The best 4-AC upgrades...

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Ryusei_Date
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The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Wed May 15, 2013 10:58 am

Hey guys, so for now I abandoned my "SR5 to GT-S project", and I'm now wondering what are some darn good ways to up the power in my 4-AC. I was looking around at the general suggestions for mods and I'm considering the Schneider racing cams, but the ones for the 4-AC have different rev ranges, does mid rpm or low rpm make sense? I usually shift at 3k rpm so a mid range right? And then there are a few 32/36 weber carbs I've been looking at, but are they all compatible with the 4-AC or some? It's all so confusing to me, I've never tuned before so I don't know what the hell I'm doing XD

Suspension I guess I'll go tokico shocks and ground control springs, and any other suggestions would be cool, and brakes can come later I guess until stopping becomes an issue.

I'd appreciate anything I can get to get my tiny little 4-AC to match or surpass the 4-AGE

Thanks a lot guys! :mrgreen:
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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chohdog
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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby chohdog » Wed May 15, 2013 11:23 am

All of the normal things will add power. Cam+Carb+exhaust manifold.

Now that I've addressed your question, I'll follow with the 4AC is a massive waste of time. You're not going to surpass the 4AG let along match it without significant amount of time, money and resources.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby ronny » Wed May 15, 2013 11:38 am

WASTE OF TIME........ and waste of mONEY
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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Wed May 15, 2013 11:41 am

chohdog wrote:All of the normal things will add power. Cam+Carb+exhaust manifold.

Now that I've addressed your question, I'll follow with the 4AC is a massive waste of time. You're not going to surpass the 4AG let along match it without significant amount of time, money and resources.


I've heard some dudes can get their 4-AC up to 150 hp with just a nice tune-up and the addition of those things I mentioned, I don't have time right now anyway for an engine swap or anything drastic, I just wanna get a little more "oomph" out of what I got now. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I need to make do with what I got for now. Besides engine swaps are awful pricey too, I couldn't justify it right now, I doubt my boss would give me another raise and let me not go to work for a few months to swap out my engine XD
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby BlackStar » Wed May 15, 2013 11:51 am

Welcome to the club of lost low retruns
http://4ac-powered.forumotion.com/

weber 32/36 carb, its just all around better

If your crazy:
schinder cam,
double valve springs
custom exhaust manifold

I have an SR5, I plan on just doing the Weber, and put the rest of the money in suspension. Eventually, I would like to do a carb'd 4age, similar to carbd7age's build. Or a full fuel injectd swap.

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chohdog
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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby chohdog » Wed May 15, 2013 1:33 pm

I've heard some dudes can get their 4-AC up to 150 hp with just a nice tune-up and the addition of those things I mentioned


That's why you've just "heard" that, because it doesn't exist.

Anyways just enjoy the chassis. If you want to have that stuff go ahead, but the chassis can be fun with no power.

PLEASE ATTEND - PROFESSOR CHOH - seminar on 4ag - every thursday


HAHAHA. What's funny is that you know the same if not more than I do fooooo.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed May 15, 2013 2:16 pm

Ryusei_Date wrote:
chohdog wrote:I've heard some dudes can get their 4-AC up to 150 hp with just a nice tune-up and the addition of those things I mentioned, I don't have time right now anyway for an engine swap or anything drastic, I just wanna get a little more "oomph" out of what I got now. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I need to make do with what I got for now. Besides engine swaps are awful pricey too, I couldn't justify it right now,

I don't know exact prices for the parts you are looking at but I'd have to imagine they come close to a grand. If you have the skills to do the swap yourself then you could swap in a 4A for close to that. If you have the skills to do carbs and cams I'd imagine you have most the skills needed for the swap. Now I don't know the specific needs of your chassis so that's just a general assumption.

Get a smallport from a 92ish Prizm GSI for $300. Even if you can't or don't want to mess with the wiring I think you can have a harness made for about $500. That leaves you 200 for odds and ends. Total cost may be a bit more but your gains would be much more as well. Plus you would have EFI, get better gas mileage and have a much better platform to build upon in the future.
A 4AC to 4AG swap should not take months. If you had the harness made it should take days. For someone experienced probably a day or two. For someone pretty green maybe a couple weekends.
Now I'm not trying to convince you to go that way, I'm just saying that route is much more practical to me. I am not very fond of the 16Vs because they have such pathetic power and cost so much to make power out of NA. It is however by far your cheapest easiest option. A 2ZZ would be much more rad though. :twisted:
Whatever the case and whatever you choose to do, I do agree with the others that you will be spending so much money for such little gains there is no way I would say it would be worth the cost.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Wed May 15, 2013 2:51 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
Ryusei_Date wrote:
chohdog wrote:I've heard some dudes can get their 4-AC up to 150 hp with just a nice tune-up and the addition of those things I mentioned, I don't have time right now anyway for an engine swap or anything drastic, I just wanna get a little more "oomph" out of what I got now. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I need to make do with what I got for now. Besides engine swaps are awful pricey too, I couldn't justify it right now,

I don't know exact prices for the parts you are looking at but I'd have to imagine they come close to a grand. If you have the skills to do the swap yourself then you could swap in a 4A for close to that. If you have the skills to do carbs and cams I'd imagine you have most the skills needed for the swap. Now I don't know the specific needs of your chassis so that's just a general assumption.

Get a smallport from a 92ish Prizm GSI for $300. Even if you can't or don't want to mess with the wiring I think you can have a harness made for about $500. That leaves you 200 for odds and ends. Total cost may be a bit more but your gains would be much more as well. Plus you would have EFI, get better gas mileage and have a much better platform to build upon in the future.
A 4AC to 4AG swap should not take months. If you had the harness made it should take days. For someone experienced probably a day or two. For someone pretty green maybe a couple weekends.
Now I'm not trying to convince you to go that way, I'm just saying that route is much more practical to me. I am not very fond of the 16Vs because they have such pathetic power and cost so much to make power out of NA. It is however by far your cheapest easiest option. A 2ZZ would be much more rad though. :twisted:
Whatever the case and whatever you choose to do, I do agree with the others that you will be spending so much money for such little gains there is no way I would say it would be worth the cost.

Hmm, tbh I still don't know whether or not I should bother with the swap or just upgrade the 4-AC, I'm mainly exploring my options and seeing which one can get me the most results I want. 150 hp's all I want for now, I guess if I got the 4-AGE I'd have more power to tinker around with...and if it really is equally expensive to upgrading the 4-AC I might as well just buy the 4-AGE and sell the 4-AC for some nice parts XD If it only takes as long as you said, I guess I could do it over summer...I can rent a car in the meantime or something...hmm. Oh well, thanks for putting perspective in my head guys XD
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby BosoHachi » Thu May 16, 2013 9:37 pm

Flip the air filter box lid! :D

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Cavi Mike » Thu May 16, 2013 10:00 pm

I'd keep going with the twin-cam conversion if I were you. The only way to get any real performance out of the single-cam is with boost and if you don't have the patience or money for a twin-cam swap, you're definitely not gonna have it for a turbo.
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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Fri May 17, 2013 10:15 am

BosoHachi wrote:Flip the air filter box lid! :D

You sure that's not some urban myth? I took off the lid and started it and it didn't sound any different XD

But yeah I suppose I'll go for the twin-cam conversion if it really costs as much as simply upgrading the 4-AC, and with a 4-AGE, I guess I'll be able to get more fun out of it anyway! :D
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby ga_goosh » Fri May 17, 2013 10:49 am

since you have an sr5 i would suggest carbed 4ag to reduce the amount of wiring you will need. the 4ac really is a wast of time it was designed for economy not performance plus there isnt much of an aftermarket for those engines with good reason too. you also might want to consider a 3tc as well.
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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Fri May 17, 2013 11:40 am

ga_goosh wrote:since you have an sr5 i would suggest carbed 4ag to reduce the amount of wiring you will need. the 4ac really is a wast of time it was designed for economy not performance plus there isnt much of an aftermarket for those engines with good reason too. you also might want to consider a 3tc as well.

Would a 3tc be easier to wire than the 4-AGE? 3TC's appear to be popular swaps too, I guess it'll be a matter of which one I can find first for the better bargain :lol:
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri May 17, 2013 12:09 pm

The 3TC starts out with less power than the 4AC meaning you would need to start modding after the swap just to get it caught up. Seems like a silly step sideways to me.
You already have an A series motor. Why not just go for a more powerful A series motor that in stock form beats both of the above very hard?
I would spend the extra time to go EFI. I am ok with the carb on my 55 Studebaker but EFI is so much more superior. You will make more power, get better gas mileage and most importantly have better adaptability to environmental and tuning variables. Not only that but the time and money converting a 4AGE to and tuning carbs is probably going to be very close to the time and money for a harness and installing it.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby poorutron » Sun May 19, 2013 12:33 am

heres something to drop some bricks in your pants. talk to club4ag "mesh on my rolla" regarding his 4AC build, all I gotta say is 20V BOTTOM hasn't been dyno'd but like most people said when i saw his setup (at the formula D meet event in irvine) had same thing people listed, weber carb, exh mani, cams but the 20v bottom is what tripped me out. I'll grab a picture of his engine bay off my phone as well of pics of the ribs for his 20v.


fyi waste of money.....whose to say you didnt earn that money they did lol, waste of time? dafaq who do you think you are God? personal opinions goes as far as ideals, which everyone has theirs..


back on topic if i recall correctly he spent 700ish altogether i think? he hasnt had any problems with his setup and can take a 4ag /LOL/

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby MisterJerk » Sun May 19, 2013 6:54 am

When I first saw this thread, my first thought was 20v BT block/pistons/etc with the 4ac head and weber carb. If you go through all that.. might as well keep the whole 20v. or throw a 16v head of his choice on it, with 20v block.


or an even cheaper route, 16v head on the 4ac bottom, fueling of his choice, carbs,efi(and all the **** that goes with either). it wont be fast, but more power than he started with and you can save your paper to build a bottom end.

16v head with all the ****, is pretty cheap. this can be done on the cheap with the right networking and junkyard skills with a little mcguyver thrown in with some visegrips.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby poorutron » Sun May 19, 2013 12:54 pm

MisterJerk wrote:When I first saw this thread, my first thought was 20v BT block/pistons/etc with the 4ac head and weber carb. If you go through all that.. might as well keep the whole 20v. or throw a 16v head of his choice on it, with 20v block.


or an even cheaper route, 16v head on the 4ac bottom, fueling of his choice, carbs,efi(and all the **** that goes with either). it wont be fast, but more power than he started with and you can save your paper to build a bottom end.

16v head with all the ****, is pretty cheap. this can be done on the cheap with the right networking and junkyard skills with a little mcguyver thrown in with some visegrips.



see i thought about a 20v swap too as well, thing of it is CA is starting to crack down on swaps via "smog surveys" and "star smog only" places making it reaaaaally hard to do a nice swap but alas nothing can beeat a 4age in terms of versatility in CA (darn smog laws)

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 19, 2013 1:57 pm

poorutron wrote:fyi waste of money.....whose to say you didnt earn that money they did lol, waste of time? dafaq who do you think you are God? personal opinions goes as far as ideals, which everyone has theirs..


In the end this is true and in the end people can do whatever the F they want. For me though it all comes down to the $/gain ratio. I usually say 4/HP ratio because that is what is important to me but I respect that others have other priorities.
If you can spend $800 and gain 60 HP or spend $800 and gain 25 HP then to me the choice is clear. Even if you have to spend $1600 to gain 80 HP that still generally seems much more logical to me than spending $800 to gain $25.
Of course I started out in the DSM world where everything had been tried and documented so many times the most ideal way to a power goal was mapped out and documented. Either you took that path or you chose another path to be unique or to try to prove something. In the end that path cost more and gained less.
I like that the 4AGE world has many more paths to get to an objective and that there is so much more diversity in the community. I still always have that base logic that tries to find the most direct route getting you the most gains/reliability for the least money/hassle.
In the end if you want to dump $4000 into a 4AC that is your choice but don't get upset when someone comes along and smokes you with a stock 20V or lightly modded 16V.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby 8Ton » Sun May 19, 2013 3:48 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote: For me though it all comes down to the $/gain ratio. I usually say 4/HP ratio because that is what is important to me but I respect that others have other priorities.

Then why bother with the 4A at all? the only one that has decent power is the 20v or supercharged, and for that $ you could put in a chevy LS v8 in there and have double the power. Not how I would do it, but better $/hp.

RD-The 4ac, despite all the naysayers (most of whom have never owned a 4ac) is a good engine that has a nice flat torque curve. This is far more important in traffic than hi rev hp. That is why diesel trucks will leave you in the dust light to light. 3tc is a better engine, but they are getting hard to find in good shape and are a bit heavy. If you can get a good runner for cheap it might be worth it.


What I would do is do a full tune up, oil change and decarbonize the engine, If if runs well with no bottom end issues, have a 260 or so grind put on a spare cam, port a spare head yourself and have it milled and a valve job done. Swap it on at your convenience. you will pick up around 15-20hp and a boatload of torque. It should fulfill your need for speed while you build up the more important parts of the car (the driver and suspension!)
Down the road you could do as Mr.Jerk suggested and put a cheap G head on and convert to FI. Or Put a LS1 in and have REAL power!
Check out 4ac powered, and GOOD LUCK!!

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 19, 2013 4:44 pm

8Ton wrote:Then why bother with the 4A at all?

That's usually what I say unless you plan to boost it. In NA form the 4A is a weak motor by todays standards unless you dump buckets of money into it. It is however by far the cheapest easiest option the OP has to gain a decent bit of power and it gives him a much better platform to build upon in the future. From there if he wanted more, personally I would boost it. Sure he could boost the 4AC but I would be very excited to get away from carbs before dealing with boost.

8Ton wrote: the only one that has decent power is the 20v or supercharged, and for that $ you could put in a chevy LS v8 in there and have double the power. Not how I would do it, but better $/hp.



And double the weight as well. I suspect once you were done with your reliable properly executed LS swap you would have exceeded the cost of a number of alternative builds.
I think much more feasable and cost effective would be turbo 4AG, 3SGTE, and 1 or 2GR just to name a few.
This isn't about dropping the biggest motor with the most HP in the car. It's about maximizing the value of your dollar.
is a good engine that has a nice flat torque curve. This is far more important in traffic than hi rev hp. That is why diesel trucks will leave you in the dust light to light.


If they do leave you in the dust it's because they have more horsepower over a broader range or you didn't launch right.
Remember that acceleration is a measure of work done over time. HP is a measure of work done over time. Torque is a measure of force applied and tells you nothing about how much work you can do.
Don't worry. The majority of the automotive community uses this terminology wrong so people just get used to using it even though it's bad maths.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... torque.htm
http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engin ... d_work.htm
Power is power. In traffic or anywhere else high end HP is just as useful as low end power as long as you know how to use it. There are of course practical limitations. You don't want to need to spin your motor to 8k just to take off from a light.

boatload of torque.

Again torque in meaningless unless you assign it a range of RPM. Once you do this you can measure how much work it can do and you measure that in HP, KW etc.
Last edited by yoshimitsuspeed on Sun May 19, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Tora » Sun May 19, 2013 4:46 pm

Most of these suggestions are really complicated for someone who clearly doesn't have the expertise or the time to tackle such a huge project. Swapping the carb will be simpler, more fun, give noticeable results quickly, AND (this is the important part) keep his car on the road, unlike 80% of the AE86's out there, stuck in garages for years at a time.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby chemtrails » Mon May 20, 2013 3:56 pm

I'll just put this here.

AE86 Corolla Dyno Pull Only 76 HP and 79 Lb Ft Tq.
http://youtu.be/HOGfrmNYOSw
Image
Failure to follow these instructions can result in death, serious injury, or equipment damage.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby jinx » Mon May 20, 2013 5:55 pm

best bang for the buck 4AC probably a draw thru turbo.
You'll have to do your homework, but its not that complicated. Drawthru 2 valve motors can be beasts. Period
Look what a 'stock' 2TC (also 1.6L) does. HUGE improvement in performance.... would kill most 4AGs
http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=11672
Seen a few similarly moded 4AC detailed on oz/nz forums a few years back. Dunno if info still online

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Mon May 20, 2013 8:45 pm

Wow, so many suggestions! I haven't a clue where to start XD I guess in terms of just keeping my car a nice daily driver for now is all I need, so I guess I'll start with restoring the 4-AC to it's former glory and rebuild it, then I suppose a nice carb and then I can think about a 4-AGE later when I'm older. But yeah I suppose I thought too far ahead in terms of upgrading engine power when suspension is the main factor in making an AE86 awesome. Thanks so much guys, and all these suggestions really rock! :mrgreen:
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby pbme914 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:44 pm

The best thing I did to my 4-AC when i had it was just simply flip the air filter cover so that there is a gap all the way around the edge which enables the carb to pull in more air. The cover will tighten down on the air filter so all the air drawn is still through the filter. Unscrew the wing nut, take the cover off, flip it, and screw it back on. That simple. I felt like a little more HP gain at the top end. Don't know how much but every little bit helps.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Ryusei_Date » Thu May 23, 2013 6:11 pm

pbme914 wrote:The best thing I did to my 4-AC when i had it was just simply flip the air filter cover so that there is a gap all the way around the edge which enables the carb to pull in more air. The cover will tighten down on the air filter so all the air drawn is still through the filter. Unscrew the wing nut, take the cover off, flip it, and screw it back on. That simple. I felt like a little more HP gain at the top end. Don't know how much but every little bit helps.

I got a question on that, should I just flip it over exactly so that the arrows meet, or get it so that the cover still fully is over the air filter? Because if I flip it over exactly, the air filter itself is partially exposed and the cover is just over nothing. And this won't damage the car or anything right? :lol:
my car: 1986 Toyota AE86 coupe

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby allencr » Thu May 23, 2013 6:44 pm

Ryusei_Date wrote: And this won't damage the car or anything right?


Don't do what you don't know!!!!!

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Clutch_Kick_Lou » Sun May 26, 2013 1:18 am

Schneider 300° Cam, Schneider Double valve springs, Weber 38 outlaw, Headers (hard to find) and exhaust. You can easily pass a 4age and you can rev up to 8.5k like nothing. All for around $400-500. Just research, research, research.

16v head on a 4AC block is pointless, I'm not saying it's not possible the compression drops to I think 6:1? Despite the fact they have the same block as the 16v the pistons and crank are completely different. You can buy a 16v head, pistons, and crank and build and build a budget 16v if you have skills to do it but if you're looking for 150HP 20v is the way to go if not ball harder and go for a Beams.
☆ ☆ ☆ BUZZKILLER ☆ ☆ ☆

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby pbme914 » Wed May 29, 2013 10:32 am

Ryusei_Date wrote:I got a question on that, should I just flip it over exactly so that the arrows meet, or get it so that the cover still fully is over the air filter? Because if I flip it over exactly, the air filter itself is partially exposed and the cover is just over nothing. And this won't damage the car or anything right? :lol:



There is suppose to be a gap between the cover and the bowl/dish that the filter sits in. This allows for more air to be drawn in rather then closing it up and forcing the carb to just pull in air from the small snorkel. (This is like running but only breathing through a straw) This will not hurt the engine because again, the air that goes into the engine still has to enter through the filter. The cover should tighten down on the air filter only allowing air to pass by on the sides where the filter is. There should not be any gaps at the top where there is no filter.

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Re: The best 4-AC upgrades...

Postby Omni86 » Fri May 31, 2013 3:28 am

Considering a 4ac may take more than it's worth to generate considerable power.
That said a sohc can be well tuned and can compare to a dohc. Or atleast make your sr5 tuned and enjoyable.
Some honda tuners choose sohc heads for legitimate reasons. Less mechanical parts, popular for boosted

Consider a automatics diff. For what a 4ac is its a major benefiet. I'm surprised how well its able to crawl or climb open throttle up hill. It has way nicer gearing, just dont expect high end it drops off at about 100. Low range is SR5Awesome.
Specs are closer to a gts diff :)
A weber carb or near equally-a full vacuum delete to a stock carb will help.
Dual valve springs may be excessive. Unless you have enough power to need them.
A adjustable or fixed aftermarket cam is a reasonable upgrade.
Remove your a/c unit, not a 5hp gain but less resistance on motor and nice weight reduction.
Exhaust is a good idea. 3in if going boost.
Itb's conversion(independant throttle bodies)

A mild cylinder head porting can unlock response and motor will breathe more efficiently, unlock power.
A full port/polish on any head will make a significant difference.
A 3 degree valve angle job or higher will add power, 3 is popular but more angle is fine, discuss it with a machinist.
Find a local shop and harrass some crotchity ole machinist, you may find one thats willing to help you understand everything on your level and know whats going on with your motor. I've learned a lot by personal interaction. I can only comprehend so much from reading and judging info thats new to me.

I really want to try out a 4ac with itb's. Possibly box them and run a screw top super charger. o m g.
Crower springs(single) aftermarket cam and a 5 degree+ angle valve job.
I have two 4ac heads I'm going port and polish in the couple weeks. In the learning stage and will have a instructor for the extensive work. If you have experience with power tools a die grinder is all you need for the basic intake/exhaust porting.
Also a larger carb injector may be needed. For such a small motor port work is easily worth it if its bench flow tested.

Running a ultima battery actualy made a very noticable difference in response. Not bookoo hp, efficiency in small places.

The primary reason a 4age has its power is in the head, why do people run itb's on a 20v?
For breathing. Gasoline motors are designed to burn fuel not explode the molecules, we use a fraction of combustion potential. Efficient breathing and combusting can be overlooked. Smashing air into smaller bits and compacting it into a chamber mixed with fuel has to be balaced, a hewge bolt on turbo or sc isn't worth it to me unless the power displacement is where its desired. You can also run sequential turbos on your 4ac for a more constant boost. Yes you can sc/turbo a carb.

I've had........a lot of sr5's and when tuned up abit they have Plenty of potential and make a great introduction to driving, depending on intent. Sr5 for heavy drifting-no. Can you drift or grib/slide a sr5, yes to a extent. Rear end is inferior but thats a good first gts conversion, ford 8.8/9 toyota m46 rear ends imo if you cant find a gts end.
Really you should realize the power behind your wheel and your ability behind it. Drifting a sr5 can be dangerous, I've entirely on accident at 55+ completely kicked into a couple of serious drifts on wet or icy mtn roads and besides "4 wheel" drifting the open diff was about useless. Difference in sling shotting a 4ac open diff to actualy countering a 4age's wheel spin is huge. I'm not trying to make any major statements, you should really do your research. There's a local "built" sr5 coupe w lsd, it's fast and responsive, probably has more whp than a stock 4ge. Really comes down to how much time and money to go into it and the type of driving its for. Wet parking lot sr5 drift all dae, logging roads fo sho, mtn rds sketchy.
8-9 years of ae86's a sr5 tuned is enough to keep up in corners with a lot of s talkers. Good luck with the 86.

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