The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

M.fate
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The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:05 pm

I know this has been brought up most likely a billon times, and some how after reading all billion of those post; twice I am no closer to knowing wtf so is someone could explain it like I'm 5yo

What sw20 shocks are used for a short stroke coilover setup, Front or rear? (edit: sw20 fronts or sw20 rears in my strut tubes)


If someone how has done it could chime in it would be sweet.

Oh and while we are here is there a way to find my spring rate? I bought unused second hand ground control kit and have no idea what rate the springs are.

Thank you and post pics if youve done this mod because I like them and they are pretty.

Sean
Last edited by M.fate on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The 4ag'er formally known as nlt4ac
Kingsland GA

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BakaBaka
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby BakaBaka » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:47 am

SW20 are for the fronts. I believe old school Camaro's are for the rear. This is for the KYB AGX applications using factory/aftermarket lowering springs. Not sure if they are the same for coilover applications.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby grappletech » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:13 am

Yes, there is a way to check your spring rate... check here

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums ... rates-are/

Here is a conversion chart between Kg/MM (kilograms per millimeter) to Lb/In (pounds per inch). I figured you would need this because a lot of companies describe their spring rates in pounds per inch and most corolla guys are used to kilograms per millimeter. Anyways, here ya go:


kg/mm to lbs/in
-----------------------------
16 = 896
15 = 840
14 = 784
13 = 728
12 = 672
11 = 616
10 = 560
9.0 = 504
8.5 = 476
8.0 = 448
7.5 = 420
7.0 = 392
6.5 = 364
6.0 = 336
5.5 = 308
5.0 = 280
4.5 = 252
4.0 = 224
3.0 = 168
2.0 = 112

This was all passed to me from a good friend and a genius at this stuff.... Enjoy
87 GTS Coupe Super Duper Clean
87 GTS Coupe Beams 3sge (under construction cuz I'm slow and lazy and broke-FML)
87 SR5 Coupe Shell. (Sold)
86 SR5 Hatch Shell (waiting on a 20v or BEAMS to come cheaply. hell maybe even a 4agze?!)

M.fate
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:42 pm

Ok the spring rate info is sweet. Thank you.

Now I wasn't clear with my first question. I ment do I use sw20 fronts or sw20 rears for the mod. Going to edit the my first post to reflect that
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby BakaBaka » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:55 am

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty confident that SW20 are meant for the fronts. T3 use to (or still does) sell front coilover setups using SW20 AGX shocks.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby grappletech » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:19 am

I got all of that info from Jeonsah.... Dude is a Genius!
87 GTS Coupe Super Duper Clean
87 GTS Coupe Beams 3sge (under construction cuz I'm slow and lazy and broke-FML)
87 SR5 Coupe Shell. (Sold)
86 SR5 Hatch Shell (waiting on a 20v or BEAMS to come cheaply. hell maybe even a 4agze?!)

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby carbd7age » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:50 am

I'm picking up what you're putting down. You need FRONT SW20 inserts to go on the FRONT of your ae86 short stroke and you need REAR Camaro shocks for the REAR of your ae86.
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby OG UTOTMO » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:14 pm

ok seems like nobody is really paying attn.... what you need is the sw20 rears to put in your strut tube...

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby carbd7age » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:35 pm

OG UTOTMO wrote:ok seems like nobody is really paying attn.... what you need is the sw20 rears to put in your strut tube...

Put SW20 rears in AE86 front? Are you sure they aren't front inserts? I don't remember now....
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby jondee86 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:28 pm

The SW20 uses inserts front and rear. The rear inserts are longer than the front ones,
and are most likely valved a little firmer than the fronts (TRD SW20 inserts are).
KYB # 765016 AGX SW20 rear cartridge length 360mm 172 stroke
KYB # 765015 AGX SW20 front cartridge length 332mm 172 stroke

Most people use the SW20 front inserts for the front struts on an AE86 (cut 40mm and
use a 20 mm spacer under the cartridge). I have them and they work OK.

There... that wasn't so difficult, was it ?

Cheers... jondee86

Edited because of smartass fail :oops:
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby Duy- » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:30 pm

^ are you POSITIVE about that?

im pretty sure if you cut 40 mm off your strut tube, theres absolutely no way the SW20 rear insert would fit into an ae86 front spindle

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby jondee86 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:41 pm

Hahahahah.... I fkn hate it when that happens. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Ya... you are right. It is the # 765015 FRONT cartridges that work with
a 40mm cut. If you wanted to use the rear struts you could probably measure
carefully and cut exactly what you need (no need for a spacer). Good thing
someone is checking my work... last thing I want to do is add to the confusion
that already exists on this topic.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby carbd7age » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:18 am

Ok that's what I thought. Front goes in the front.
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:52 am

I recently disassembled some t3 front coilovers for ae86 (40mm shortened strut casings and kyb 765015 inserts). T3 used a 6mm spacer on the bottom and the insert is captive inside the strut tube. This set also had oem gland nuts with an oem style rubber seal inside which limits travel and spaces the inert down about 1cm from the top. It might be possible to use a taller bottom spacer if the seal was removed from the oem gland nut, but this is just a guess. I've never tried.

Point of the story is always take measurements and know the dimensions of what you're dealing with before sizing your insert spacers and cutting your strut tubes. There's too much hearsay on the topic.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby Duy- » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:12 pm

I've ran
tokico hts
sw20 agx front
sw20 agx rear
sw20 koni front
sw20 koni rear
ae92 front
koni race 8610-1437

they're all different body heights, even the sw20 agx vs koni

unless you're running the sw20 rear, cutting 40mm makes sense because it can fit the agx front sw20 perfectly, and for the rest you can use washers either at the top or bottom. for the koni race I used a washer at the top, but now my cars max height is extremely low because of the stroke height.
the extra gap is to allow me to put a 20mm spacer at the bottom to lift the shock up, raising my overall car height. I'm glad I didn't measure and cut 60mm because then I wouldn't have that clearance to play with

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby jondee86 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:30 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:I recently disassembled some t3 front coilovers for ae86 (40mm shortened strut casings
and kyb 765015 inserts). T3 used a 6mm spacer on the bottom and the insert is captive
inside the strut tube. This set also had oem gland nuts with an oem style rubber seal inside
which limits travel and spaces the inert down about 1cm from the top. It might be possible
to use a taller bottom spacer if the seal was removed from the oem gland nut, but this is
just a guess. I've never tried.

Point of the story is always take measurements and know the dimensions of what you're
dealing with before sizing your insert spacers and cutting your strut tubes. There's too
much hearsay on the topic.


Totally agree with this. The "20mm spacer" is a generalisation, and can be +/- depending
on how you make your spacer, and what you do for the gland nut. Since inserts don't need
the OEM oil seal, I removed that, and then had the inside diameter of the gland nut opened
up on a lathe to properly cup the top of the insert. From memory I think this let the insert
sit 10 to 12mm higher in the strut.

At the bottom on the inside of the strut, there is a chamfer/bevel that leaves a smaller
flat area in the centre. I found a piece of alluminum bar that just fitted inside the base
of the AGX insert, and bevelled the bottom of the spacer to match the bevel on the inside
of the strut. My spacer then sat flat on the very bottom of the strut, and It did finish up at
about 20 to 21mm thick.

If your install is in any way different (gland nut, insert, spacer), measure everything twice,
and then check it again before you start cutting :)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:52 am

Computing....computing.... Ok so I can go sw20 front or rear. fronts require a cut, a weld and a spacer and rears just drop in? Why deal with cut weld space if you don't need to? Or am I still missing something?
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:20 am

M.fate wrote:... Or am I still missing something?


Yes. The information I have gathered tells me that a standard length AE86 sealed
cartridge insert for the front strut is 400mm long. An AGX SW20 rear insert is said
to be 360mm long (I haven't been able to confirm that). So, for the purposes of
discussion, lets just say that if you put the SW20 rear insert into your standard
strut, you will have around 40mm of up and down slop :) The usual way of dealing
with this is to fit a spacer under the insert to support it, and allow it to be clamped
in position by the gland nut.

This is not a great conversion. If you read this writeup from the club4AG archives,
http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pag ... ersion.htm
...you will see what I mean. Read the last part several times... I did :) And I did a
crap load of measuring and figuring before I even started taking the struts off my
car to modify. When you start chopping and changing things around, you need to
pretty much know what the end result is going to be before you start. How much
you want to lower your car, spring rates and shock dimensions (cartridge size and
stroke).

You need to finish up with a certain amounts of bump and rebound travel, and if
you get it wrong, your car will handle like a pig... an expensive pig !!! So either do
the calculations, or find a setup that you know works well, and copy it exactly.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:29 pm

Thank you.... I sometimes think I might be the smartest retard. I read and read and read but some how unless I do it or there's pretty pictures I don't fully understand. But you sir made it clear now. I already have everything but the shocks to do this. I was about to click buy and a panic washed over me " are you buying the right ****?" better ask smarter car guys first I thought. So I did and you are and I will now go click buy cross my fingers that I don't totally f this up :D
The 4ag'er formally known as nlt4ac
Kingsland GA

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:19 am

:D
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby truenoboy » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:19 pm

jondee86 wrote:
M.fate wrote:... Or am I still missing something?


Yes. The information I have gathered tells me that a standard length AE86 sealed
cartridge insert for the front strut is 400mm long. An AGX SW20 rear insert is said
to be 360mm long (I haven't been able to confirm that). So, for the purposes of
discussion, lets just say that if you put the SW20 rear insert into your standard
strut, you will have around 40mm of up and down slop :) The usual way of dealing
with this is to fit a spacer under the insert to support it, and allow it to be clamped
in position by the gland nut.

This is not a great conversion. If you read this writeup from the club4AG archives,
http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pag ... ersion.htm
...you will see what I mean. Read the last part several times... I did :) And I did a
crap load of measuring and figuring before I even started taking the struts off my
car to modify. When you start chopping and changing things around, you need to
pretty much know what the end result is going to be before you start. How much
you want to lower your car, spring rates and shock dimensions (cartridge size and
stroke).

You need to finish up with a certain amounts of bump and rebound travel, and if
you get it wrong, your car will handle like a pig... an expensive pig !!! So either do
the calculations, or find a setup that you know works well, and copy it exactly.

Cheers... jondee86


I've read Moto's edit over and over and I just don't get it. Can somebody please explain as I'm confused. In moto's post, he says the TRD stroke is 165mm vs. the OEM stock stroke, which is 186mm. That's a difference of 21mm. In his drawing below that though, he shows stock strut case and damper with no spacer, and a stock strut case and TRD damper needing a 60mm spacer. If the difference between the 2 dampers is 21mm, how is the space 60mm in the same strut case? Without understanding this, I can't understand how the spacer is 20mm in a 40mm shortened strut case.

What I really need to understand is the OEM strut case length, OEM damper cartridge length, and TRD cartridge length.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby jondee86 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:15 am

Because sometimes pictures are worth a lot of words :)

Image

The standard OEM cartridge length is around 400mm, and if we use the KONI SW20 front
insert as an example, the cartridge length is around 340mm. Thus, ignoring such variables
as gland nut modifications and spacer design, the difference is a nice round 60mm. My
data shows the OEM cartridge stroke as 190mm and the SW20 cartridge stroke as 172mm
which is only 18mm difference. Why there isn't 30mm difference (half the difference in
carteidge length) I can only put down to design differences between manufacturers.

Looking at a numbers of different inserts, there is no direct correlation betwwen cartridge
length variation, and stroke length variation. So don't try and find one ;)

Cheers... jondee86

EDIT: The pic didn't like being resized, so here is a link to a better copy...
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae32 ... 5a6465.gif
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby truenoboy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:24 am

jondee86 wrote:Because sometimes pictures are worth a lot of words :)

Image

The standard OEM cartridge length is around 400mm, and if we use the KONI SW20 front
insert as an example, the cartridge length is around 340mm. Thus, ignoring such variables
as gland nut modifications and spacer design, the difference is a nice round 60mm. My
data shows the OEM cartridge stroke as 190mm and the SW20 cartridge stroke as 172mm
which is only 18mm difference. Why there isn't 30mm difference (half the difference in
carteidge length) I can only put down to design differences between manufacturers.

Looking at a numbers of different inserts, there is no direct correlation betwwen cartridge
length variation, and stroke length variation. So don't try and find one ;)

Cheers... jondee86

EDIT: The pic didn't like being resized, so here is a link to a better copy...
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae32 ... 5a6465.gif


The pictures didn't really help , but your explanation definitely helped clear it up for me. Thanks man!

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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby M.fate » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:12 am

So I know its been some time since I first posted but you know... life and stuff

I want to thank every one who helped me with this... sadly its was not enough to stop me from being dumb

After reading everything posted I was very confident what to do. I got sw20 rears and I planed on cutting out 30mm and having a 10mm +/- spacer but i ended up cutting the full 40mm out...$#%* the insert sat nearly even with the top of the strut housing and the gland nut could on get one and a half threads on.

So I bought some gland nuts from T3

Image

had a guy at work machine them down on the inside to fit around the shock (he did this only after giving the worst directions ever given, to his land at the end of a road with no sign, that i only drove down out of frustration of being lost. so i could pick up a trailer full of rotten bug infested wood from the 50+ trees he cut down for no apparent reason... the wood was so bad i just drove in to the woods and unloaded it next to a creek)

Image

They look good

Image

but i am nervous that it will handle poorly with the lack of a spacer (an expensive pig ) but it will be months before i know that I guess ill cross that road when i get there. this was my first real mod project everything before this has been cosmetic or bolt on i enjoyed doing it and hope to do more things like it.
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Re: The question that gets asked. #284 sw20 in ae86

Postby RobertAnthony » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:58 pm

Hello I am Garrett Robert from Club 4ag. I have a pair of Shortened strut housing What do i need to do to finish the Conversion to a Completed assembly
426hemiroadrunner@comcast.net
Thanks Garrett

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