I am entirely new to imports need advice.

2007 rollex
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I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby 2007 rollex » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:13 pm

I have always been more of a domestic kinda person. Ive never had anything against them I just dont like FWD. Ive always liked the hatch corollas and would like to build one.

Here are My expectations for the car. I intend to use it heavily on the track, and some on the street.

How hard is it to get between 170 and 200whp

I read that some of these 4ages can turn 11k is this true? If so which variant.

THE CAR MUST BE AS LIGHT AS POSSIBLE AND THE MOTOR MUST BE NA.

Im sure ill have many questions in the future as the project progresses But any advice on finding one, problems to look for, etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby SidewaysGts » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:02 am

I read that some of these 4ages can turn 11k is this true? If so which variant.


No variant can, no factory variant at least. The best of the best race engines have seen these rpms (up to 12k, actually albeit more rarely than the 10-11k)), but even amongst race engines its uncommon- Especially when the motor is used in an actual "car" (realistically only some of the formula-carts have ever regularly had engines of this type). Most of the race-going ae86s (ie n2) use 4ages that spin to 9-10,000 rpms.

The block for the 4age, despite being cast iron, is actually relatively weak for what it is. Above the 9-10k rpm range the engine experiences some nasty harmonics- The result is flex that is nearly unavoidable. The formula karts (formula atlantic, group a, etc) use custom beefed up valve covers and oil pans in an attempt to strengthen and support the block as best they can (granted the karts also use the engine for hard mounting suspension components) to reduce the flexing as much as they can- But even they still flex. The flex happens just around the crank journals (of no surprise) and quickly warps the bearings out of true. Bearing life on these motors is measured in literal hours- and are replaced quite frequently.

170 is a bit more "doable" but will still require a lot of money. Your EASIEST bet is to swap in a 20v 4age and go from there. A completely stock blacktop 20v 4age will see you at about 130-140 whp (rated at about 170 crank)- Up from the 100 whp'ish youd see out most stock *healthy* 16vs (healthy being the key word, If youre still running the factory engine Id be willing ot bet many horses have escaped the ranch or been sent off to the glue factory by now. youre probably in the low 90whp range). A good exhaust, some nice velocity stacks, a way to tune it, some larger cams, and a good bit of money can see you up to about 160-170 whp "practically" enough. To go beyond that will require digging into the head and doing some valve work, using even larger cams, and more rpms to make use of these larger cams. This is where it gets expensive, and fast. For what its worth, if youre going to go THIS far, id suggest using a 16v instead of a 20v- The 20v head is -brilliant- for factory'ish levels, but as you up the cams and rpms the 3 inlet valves become less ideal vs the 2 inlets on the 16v due to increased "dead" surface area. The 16v is generally viewed as "superior" for higher rpms.

My honest recommendation if you want close to 200 NA whp? Swap in factory honda s2000 motor and call it done. Far more reliable, practical, and cheaper than getting a 4age of any description even near that kind of power.

Hopefully this answered some of your questions. If you have more feel free to let me know and Ill do my best to answer wherever I can.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby 2007 rollex » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:34 pm

I would like to keep it toyota but an f20c sounds like a sick nasty idea. How about an frs drivetrain swap has that been done yet?
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby BlackStar » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:16 pm

frs drivetrain? how deep are your pockets?

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby SidewaysGts » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:54 am

The f20 is indeed a sick nasty swap. 9000 rpms redline- Make 240 hp stock, which put the upper end of your goal to the wheels (around 200), & about 130+ pounds of torque at the wheels, not to mention they have one of the best 6 speeds around (The input on the transmissions is actually reduced by gear, which is why they shift so brilliantly). Factory s2000s use a 4.3 ratio as well, so the gearing mates perfectly with a factory gts rear end. Because of the popularity theres already a few companies that produce kits to put these things in the car (Most still require you to notch/reweld the cross member, work a line for the clutch hydraulics, and a driveshaft- but bfd).

You can pick up the motor+trans for a few grand easily enough. An frs drivetrain would be "neat" no doubt, but would pose far more headaches, more fabrication, cost a lot more, and be slower.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:07 pm

You could go with a 7AGE, a local shop successfully makes 7AGEs plants 250hp(200-210whp) and 170#/ft of torque, all under 10,000 rpm. Cost isn't cheap....

You can build a decent 7AGE that will make 160 whp for around $6000
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby SidewaysGts » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:36 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:You could go with a 7AGE, a local shop successfully makes 7AGEs plants 250hp(200-210whp) and 170#/ft of torque, all under 10,000 rpm. Cost isn't cheap....

You can build a decent 7AGE that will make 160 whp for around $6000


Yowch, sounds a bit pricey. For that kind of money I'd rather do a f20 swap I think. Though I must admit I've always fancied the idea of a 20v 7age. Considering a relatively factory bt will net you 130-140 whp, I cant help but wonder what a 20v 7age would net you with some minor mods. Im pretty ignant on them sadly.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:29 am

SidewaysGts wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:You could go with a 7AGE, a local shop successfully makes 7AGEs plants 250hp(200-210whp) and 170#/ft of torque, all under 10,000 rpm. Cost isn't cheap....

You can build a decent 7AGE that will make 160 whp for around $6000


Yowch, sounds a bit pricey. For that kind of money I'd rather do a f20 swap I think. Though I must admit I've always fancied the idea of a 20v 7age. Considering a relatively factory bt will net you 130-140 whp, I cant help but wonder what a 20v 7age would net you with some minor mods. Im pretty ignant on them sadly.



the 20V head is mostly myth......

there is a C4AG member with an 83x83 built using a blacktop head that is planting in the mid 250hp range... but @ a cost well above $10,000 - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026

in stock form the blacktop makes about 165hp... stock compression is about 11 to 1, stock cam is equivalent to a 264 type camshaft, stock management is quite capable.

In stock form a 16V is well under 11 to 1, cams are well under 264 type, management is... well just about garbage. Build a similar engine to a blacktop(11 to 1, 264 cams, decent management) but use a 16V smallport... and you'll get very similar numbers......
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:53 pm

Out of curiosity, why must it be NA?

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby 2007 rollex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:10 pm

Weight, and power delivery. I enjoy the way they run I have had Blown/boosted cars in the past, and im out of the phase of trying to go as fast as i can. Im keeping my Boss NA as well shooting for 500whp.
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby 2007 rollex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:12 pm

Also how much does an f20 swap run? That sounds like a filthy idea.
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby SidewaysGts » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:24 am

2007 rollex wrote:Also how much does an f20 swap run? That sounds like a filthy idea.


Depends a -lot- on who you know and what you can have done.

The price of the engine and "most" of what you need varies relatively wildly- but BALLPARK? Expect to pay in the 3500ish range for the engine/harness/ecu/trans- If you watch out you can PROBABLY find a setup that still has the transmission end of the driveshaft connected to the trans (quite often theyre just cut). Youll need (well, want) this for the swap to make yourself a custom driveshaft to bolt to whatever rear end youre using. This is the most I would personally spend in todays market- I have seen "all of this" go for far, FAR cheaper however- Closer to 2k- So it pays to watch out.

JSP make one of the most readily available "practical" mounting kits im aware of personally, but its still not perfect. The kit sets you back 650 bucks, and with it you get the trans mount, motor mounts, and subframe spacers. Because of the size of the transmission what most people attempting this swap ended up doing was cutting out the factory transmission tunnel entirely, and fabricating up a new one. The idea behind these subframe spacers is they slightly lift the chassis up off the crossmember and give you a bit more room under the car- Negating the need to remove the transmission tunnel. You still need to persuade it with a hammer slightly and just notch where the shifter comes through, but at least your not fabricating an entirely new tunnel. Youll also need to notch the crossmember/oil pan for clearance with this particular kit. The rest is pretty straight forward, custom plumbing for the radiator, clutch lines, routing the exhaust, etc. If you run a stock ecu/harness youll have to find a way around the factory immobilizer- Which can be done but is just one more "issue" to deal with- But its far cheaper/easier (for most) than going with a full standalone ecu.

So expect to pay 4500 bucks just for "materials"- Then the rest is however much that fabrication costs you. If you can do it yourself, or get it done for cheap through someone you know- Youll save a fair bit of money. Relatively cheap when you consider youre getting a motor that will reliably make 200+whp for well over 100+ thousand miles spinning happily to 9000 rpms.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby AIRWOLF » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:31 pm

SidewaysGts wrote:
2007 rollex wrote:Also how much does an f20 swap run? That sounds like a filthy idea.


Depends a -lot- on who you know and what you can have done.

The price of the engine and "most" of what you need varies relatively wildly- but BALLPARK? Expect to pay in the 3500ish range for the engine/harness/ecu/trans- If you watch out you can PROBABLY find a setup that still has the transmission end of the driveshaft connected to the trans (quite often theyre just cut). Youll need (well, want) this for the swap to make yourself a custom driveshaft to bolt to whatever rear end youre using. This is the most I would personally spend in todays market- I have seen "all of this" go for far, FAR cheaper however- Closer to 2k- So it pays to watch out.

JSP make one of the most readily available "practical" mounting kits im aware of personally, but its still not perfect. The kit sets you back 650 bucks, and with it you get the trans mount, motor mounts, and subframe spacers. Because of the size of the transmission what most people attempting this swap ended up doing was cutting out the factory transmission tunnel entirely, and fabricating up a new one. The idea behind these subframe spacers is they slightly lift the chassis up off the crossmember and give you a bit more room under the car- Negating the need to remove the transmission tunnel. You still need to persuade it with a hammer slightly and just notch where the shifter comes through, but at least your not fabricating an entirely new tunnel. Youll also need to notch the crossmember/oil pan for clearance with this particular kit. The rest is pretty straight forward, custom plumbing for the radiator, clutch lines, routing the exhaust, etc. If you run a stock ecu/harness youll have to find a way around the factory immobilizer- Which can be done but is just one more "issue" to deal with- But its far cheaper/easier (for most) than going with a full standalone ecu.

So expect to pay 4500 bucks just for "materials"- Then the rest is however much that fabrication costs you. If you can do it yourself, or get it done for cheap through someone you know- Youll save a fair bit of money. Relatively cheap when you consider youre getting a motor that will reliably make 200+whp for well over 100+ thousand miles spinning happily to 9000 rpms.



What's not perfect about the jsp kit? Not trying to debate here but I'm curious to see the pitfalls of not having to cut the transmission tunnel?
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby milchmann » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:06 am

2007 rollex wrote:How about an frs drivetrain swap has that been done yet?


The frame rails on the AE86 are a few inches to narrow for the FR-S/BRZ motor. You could make it work if you wanted to tube the front of the car, but I would only consider that for a car with light frame damage up front.

AIRWOLF wrote:What's not perfect about the jsp kit? Not trying to debate here but I'm curious to see the pitfalls of not having to cut the transmission tunnel?


Lowering the cross member significantly throws off the suspension geometry. You can get the toe and camber correct, but caster and other dynamic effects will never be right.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:13 am

2007 rollex wrote:Weight, and power delivery. I enjoy the way they run I have had Blown/boosted cars in the past, and im out of the phase of trying to go as fast as i can. Im keeping my Boss NA as well shooting for 500whp.


Just remember a 200 hp turbo 4A will have a broader more usable power band than a 200hp NA 4A.
Most people who have a bad impression of boosted motors come from slapping a massive turbo on their car and needing to wait all day for it to spool.

By omitting boost as an option you are omitting some of the most cost effective and practical ways to make power.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby gotzoom? » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:53 am

It sounds like you haven't driven an AE86 with a relatively fresh 4AGE engine in it. You really should drive one and decide if you really want to go gonzo on it. The car is plenty fun with stock power or with minor mods. My 99 MIata sits in the driveway housing spiders while my Corolla is on track. You don't need stupid power in these cars to have a lot of fun in them.

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:43 am

gotzoom? wrote:It sounds like you haven't driven an AE86 with a relatively fresh 4AGE engine in it. You really should drive one and decide if you really want to go gonzo on it. The car is plenty fun with stock power or with minor mods. My 99 MIata sits in the driveway housing spiders while my Corolla is on track. You don't need stupid power in these cars to have a lot of fun in them.



this.....


I originally came from muscle cars and pony cars... migrated to Euro-trash..... and have settled with these sweet little cars... :mrgreen:

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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby AIRWOLF » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:03 pm

milchmann wrote:
2007 rollex wrote:How about an frs drivetrain swap has that been done yet?


The frame rails on the AE86 are a few inches to narrow for the FR-S/BRZ motor. You could make it work if you wanted to tube the front of the car, but I would only consider that for a car with light frame damage up front.

AIRWOLF wrote:What's not perfect about the jsp kit? Not trying to debate here but I'm curious to see the pitfalls of not having to cut the transmission tunnel?


Lowering the cross member significantly throws off the suspension geometry. You can get the toe and camber correct, but caster and other dynamic effects will never be right.



I thought it wasn't lowered but cut? Because from the looks of what jsp does, I thought cutting was the only big item?

Any feedback on how it drives even though the suspension geometry isn't original? I ask because I was intrigued by the f20 swap but now...?
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Re: I am entirely new to imports need advice.

Postby milchmann » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:05 pm

AIRWOLF wrote:I thought it wasn't lowered but cut? Because from the looks of what jsp does, I thought cutting was the only big item?

Any feedback on how it drives even though the suspension geometry isn't original? I ask because I was intrigued by the f20 swap but now...?


You have to do both. The sub frame is lowered approximately 50mm or 2 inches, and the sub frame is also notched to fit the sump area of the oil pan. Notching the sub frame is a lot of work, but does not have any overall negative effects on the function of the car.