Flush fitment for AE86

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Flush fitment for AE86

Postby BosoHachi » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:43 am

Hey guys, I was curious as to know the "perfect wheel size" for an ae86. With the help of Club4ag's expertise I've made up my mind that I either want to run 195/50r15s or 205/50r15s. What would you guys say would be the ultimate wheel size (width/offset) to fill out my fenders w/o scrubbing? I was thinking maybe 15x8 -10 would do it? I'd love your input. As for ride height; she'll be running pretty low, not H3LL4FLU$H/$TANC3 low, but I'll be trying to get her center of gravity as low as possible (for track use) while still being a DD. Thanks guys! Oh and I'm fine with rolling my guards just to get that perfect fitment!

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby gotzoom? » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:06 am

You should do more research. "Stance" has nothing to do with track performance. If you want good performance on track, making the suspension work is most important. On our cars, the lower the car is, the worse things get for suspension performance. There is a reason that the factory race cars were run at the ride height that they did. If you want to go fast, you need suspenion movement. If you want to look good in a parking lot, it really doesn't matter what suspension components you use.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby BosoHachi » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:24 am

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not looking to "stance" an ae86, a stanced ae86 is a wasted ae86. I said I'll be trying to get the center of mass/gravity low to aid with cornering. I couldn't care less about what my car looks like in a parking lot, if i did I would buy a VW. If you couldn't figure it out, I wanted to get my 86 as wide and low as I can with stock or rolled guards for performance purposes.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby gotzoom? » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:12 am

Here are my observations after working on setting up an AE86 for track and time attack use for over a year.

1. The car has a high center of gravity
2. The car has a lot of unspring weight
3. The car is camber challenged (due to item #1)
4. The setup information that everyone uses is 25 years old and doesn't work very well with modern sticky tires.

Beyond that, I'm still learning what it takes to make one of these cars go fast. I think you're going the wrong direction with 15" diameter and wide wheels. Anything you can to to reduce the unspring weight on the car is a good thing. Unfortunately, your tire choices for smaller wheels are not very good. I believe the best overall balance is with 14" wheels. You can run the Dunlop Star Spec if you want a performance street tire and you have a decent selection of DOT-R tires available (I run the Nitto NT-01.) I think either a 7" wheel or 7.5" wheel is the right width, given the tire choices available. Choose an offset so that you don't make the scrub radius worse and don't run stagger wheels. Tire wear on the rear is terrible, due to having positive camber under cornering. You want to rotate your tires early and often to get as much use out of them before they cord on the outside shoulder. To make matters worse, the car scrubs speed in high speed corners (meaning, it doesn't carry corner speed very well.) In order to get quick times, you really have to manhandle the car and go bombing through the corners. This allows you to brake less and let the natural understeer of the car slow you down. In essence, I guess you would say that you need to enter a corner as if you were in a front drive car, but get on the gas way earlier than you would/could in a front drive car. I run 4.5 deg of front camber, which seems to be pretty good with my current setup. The contact patch seems right and I'm not adding to the outside wear with the fronts. Anything more than a 205 width tire is overkill unless you have significantly more power than stock or you're trying to build a nationally competitive autox car, imo.

Regarding the high cg, there just isn't much you can do. The materials used to build the car are heavy and even if you make the overall weight of the car lighter, you still have a tall car with a lot of weight up high. When you lower the car too much, all kinds of bad stuff happens and you will need to drastically redesign the rear of the car to avoid these problems. The upper rear links really start to bind up as you lower the car. They are no where close to parallel with the lower links. I'd estimate they are more like a 45 degree angle from the lower links. You also run in to problems with the rearend hitting the body of the car. The rear works pretty well if you use TRD rear springs and don't cut them. Toyota did a good job of figuring out what height to run, so I don't really see a need to change that, personally. I like to run about 1/4" of rake to make the car turn better.

Balance is much more important on this car than any other car I have set up. You can really feel it when your damping is not right. There is a fine line on setup between an understeery car and an oversteery car. Probably the best thing that I have done to my car is to install Whiteline adjustable front and rear swaybars. The front is a pain to adjust, but at least you can adjust it. I generally agree with the springrate ratio of 4:3 front to rear. 8kg/6kg is fine if you're running all season tires, but it is much to soft for DOT-R tires. Moving to a coilover up front will give you a wide range of spring choices. Hyperco makes 5.5" diameter springs that you can use in the rear, so you're pretty good there too. I'd also spend some money on quality shocks and struts. Unfortunately, the pony car shocks and struts that everyone recommends using are way overdampened for our lightweight cars. The car may feel ok with overdampened shocks, but it will not be fast and it will feel sluggish at the limit.

Since I mentioned braking, I feel that stock brake components are enough for the car. Install some quality track pads and high temp brake fluid and go for it. Unless your track has a lot of start-stop-start type corners (such as Buttonwillow Raceway in SoCal,) you will not need more than that. If you're on a track that has a lot of hard braking zones followed by medium to short striaghts, you might need brake ducts and an undertray to create low pressure just ahead of the firewall. If you're overheating brakes on a flowy course like Thunderhill Raceway in NorCal, you're using the brakes too much.

That's what I've learned so far. I hope that helps.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby idreamofdrifting » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:44 am

gotzoom? wrote:Here are my observations after working on setting up an AE86 for track and time attack use for over a year.

1. The car has a high center of gravity
2. The car has a lot of unspring weight
3. The car is camber challenged (due to item #1)
4. The setup information that everyone uses is 25 years old and doesn't work very well with modern sticky tires.

Beyond that, I'm still learning what it takes to make one of these cars go fast. I think you're going the wrong direction with 15" diameter and wide wheels. Anything you can to to reduce the unspring weight on the car is a good thing. Unfortunately, your tire choices for smaller wheels are not very good. I believe the best overall balance is with 14" wheels. You can run the Dunlop Star Spec if you want a performance street tire and you have a decent selection of DOT-R tires available (I run the Nitto NT-01.) I think either a 7" wheel or 7.5" wheel is the right width, given the tire choices available. Choose an offset so that you don't make the scrub radius worse and don't run stagger wheels. Tire wear on the rear is terrible, due to having positive camber under cornering. You want to rotate your tires early and often to get as much use out of them before they cord on the outside shoulder. To make matters worse, the car scrubs speed in high speed corners (meaning, it doesn't carry corner speed very well.) In order to get quick times, you really have to manhandle the car and go bombing through the corners. This allows you to brake less and let the natural understeer of the car slow you down. In essence, I guess you would say that you need to enter a corner as if you were in a front drive car, but get on the gas way earlier than you would/could in a front drive car. I run 4.5 deg of front camber, which seems to be pretty good with my current setup. The contact patch seems right and I'm not adding to the outside wear with the fronts. Anything more than a 205 width tire is overkill unless you have significantly more power than stock or you're trying to build a nationally competitive autox car, imo.

Regarding the high cg, there just isn't much you can do. The materials used to build the car are heavy and even if you make the overall weight of the car lighter, you still have a tall car with a lot of weight up high. When you lower the car too much, all kinds of bad stuff happens and you will need to drastically redesign the rear of the car to avoid these problems. The upper rear links really start to bind up as you lower the car. They are no where close to parallel with the lower links. I'd estimate they are more like a 45 degree angle from the lower links. You also run in to problems with the rearend hitting the body of the car. The rear works pretty well if you use TRD rear springs and don't cut them. Toyota did a good job of figuring out what height to run, so I don't really see a need to change that, personally. I like to run about 1/4" of rake to make the car turn better.

Balance is much more important on this car than any other car I have set up. You can really feel it when your damping is not right. There is a fine line on setup between an understeery car and an oversteery car. Probably the best thing that I have done to my car is to install Whiteline adjustable front and rear swaybars. The front is a pain to adjust, but at least you can adjust it. I generally agree with the springrate ratio of 4:3 front to rear. 8kg/6kg is fine if you're running all season tires, but it is much to soft for DOT-R tires. Moving to a coilover up front will give you a wide range of spring choices. Hyperco makes 5.5" diameter springs that you can use in the rear, so you're pretty good there too. I'd also spend some money on quality shocks and struts. Unfortunately, the pony car shocks and struts that everyone recommends using are way overdampened for our lightweight cars. The car may feel ok with overdampened shocks, but it will not be fast and it will feel sluggish at the limit.

Since I mentioned braking, I feel that stock brake components are enough for the car. Install some quality track pads and high temp brake fluid and go for it. Unless your track has a lot of start-stop-start type corners (such as Buttonwillow Raceway in SoCal,) you will not need more than that. If you're on a track that has a lot of hard braking zones followed by medium to short striaghts, you might need brake ducts and an undertray to create low pressure just ahead of the firewall. If you're overheating brakes on a flowy course like Thunderhill Raceway in NorCal, you're using the brakes too much.

That's what I've learned so far. I hope that helps.



+1 Excellent Info!
Image

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby BosoHachi » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:29 pm

gotzoom? wrote:Here are my observations after working on setting up an AE86 for track and time attack use for over a year.

1. The car has a high center of gravity
2. The car has a lot of unspring weight
3. The car is camber challenged (due to item #1)
4. The setup information that everyone uses is 25 years old and doesn't work very well with modern sticky tires.

Beyond that, I'm still learning what it takes to make one of these cars go fast. I think you're going the wrong direction with 15" diameter and wide wheels. Anything you can to to reduce the unspring weight on the car is a good thing. Unfortunately, your tire choices for smaller wheels are not very good. I believe the best overall balance is with 14" wheels. You can run the Dunlop Star Spec if you want a performance street tire and you have a decent selection of DOT-R tires available (I run the Nitto NT-01.) I think either a 7" wheel or 7.5" wheel is the right width, given the tire choices available. Choose an offset so that you don't make the scrub radius worse and don't run stagger wheels. Tire wear on the rear is terrible, due to having positive camber under cornering. You want to rotate your tires early and often to get as much use out of them before they cord on the outside shoulder. To make matters worse, the car scrubs speed in high speed corners (meaning, it doesn't carry corner speed very well.) In order to get quick times, you really have to manhandle the car and go bombing through the corners. This allows you to brake less and let the natural understeer of the car slow you down. In essence, I guess you would say that you need to enter a corner as if you were in a front drive car, but get on the gas way earlier than you would/could in a front drive car. I run 4.5 deg of front camber, which seems to be pretty good with my current setup. The contact patch seems right and I'm not adding to the outside wear with the fronts. Anything more than a 205 width tire is overkill unless you have significantly more power than stock or you're trying to build a nationally competitive autox car, imo.

Regarding the high cg, there just isn't much you can do. The materials used to build the car are heavy and even if you make the overall weight of the car lighter, you still have a tall car with a lot of weight up high. When you lower the car too much, all kinds of bad stuff happens and you will need to drastically redesign the rear of the car to avoid these problems. The upper rear links really start to bind up as you lower the car. They are no where close to parallel with the lower links. I'd estimate they are more like a 45 degree angle from the lower links. You also run in to problems with the rearend hitting the body of the car. The rear works pretty well if you use TRD rear springs and don't cut them. Toyota did a good job of figuring out what height to run, so I don't really see a need to change that, personally. I like to run about 1/4" of rake to make the car turn better.

Balance is much more important on this car than any other car I have set up. You can really feel it when your damping is not right. There is a fine line on setup between an understeery car and an oversteery car. Probably the best thing that I have done to my car is to install Whiteline adjustable front and rear swaybars. The front is a pain to adjust, but at least you can adjust it. I generally agree with the springrate ratio of 4:3 front to rear. 8kg/6kg is fine if you're running all season tires, but it is much to soft for DOT-R tires. Moving to a coilover up front will give you a wide range of spring choices. Hyperco makes 5.5" diameter springs that you can use in the rear, so you're pretty good there too. I'd also spend some money on quality shocks and struts. Unfortunately, the pony car shocks and struts that everyone recommends using are way overdampened for our lightweight cars. The car may feel ok with overdampened shocks, but it will not be fast and it will feel sluggish at the limit.

Since I mentioned braking, I feel that stock brake components are enough for the car. Install some quality track pads and high temp brake fluid and go for it. Unless your track has a lot of start-stop-start type corners (such as Buttonwillow Raceway in SoCal,) you will not need more than that. If you're on a track that has a lot of hard braking zones followed by medium to short striaghts, you might need brake ducts and an undertray to create low pressure just ahead of the firewall. If you're overheating brakes on a flowy course like Thunderhill Raceway in NorCal, you're using the brakes too much.

That's what I've learned so far. I hope that helps.


Thank you dude! Such an informative answer! So would you recommend 185s over 195s for an 86? Because I've had some trouble trying to find grippy street 195s for 14s :(

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:22 am

Falken Azenis rt615k and Dunlop Direzza Star Spec 2 are both available in 195/60/14. The Dunlops are also availabe in 185/60/14 iirc.
Last edited by Deuce Cam on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby gotzoom? » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:12 am

As mentioned by Deuce, those are really your only choices for a track type "street tire" in 14" size. I haven't used the RT615K, but the original RT615 was not very good in the wet. The Dunlops are good in the wet, so if you can find out how well the Falkens work in the wet, that might be a good deciding factor for you.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby BosoHachi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:58 pm

Thanks for the help guys! I guess I'll be running 14x7 0 et wheels with some Dunlop 195s at a stockish height. I really appreciate the help! :D

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby BosoHachi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:25 pm

Anything over 205 width is overkill


Got zoom, I just wanted to clarify what you meant by overkill. Do you mean it will cause the car to be imbalanced or it just cost more for no noticeable advantage?

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby Jimmee1990 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:26 am

Too wide a tyre and you won't be able to get enough load onto the tread face to heat it up. Less rubber takes less energy to heat and will warm up faster. Therefore too wide a tyre and you will have less grip than a more suitable size. A 185 or 195 width tyre is perfect for a fast street corolla. I also agree with not lowering the car much, helps a lot with bump steer also.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby gotzoom? » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:40 am

^ exactly.

I guess I should clarify what I mean about TRD springs. I was referring to the TRD race springs. I am running with the factory rear spring locations, and with the TRD rear springs, that puts the ride height so that the tread portion of the tire is just below the fender lip. I then set the front ride height to be 1/4" lower than the rear, since I have coilover sleeves on my front struts. That car looks plenty low, but it's no so low that I put on a light show from scraping, when driving at night. I do have to be careful going over speedbumps and when going up driveways. Having a good limited slip diff helps when going up driveways. Due to the rearend design, I always lift a tire when going up a steep driveway at an angle, and the lsd helps to get a little power to the wheel that is on the ground.

As mentioned by Jimmie, you will need to get roll center adjustments with the car lowered to the level that my car is. The steering rods and lower rear links are far from parallel to the road surface with the car lowered, so getting front rca (roll center adjustment) spacers between the strut and steering knuckle will help with bumpsteer. "Traction brackets" are what you need for the rear. T3 makes front rcas and TC Sportline makes quality, inexpensive traction brackets. The other problem you have with lowering the car is that the pinion angle changes. The lower the car, the more the pinion starts to point toward the ground. Ideally, you want to replace all five rear links with adjustable units. The TC Sportline traction brackets are designed to try to restore the factory pinion angle, so you might start with those and measure the pinion angle to see if it is in spec. If it is, you an avoid buying adjustable 4 links, unless you have some thrust angle that you want to be able to correct. You'll need an adjustable lateral link (panhard bar) regardless. I like the Whiteline panhard bar, personally, since it has poly bushings, which helps reduce the transmission of noise from the rearend to the cabin of the car. It's kind of a hassle to adjust, but you really only need to adjust it once. If you decide to get adjustable rear 4-links, you might want to consider the Godspeed links. They have a pretty innovative design. Their design includes spherical bearings, but they are bushed, so you get the benefit of decreased resistance to the type of motion the rearend encounters and also the sound deadening from bushings. The bearings are pressed in to a collar, so you also have the safety of the links remaining attached in case of bearing failure. My only complaint about their suspension parts is that they use paint rather than powder coating, so they are easy to chip and expose bare metal to the elements. For whatever reason, people tend to bag on their products, but they are the only ones addressing the problem of unspring weight in their swaybars, by offering a set of hollow bars and I really like their 4-link design. You can also make your own rear links pretty easily if you know how to weld. That's what I did on my silver car.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby OG UTOTMO » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:35 pm

Fyi frt fender is higher than d rears so look at ctr instead ok

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby ronny » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:11 pm

oh gawd...
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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby miswuevos » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:12 pm

woow good info right here, anybody has pics of how the ae86 looks with trd springs(8kg) and 6kg rear?

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby gotzoom? » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:36 am

Image

This is the only one I had where my car is not turning. I'm running 1/4" of rake, so the front is slightly lower than the rear.

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby SlideSexy » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:53 am

15"
15x8 et 0 with a 205/50. plenty of good tires for cheap in this size and looks very track acceptable.
15x8.5 et -4 with a 195/50. rolled fenders and a decent amount of front negative camber.

I'm not too up to par with 14" but i have seen:
14x8 -20ish
14x8.5 -13ish
not too sure about tires.
Image
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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby kuroki86 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:54 pm

i like 13s. i ran 13x7 - 25 meshies on my old corolla and it looked pimp. heres a pic of the front
Image

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Re: Flush fitment for AE86

Postby Illegal_Garage » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:36 pm

14x7 +-0 TE37
with V710 is probably the best you combo you can run for track times

Can run 5mm spacers is you feel you need a wider track

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