks again!

Mike



Hey Mike, im glad it worked out for you man.
it took me a bit to find this set up but the build is coming along as we speak. my 4age block is now at the machine shop getting balanced and crank getting polished. :D im definitely gonna have this motor ready and swapped into my 86 by may of this year so i can take it for Formula D in atlanta...
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby KonaTrueno723 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:04 am

350nizmo wrote:
KonaTrueno723 wrote:
350nizmo wrote:for some reason i keep having issues posting pictures, so im gonna post the links with pictures...

here is the dual carb setup with bluetop manifold i picked up for my carb build...

http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470185
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470186
http://240atlanta.com/forums/attachment ... 1359470139


Nice! Complete too..I want to get a setup like this one day.. And hey I got the DIY rear links & they went right in!
Works like a charm :D thanks again!

Mike



Hey Mike, im glad it worked out for you man.
it took me a bit to find this set up but the build is coming along as we speak. my 4age block is now at the machine shop getting balanced and crank getting polished. :D im definitely gonna have this motor ready and swapped into my 86 by may of this year so i can take it for Formula D in atlanta...


Sounds like a sweet build! Which reminds me I gotta get MY own block down to the machine shop too! & I just picked up a clean 42mm crank from hiro hatada & its gonna get worked on also. In the meantime I got my eyes set on a new set of dcoe's that someone's selling here locally! Find an intake & linkage kit then I'm set.. Yeehaw!
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby eightsixgts » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:06 pm

hey guys, where have you been looking for linkage kits for Weber carbs?

I've been around these parts and have my car running pretty good according to my butt dyno with my largeport Weber45 setup with 304/288 cams and 11:8.1 compresion, but I'm ready to delve a little deeper into getting these things tuned perfectly.

My current notes are:
140/F16/195 main
60/F9 idle
45 pump
no bleed

To date, I'm happiest with this setup, might give 200 airs a try but very happy with this. I've noticed some people in the past have modified the progressive circuit... what benefit would this have? Also, what about bleeder pumps, what purpose do those serve? I'm debating if I want to mess with my emulsion tubes or not... they're not exactly cheap. When I cruise with part-throttle my AFRs are on the rich side, and I understand the emulsion tubes can help with that.

What AFRs have you guys generally been tuning to at WOT?
Also, what kind of timing are you guys seeing at WOT?

Edit*- I did a little reading and I'm thinking that my idle air screws might need a little adjustment since I have such long duration cams. I was reading that if the car tends to read a little on the rich side at cruise, where the throttle plate isn't open very much, the carbs tend to run off the idle circuit. My idle circuit is notably on the richer side and with large ports and long duration cams this can be a bit of a trouble since the air velocity is much slower and lacking. I'm going to fudd with the idle air-bypass screws and see if I can get some results I want.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:26 pm

At highway speeds you should be around 3500-3700. Just barely into the mains but not really. Cruising around you're seeing very light load so you want to be more on the lean side rather than the rich side. I'd say 14s-15s and even 16s. 22R motors from the factory cruise on the lean side at 16s just to give you an idea.

Emulsion tubes are a little tricky. The more holes the more it'll aerate the fuel, and slow it down from entering into the venturi (low pressure) area. Now you can get an emulsion tube that has the same exact number of holes as your current ones but with a .5mm smaller diameter. You can than go with a bigger air corrector and smaller main. If you went with one with a slightly larger diameter than you'll need to go smaller on your air correctors and bigger on your mains. Also, the smaller diameter e-tube, the sooner you'll move into the main circuit and vice versa.

Depending on your lift, 47-55 is the most common range for the idle jets. The higher your lift, your idle jet will be more around 55.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby eightsixgts » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:04 pm

dr.occa wrote:At highway speeds you should be around 3500-3700. Just barely into the mains but not really. Cruising around you're seeing very light load so you want to be more on the lean side rather than the rich side. I'd say 14s-15s and even 16s. 22R motors from the factory cruise on the lean side at 16s just to give you an idea.

Emulsion tubes are a little tricky. The more holes the more it'll aerate the fuel, and slow it down from entering into the venturi (low pressure) area. Now you can get an emulsion tube that has the same exact number of holes as your current ones but with a .5mm smaller diameter. You can than go with a bigger air corrector and smaller main. If you went with one with a slightly larger diameter than you'll need to go smaller on your air correctors and bigger on your mains. Also, the smaller diameter e-tube, the sooner you'll move into the main circuit and vice versa.

Depending on your lift, 47-55 is the most common range for the idle jets. The higher your lift, your idle jet will be more around 55.


Occa!

Thanks for the response, I forgot to include the lift of the cams is 8.5. With the current idle jets I have now the idle is at a very steady 14-15AFR with the idles turned 1.75 out. When I'm in 5th gear cruising at 65mph with the stock 4.3 final I'm seeing AFRs around 12.5-13 which I really want to lean out. If I do the same 65mph in 4th gear I get a more comfortable AFR I'm actually looking for. I will actually be swapping to a 4.77 so maybe my issue won't be such a problem, but I still want to see if I can correct it a little bit. Tuning guides say you can get most carbs tuned to run well in a very general way, but if you're tuning for power, you're giving up mileage and drivability, and if you're tuning for mileage and drivability, you're giving up power. Oh well, I enjoy spending the time changing things up with these and taking notes so I'll be sure to continue to update with my findings.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:57 am

Don't mess with the e-tubes and try out a set of 200 air correctors.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:37 pm

Hey Jonas can you confirm or deny the compatibility of Weber DCOE linkage on Mikuni carbs? I couldn't find any mention of other brands on Redline's site, but I've seen online the bar dual kit works universally.

I couldn't get it to start yesterday, my fuel gauge reads just a touch under 3psi, I can hear the suction from the carbs inside the car, and the engine ran (just) before I crashed it. I reckon some rebuilds are in my future.
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:01 pm

carbd7age wrote:Hey Jonas can you confirm or deny the compatibility of Weber DCOE linkage on Mikuni carbs? I couldn't find any mention of other brands on Redline's site, but I've seen online the bar dual kit works universally.

I've used the bar & linkage arms but the tie rod arms don't work on the Mikuni throttle levers due to the fact that they usually have the pivot ball pressed on them. I went with Kay-Cee (KC) linkage arms if you can find them. Try ebay both US and UK.

Another option is zccjdm: http://www.zccjdm.com/catalog.php/azcar ... ES_#IMAGES

parts no. 1-5 & 10, 12 on the link above.

carbd7age wrote:I couldn't get it to start yesterday, my fuel gauge reads just a touch under 3psi, I can hear the suction from the carbs inside the car, and the engine ran (just) before I crashed it. I reckon some rebuilds are in my future.


Put one hand flat against the no.1 trumpet and another flat against the no.3 trumpet. Then have someone depress the pedal once and then try and start it.

Basically, you're using your hands like chokes. Remove your hands when it starts up and nurse the throttle to keep it alive until it idles on its own.

Hopefully that'll work.

If you have an adjustable fpr, try picking the pressure up before it warms up as it idles. If pressure won't pick up you may need to rebuild that fpr or replace it.


Also, check to make sure you have good spark on all 4 cyls.
Last edited by dr.occa on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby allencr » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:34 pm

The accelerator pumps will provide much more then enough fuel to start, don't pump the throttle more then twice, 4 times it's flooded for sure!
carbd7age wrote:couldn't get it to start yesterday, I reckon some rebuilds are in my future.


Carburetors never need to be rebuilt to get an engine to start. You would only be replacing the needle & seat and setting the float level and those barely affect startup. Run & idle better, yes. Start up, no.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby carbd7age » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:45 am

Great info, thanks guys! Regarding the linkage, it all works fine, it's just kinda rigged with a Toyota throttle horn welded to the throttle arms in between the carbs. Not ideal, but functional, it puts strain on the cable (SR5) and I don't like that. A longer cable would fix that.

When my 4AC Weber carb would flood, I would have a raw fuel smell coming out the back, but I very well could still be flooding these Mikunis. I'll try the choke idea. I installed a cable for the starter pumps but that didn't seem to make a difference, unless they were flooding it whereas before it wasn't getting enough.

The FPR is a Holley adjustable joint, I can rebuild, adjust, or replace pretty easy. I just got a promotion to a salary position so I don't have free time any more, but we'll see what I can do.
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