Group buy on high quality header feeler

yoshimitsuspeed
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Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:29 pm

Header interest thread.

So phanist sent me his silk road 4-2-1 Silk road header and wants me to make him something based off of it that will work with power steering. If I make him a one off it will be quite time consuming and take a good bit of the work it would take to make a production piece. In past threads there has been a moderate amount of interest in a quality header so I am hoping I can drum up enough interest to just make this a production piece.
This will be based off the header shown in post 7 in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8180. phanist was hoping for a little more high rise look and I agree that it would be nice to have a little more curve and at least maybe come up a little bit above the flange before dropping down. Making sure it will clear everything without having an 86 here will be my biggest challenge but with a little help it should be doable.

If I can get 5 people to put down a deposit I will throw this into production. I am not looking for deposits right now. Just looking for anyone who wants one enough to commit. If I get enough interest will move forward on getting a more researched and accurate price point and start putting everything together. At that point I will need deposits to move forward to the final design and fabrication.
I think I will offer two options. One would be mild steel and will probably be in the $400 to $700 range. I also offer ceramic coatings which could be applied.
Option two would be Stainless steel and will probably run somewhere between $800 and $1200.
Like I said, once we get enough interest and a minimum level of committed people I will move forward on pricing and picking materials and come up with a more accurate quote. Otherwise I will just quote out a one off for phanist
Since phanist is pretty much committed already we just need four more people.
If you are 100% sure you would be down for the pre purchase then let me know.
If anyone is very interested but unable to be part of the pre purchase immediately let me know that too. The more interest this sees the more likely it will be to happen. More importantly the more people that order the more the cost comes down so jumping on this now helps everyone else.

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jondee86
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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby jondee86 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:13 pm

From reading various header threads over the last few years, I believe
that the average club4AG'er sees things like this...

Looks... gotta be high-rise or look like a basket of snakes
Price... gotta be competitive with the cheapest shiney crap on Ebay
Fitment... gotta clear the floor and the steering
EGR bung... gotta be at least an option for those who need one
Material... doesn't matter so long as it is shiney
Compatibility... needs to fit 16V and 20V in RWD layout
Clearance... must be able to use on a 16V with dissy
Performance... oh yeah, that too if it don't cost too much

Which creates a bit of a dilemma for local manufacture. As soon as you
start to add quality features, there is a danger of pricing yourself out of the
volume market. I have just spent some time looking around here in NZ to
see what is available. I have ended up ordering an inexpensive make to
order 4>2>1 and paying extra for proper merges.

I have a feeling you are going to have to build a prototype and get it
installed and dyno'd on an AE86. Once it can be seen that there are no
fitment issues, and the header gives a measurable performance gain
over OBX, you only have the price issue to overcome. Good luck.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:48 pm

Unfortunately I have already made enough things on my dime for the 4A AW11/AE86 communities that have not made money to know that isn't an option on a big project like this.
Maybe once I get my dyno setup and start making enough money to take on projects just for funzies. Till then I need to know it's going to do better than break even from the get go.
I appreciate your input and it parallels my experiences for the most part. In the header threads it always seems like there were people interested in a quality header.
Unfortunately this design would not be dyno guaranteed or proven but then again it's been a long time since I saw one that was.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:22 pm

Up top ... People jump in on this....
It a pain in da ass to steer in the parking lot with your manual rack setup....

This is the chance to get performance with comfort

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby ManjuGrip » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:34 am

So are you saying that the Silk Road 4-2-1 header clears a manual rack?

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:07 am

no

but it look like it have the same clearance of the 4-1 silk road that some people have ..

back to the original topic .... i be the first to buy this product when available and test it and even dyno it too.......

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:06 am

As always... it really depends on the specs........
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:23 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:As always... it really depends on the specs........


I am open to suggestions on specs. I would not be going as crazy with development as we were talking about in Jeffs thread but I do know you have some knowledge on good designs for the FR mani so I appreciate any input.

One of the biggest advantages of doing a group buy is I can put more work into the development. If I end up making a one off for phanist it will take me more time and I will have to cut and weld each bend, fine tune each joint for proper fitup, make more welds etc.
If I got the initial commitment and deposits the first thing I would do is get one of these prototyping kits.
http://www.icengineworks.com/icewmain.htm

Then I could lay out the exhaust, take pics, make sure everything will clear, make sure the runner lengths are where we want them and all that. Then I can get the profile to a mandrel bender who can make the piece with multiple bends in one piece like the one in the above pic. Then I could make a jig and then the time that went into each piece would be considerably less.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:32 am

Bump

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idreamofdrifting
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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby idreamofdrifting » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:40 am

So how much are we talking? I might be down for one.....
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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:27 pm

I have been so busy lately this has been put on the back burner for a while but I need to get back at it soon.

I need to make the prototype to come up with an exact number but I am thinking around $400-$600 for mild steel and probably around $1200 for Stainless.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby stalk86 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:32 pm

Any news on this???

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:00 pm

Been moving forward here and there. Found out the 86 I bought for mockup purposes didn't come with motor mounts so now I have to find some so I can get the motor located before I start designing.
I put the word out a few places hoping people would have spares they would donate to the project but it looks like I'm going to have to buy them. I found a set of the steel mounts. Waiting to hear back on price shipped.
I have one of the rubber pads the mounts sit on but it's stripped. I could probably use it but need at least one more so preferably would like to just find a set.
For this I could just use wood blocks the right thickness or something to locate it properly. Might end up doing that if I get the steel mounts before finding pads.
I have an idea that will look great if I can get it to fit but it's going to be tight. We will see.
Hope too have more progress in the next few weeks if I can get these mounts.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:42 pm

Does this mean i would see some exhaust manifold soon ? Lol
There is two part the ae86 engine mount that i know of.. The rubber part that will be mate to the cross member and the steel mount bracket.. But i bet you know more then me.
:)

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:50 am

phanist wrote:Does this mean i would see some exhaust manifold soon ? Lol
There is two part the ae86 engine mount that i know of.. The rubber part that will be mate to the cross member and the steel mount bracket.. But i bet you know more then me.
:)


If I can get these mounts lol. I was hoping I could get someone to donate an extra set they had or hook me. Didn't hear back on that so I started looking for people selling them. Have found a couple people selling but no one has gotten back to me.
Once I get those I can at least get started.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:50 pm

I am going to start working on this again soon.
I need input on how I should end the header going into the rest of the exhaust system. Do most systems use the stock mount point and flange?

phanist sent me his Silk road header. It would be easiest if I can just use it's flange style and location. Would that work?

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:27 pm

The majority use the stock flange location, but don't use the stock style flange. Even the trd header has a flat flange.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:09 pm

Update us Sir !!!!
Let see some photo type at lease

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:11 pm

Lol I was going to try to upload some pics of todays progress earlier but I ended up needing to help fix a friends computer.
I should have pics tomorrow. Need as many opinions as I can get on weather I should keep pursuing this current design.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Thu May 01, 2014 2:28 am

Yehaaaa finally you got something going... Let see it...

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby MisterJerk » Thu May 01, 2014 8:00 am

would it fit if you used another flange as a spacer? just a thought.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 01, 2014 11:27 am

Okay guys so I have spent a lot of time trying to think of how to make a highrise header that looks good. I can be a little anal about flow and symmetry and finding something that I thought looked good has been very difficult trying to work around the 16v dizzy.

Naturally the easiest is something like this.
Image

Or this.
Image

But I just couldn't come up with anything I thought would really stand out.

Finally I came up with an idea that I think will be the nicest looking AE86 header I have seen. There is one catch. It will require 16 valve owners to switch to an AW11 style dizzy with a custom heat shield to protect the back side.
I have only done the first two in order to save time and materials and to give you guys an idea of where I'm going and see if people think it's worth continuing.
The rear two cyls will follow a similar profile but will ge squished forward as much as possible to clear the brake booster and rear firewall.
Image
Image
More pics here.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... uploaded=9

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Thu May 01, 2014 12:20 pm

yoshi

you are doing a 4-2-1 not a 4-1 right?

andothing thing the engine mount bracket on your mock up car.... pic above there should be a sandwich like metal plate between the metal bracket to block and hard rubber to subframe.. i think it about 2-5mm thick...that can be a factor if clearing the PS rack steering etc.....so make your self a a spacer for mockup LOL maybe most guy running around without that extra piece any how....

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 01, 2014 12:52 pm

I only had one rubber mount pad but I measured it and made the wooden block the same thickness for that side.

So there is a spacer under the mount on the drivers side? If so can anyone get me an exact thickness or send me one?
Is there anything under the mount on the passengers side?
Everything looked like it lined up right so I figured it was right. I am kind of winging it since this thing was completely disassembled when I got it so thanks for looking out and let me know if you see anything else that could be an issue.
Yes the plan is 4-2-1 although this design could get converted to 4-1 pretty easily. Right now I am just focused on getting the upper portion right. I am also hoping the primaries will be long enough to merge to the secondaries before passing between the frame and u joint.


phanist wrote:yoshi

you are doing a 4-2-1 not a 4-1 right?

andothing thing the engine mount bracket on your mock up car.... pic above there should be a sandwich like metal plate between the metal bracket to block and hard rubber to subframe.. i think it about 2-5mm thick...that can be a factor if clearing the PS rack steering etc.....so make your self a a spacer for mockup LOL maybe most guy running around without that extra piece any how....

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu May 01, 2014 1:02 pm

IIRC there isn't anything between the x member bracket and engine mount/bushing, but there is a cover plate (roughly 1/8" thick) between the engine mount/bushings and block brackets.

It looks cool so far, but I don't think the aesthetics and high rise/long tube aspect is worth the trade-off with proximity to the dizzy. The dizzy is already in a terrible spot from the factory, and that layout is just providing more surface are for radiant heat on the dizzy.

I think a tri y with a more basic layout similar to what's pictured in your first post would be ideal. Hopefully not too big to benefit a stock or mildly tuned 16v.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby phanist » Thu May 01, 2014 1:22 pm

Yes sir that cover plate between them is what i describe... I just dont know what is the proper term to call it. :)

Yoshi i remember both passenger and driver side have that plate.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 01, 2014 1:58 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:IIRC there isn't anything between the x member bracket and engine mount/bushing, but there is a cover plate (roughly 1/8" thick) between the engine mount/bushings and block brackets.

It looks cool so far, but I don't think the aesthetics and high rise/long tube aspect is worth the trade-off with proximity to the dizzy. The dizzy is already in a terrible spot from the factory, and that layout is just providing more surface are for radiant heat on the dizzy.

I think a tri y with a more basic layout similar to what's pictured in your first post would be ideal. Hopefully not too big to benefit a stock or mildly tuned 16v.


Unfortunately the vast majority of votes go for some form of high rise. I think for a semi production mani it has the best odds of selling.
I can custom make manifolds to any specs a customer wants though.

With a proper heat shield radiant heat should not be an issue.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu May 01, 2014 2:38 pm

Understandable.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the requirement to switch dizzy's could be a deterrent for buyers.

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 01, 2014 3:23 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:Understandable.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the requirement to switch dizzy's could be a deterrent for buyers.


Yeah that's the main reason for my stopping here and seeing what's preferred by more people.

a. This option with nice flow and highish rise but requires AW11 dizzy and custom heat shield

b. an offset cluster#^!@3d highrise like the pics above

c. Something not highrise but with a nice look and flow


Does anyone have any pics of the spacers on the mounts?

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Re: Group buy on high quality header feeler

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu May 01, 2014 5:12 pm

(same on both sides):
Image

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