Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

sirdeuce
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:13 am

That second compression ring does create power robbing friction.....
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby jinx » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:27 pm

eliminating a piston ring, for less friction ... sounds extreme. World class competition ? :) wow

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:39 pm

That second ring, when combustion pressure is forcing it to the cylinder wall eats a decent amount of power. That friction causes more of a loss than the lost pressure from leakage. At least that was the train of thought for a single compression ring. For a racing engine that gets torn down regularly and doesn't need to worry about what goes out the tailpipe...... I say get pistons with two comp ring grooves.
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby Billy_Andrea » Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:41 am

I would definitely recommend using pistons with 2 compression rings. My 1900cc Hasselgren engine had 1 compression ring. On over run, it's difficult to prevent the engine from sucking in a little oil & then being a little smokey when getting back on throttle. It's really not a big deal but gets you some unwanted attention when driving in congested areas.
My oil level never really changed on the dip stick but having that smoke in the mirror wasn't ideal.

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:58 pm

1900cc? What build was it, 4A or 7A?
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:07 am

sirdeuce wrote:1900cc? What build was it, 4A or 7A?

As 83 x 83 only equals 1796cc, it would have to have begun as a 7A build to get to 1900cc.

I'm pretty sure this is it.... https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1016&p=3451&hilit=billy#p3451
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:54 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
sirdeuce wrote:1900cc? What build was it, 4A or 7A?

As 83 x 83 only equals 1796cc, it would have to have begun as a 7A build to get to 1900cc.

I'm pretty sure this is it.... https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1016&p=3451&hilit=billy#p3451


That's what I was shooting at. I just didn't want to bring up the 7A thing again. 1900cc is a stroked 7A. They're pumping a 1000hp out of those unwanted 7As.
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:56 pm

sirdeuce wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
sirdeuce wrote:1900cc? What build was it, 4A or 7A?

As 83 x 83 only equals 1796cc, it would have to have begun as a 7A build to get to 1900cc.

I'm pretty sure this is it.... https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1016&p=3451&hilit=billy#p3451


That's what I was shooting at. I just didn't want to bring up the 7A thing again. 1900cc is a stroked 7A. They're pumping a 1000hp out of those unwanted 7As.


Can't speak to 1000hp (boosted of course)...

Loynings built a custom full 2 liter(1996cc) "tall block" - Loynings speak for a 7A based build - They had a 15mm deck plate made (raised block deck, and then re-sleeved the block for the added height) to extend the 7A deck height so they could run a 94.5mm stroke crank, and kept rod to stroke from getting out of hand... That engine made 306hp, 196#/ft - that was with a conventional, albeit updated* Atlantic head.

* - 34mm intake valve, 29mm exhaust valve

They do have unconventional 4AG heads as well........ :ugeek:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:53 pm

Yes, the drag racers are pumping 1000+hp from those 7A based engines.
But 300 from an "A" series is some serious nuts. I'm happy with around half that with a putt putt torque torque curve.

With that sleeve/deck extension, were they able to get an 84mm bore?
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:54 pm

Never mind, that 1996cc was an 82mm bore.
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby jinx » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:37 pm

throw enogh money at anything, you'd most likely get it to do what you want
aftermarket stroker kit build alone is an expensive, 'low yield' route
Parts from exotica is next level. Atlantic head, 1 comp ring, crank, rod, block/deck/sleeve, etc...
Ironic, that the hardcore A-series build demands so much dedication.... to the point of replaceing ALL A-series parts :)

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby jinx » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:37 pm

double post

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:06 am

jinx wrote:throw enogh money at anything, you'd most likely get it to do what you want
aftermarket stroker kit build alone is an expensive, 'low yield' route
Parts from exotica is next level. Atlantic head, 1 comp ring, crank, rod, block/deck/sleeve, etc...
Ironic, that the hardcore A-series build demands so much dedication.... to the point of replaceing ALL A-series parts :)


Except the block and head. All comes down to engine output depends on wallet size.
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby yabaiani » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:54 am

Hi everyone!

Giving a quick update. So the BC stroker kit is still pending...ordered in April 2022 and targeted to deliver end of August 2022...so lets see. Have purchased some good engine bits along side this kit:

1) Kelford 193-C Cams
2) MRP Sump w/ extender
3) SuperTech Dual valve Springs
4) SuperTech Titanium Retainers
5) SuperTech Bronze valve guides
6) Ross Performance Harmonic Balancer
7) Mishimoto Dual Fan

More stuff is coming, but just wanted to keep this group updated. Also...my car is being fully repainted right now too! Full restoration of almost every single nut, bolt, mechanical, electric part in the entire car. I also found in Japan a brand new set of A/C lines that I will be installing. It'll basically be a brand new AE86 when I am done with it.

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby yabaiani » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:46 pm

I may have asked this question…but is this worth getting?

http://www.raceeng.com/p-47161-darton-d ... rekit.aspx

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:17 am

yabaiani wrote:I may have asked this question…but is this worth getting?

http://www.raceeng.com/p-47161-darton-d ... rekit.aspx


If they're ductile iron, yes, it's harder than the cast iron in the 4A block. If they're steel? Definately! I've always believed the bore could be increased to 84mm if someone could develope a siamesed set of sleeves from chrome steele. Keep in mind though, if the shop doesn't do an excellent job installing your sleeves it could turn out very bad.
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:44 am

sirdeuce wrote: Keep in mind though, if the shop doesn't do an excellent job installing your sleeves it could turn out very bad.



This............... have a friend who took it on the chin when it came to re- sleeving a 2C-TE


1) Kelford 193-C Cams
2) MRP Sump w/ extender
3) SuperTech Dual valve Springs
4) SuperTech Titanium Retainers
5) SuperTech Bronze valve guides
6) Ross Performance Harmonic Balancer
7) Mishimoto Dual Fan


Recommend you DON'T use the inner spring... you don't need 70+ pounds on the seat (and somewhere near 190# on the nose)

Also the 193-C cams may be a bit too "long" for a stroker build.......
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby yabaiani » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:18 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
sirdeuce wrote: Keep in mind though, if the shop doesn't do an excellent job installing your sleeves it could turn out very bad.



This............... have a friend who took it on the chin when it came to re- sleeving a 2C-TE


1) Kelford 193-C Cams
2) MRP Sump w/ extender
3) SuperTech Dual valve Springs
4) SuperTech Titanium Retainers
5) SuperTech Bronze valve guides
6) Ross Performance Harmonic Balancer
7) Mishimoto Dual Fan


Recommend you DON'T use the inner spring... you don't need 70+ pounds on the seat (and somewhere near 190# on the nose)

Also the 193-C cams may be a bit too "long" for a stroker build.......


Hey Dan - can you explain why you dont recommend the inner spring? What happens if it does get installed? Also...when you say too "long", what do you mean and what would you recommend?

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:19 am

Can't wait to read this one. Not too sure longer duration will be detrimental to this particular stroke though. I think the HKS kit was happy at 10k rpm.

I'd look for a bit more lift and pay attention to the lobe centers and timing in a longer stroke app.

Did you plan to use a dry-sump oil system?
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:16 pm

This information has been in my files for quite a few years, but should still be a pretty good
indication of lift and duration. I think that I can hear a sexy racecar lope calling :)

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:17 am

yabaiani wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
sirdeuce wrote: Keep in mind though, if the shop doesn't do an excellent job installing your sleeves it could turn out very bad.



This............... have a friend who took it on the chin when it came to re- sleeving a 2C-TE


1) Kelford 193-C Cams
2) MRP Sump w/ extender
3) SuperTech Dual valve Springs
4) SuperTech Titanium Retainers
5) SuperTech Bronze valve guides
6) Ross Performance Harmonic Balancer
7) Mishimoto Dual Fan


Recommend you DON'T use the inner spring... you don't need 70+ pounds on the seat (and somewhere near 190# on the nose)

Also the 193-C cams may be a bit too "long" for a stroker build.......


Hey Dan - can you explain why you dont recommend the inner spring? What happens if it does get installed? Also...when you say too "long", what do you mean and what would you recommend?


way too much spring pressure for 4A valve train mass. way too much drag, accelerated belt wear, possible less hp made. Loynings use custom made springs (about $1400 per set :o ) they have seat pressures around 48-50 on the seat. If you look at Supertech's spring info, you'll see the single spring kit works quite fine - especially for your mild (shim over) cam choice.

Personally... I'm not a fan of the Supertech retainers (albeit I used Toyota keepers), nor am I a fan of the Supertech spring seats (don't "hold" the spring like a stock seat does on stock, and Toda springs or a Macer seat on the Supertech springs - viewtopic.php?t=21614#p133843

Speaking to the cam being possibly too long... The most powerful 5A I know of was/is Tony's stroked Blacktop put together by Quicksilver RacEngines. He made 253hp @ 8350 when it was all done - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026&hilit=quicksilver&start=120#p37113

His engine was actually built twice - in both cases peak rpm achieved (reported) was 8500. Could it possibly have gone higher... 9k, or 10k like Tony stated, that is still open... unproven.

Piston speeds... a worsening rod to stroke ratio (1.47 now instead of 1.58) make rpm levels in the 9k and 10k area less realistic.



If I were building a stoker... the 193HV-A cams, or Cat cams 7105148, I'd use the Kelford Beehive spring kit, or if I had the cash I'd get a set of what Loynings run, I'd also run the 1SZ buckets. Ferrea big valves, and porting to match.

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:33 pm

253hp under 9000rpm is really good! Especially NA.

Cams I'm running are a grind from Kamakaze cams, got them through Matrix garage, 266*/238*@.050" 8.65mm lift at cam. Decent cam, timed now for smog and smoothest idle. Pulls good from 4000rpm all the way to fuel cut, stock ECU. change the timing and I get to up my fuel cut to 8700 rpm and it'll pull haed to about 8000 or so. Never dynoed, but it is SUBSTANTIALLY more than a stock 4AGE. Might be good to mention it's a 7AGE?
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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby yabaiani » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am

Great information, I appreciate it very much. Will keep this thread updated as things progress forward.

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:51 am

sirdeuce wrote:253hp under 9000rpm is really good! Especially NA.

Cams I'm running are a grind from Kamakaze cams, got them through Matrix garage, 266*/238*@.050" 8.65mm lift at cam. Decent cam, timed now for smog and smoothest idle. Pulls good from 4000rpm all the way to fuel cut, stock ECU. change the timing and I get to up my fuel cut to 8700 rpm and it'll pull haed to about 8000 or so. Never dynoed, but it is SUBSTANTIALLY more than a stock 4AGE. Might be good to mention it's a 7AGE?


you need a set of Cat cams 267/238 cams... nearly identical to yours, but with .85mm more lift - that is a LOT more lift in a 4AG
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Anyone build a 4AG 16v with the Brian Crower stroker kit?

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:51 am

Actually, I think I'd rather go a step lower than that. A little more lift with a little lass duration. Imma putt putter now.

Would like to get a set for my next 7AGE. Would actually like to be close to a 205-8 @.050"degree duration with @ 8.5mm lift. Wish I could get some grinds I used in my VW boxer engines.
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