E10 pump fuel

totta crolla
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 am
Location: Oxford U.K

E10 pump fuel

Postby totta crolla » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:25 pm

Here in the U.K we have had E5 fuel for a number of Years and l have used it in my AE86 without issue.
E5 is being phased out in favour of E10 with the appropriate warnings to older car users, l know the USA (probably some other Countries too) have had E10 for a long time and l wondered if anyone has had any problems using it in their stock Corollas?
The expectation is that the higher Ethanol concentration will decay any rubber components in the fuel system.

allencr
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:59 pm

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby allencr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:23 am

Around here there isn't a specific number, just a sticker on the pumps "May contain up to 10% Ethanol'.
I think most all decay stuff has been BS, but it doesn't age very well at all & really turns really nasty.
http://www.club4ag.com/technical_main.htm
Extinct //home.clear.net.nz/pages/phil.bradshaw/Planning.htm RIP
http://www.oocities.org/motorcity/7177/tech.html
http://www.billzilla.org/carindex.htm
Extinct //my-acoustic.com/Car/car_section.htm RIP

totta crolla
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 am
Location: Oxford U.K

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby totta crolla » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:43 am

I wondered about the BS factor and that is probably why l asked the question.
I can see how E85 might cause issues though.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2781
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby jondee86 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:49 pm

We had 98 octane here in NZ for a while... it was an E10 blend. Discontinued now and replaced
with straight 98 octane gasoline as the supply of ethanol dried up due to production being diverted
to the manufacture of hand sterilizing products !!!

The predominate issue with E10 is that ethanol is hygroscopic, and if allowed to sit in the tank for
an extended period of time you will collect water in the tank. This is especially pronounced in
vehicles parked up for the winter... worse still in a vehicle like an AE86 with a vented gas tank.
This can lead to a range of corrosion and running problems.

If the vehicle is a daily driver and the fuel is turning over regularly, then not a problem. I was looking
at using E10 in my car (that is rated as suitable for E10) but decided against it it is not a DD and a
tank of fuel can last me several months... more so in winter.

Second issue is the effects on hoses (easily remedied by upgrading) and on certain grades of alloy
that contain zinc. Die cast components on older engines are very often made from die cast zinc and
as such subject to attack by ethanol. For this reason E10 fuels are generally not recommended for
use with outboard motors, carburetors, garden equipment or 2-stroke engines.

There are a lot of myths about ethanol blends, and the higher the ethanol content the more potential
there is for collateral damage. Race cars that run pure ethanol will often drain the tank after an
event and then flush the fuel system with gasoline. Ethanol does not lubricate as well as gasoline so
in race applications fuel pumps and injectors must be certified as 100% ethanol compatible.

None of these things are a problem with E10 :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

totta crolla
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 am
Location: Oxford U.K

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby totta crolla » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:49 am

Thank you for the comprehensive answers.
I will continue to use normal pump fuel (E10 from September) if necessary l'll leave the car laid up with 98 RON as this will not contain Ethanol in the U.K. lt is already an expensive alternative to 95
I wonder how long is too long to leave E10 without using
the car?

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2781
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby jondee86 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:53 am

totta crolla wrote:I wonder how long is too long to leave E10 without using the car?

I have seen a figure of 90 days quoted as the recommended maximum. However, I have also
seen a recommendation that the tank be drained before the vehicle is put into storage. This
is primarily aimed at avoiding old degraded gasoline in the tank when it is time to get the car
out of storage. E10 falls into the same basket but with more chance of water contamination.

The enemy is condensation that forms inside the tank. If your car is stored in a cold damp
garage then 90 days might be too long. If on a winter morning you find that the metal parts
of the engine block and head are wet with condensation, you will also be getting condensation
inside the tank. If you have a warm dry garage attached to your house the problem will be
much less severe.

Filling the tank does have the effect of reducing the amount of air that moves in and out of
the tank with changing temperature, and will reduce the amount of condensation that can
occur. A near empty tank (... so I can fill up with fresh in the spring) is the worst thing that
you can do when putting a car into storage in a cold climate. I made this mistake when I
stored a car for five years and it had so much corrosion in the tank that it killed the pump
and I had to replace the tank (easier than trying to clean the rusted one).

With my present car I make a point of getting it out of the garage at least once a week if
I can, and driving for 30 minutes or more to make sure it is fully up to temperature. Don't
know if it helps but it makes me feel better :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Billy_Andrea
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Location: SF

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby Billy_Andrea » Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:50 am

totta crolla wrote:I wondered about the BS factor and that is probably why l asked the question.
I can see how E85 might cause issues though.


Any idea if the standard rubber fuel lines in the rear of the car are E85 safe ?
I'm going E85 & wondering if it's necessary to do a complete changeover....

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2781
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby jondee86 » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:06 pm

Billy_Andrea wrote:Any idea if the standard rubber fuel lines in the rear of the car are E85 safe ?

I'm guessing you are talking about an AE86 ? And you are using E85 because you will be boosting it ?
If so, and knowing the quality of your previous builds, I would recommend replacing every wetted
part from the gas tank cap to the injectors with new 100% ethanol compatible components.

For a boosted engine on E85 you will need to upsize the pump, lines, filter and injectors injectors
to handle 30% more fuel (just because E85) plus double again if you are running 15psi. Might as well
get ethanol compatible items while you are buying. And you don't want any old non-compatible
hoses, seals or metal pieces melting/corroding and clogging your new injectors !!!

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Billy_Andrea
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Location: SF

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby Billy_Andrea » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:53 am

Correct, referring to an AE86.
I'm doing a turbo conversion on my Atlantic engine. Lowered the compression from 12.5 to 10.5:1 & going with E85. Everything from the firewall forward is already 6an E85 compatible. The same is true of the pump. Just unsure if the rubber lines between the tank & hard lines are E85 safe. Seems unlikely but thought I'd ask in case anyone knew for sure. Not a big deal to change them either way.





jondee86 wrote:
Billy_Andrea wrote:Any idea if the standard rubber fuel lines in the rear of the car are E85 safe ?

I'm guessing you are talking about an AE86 ? And you are using E85 because you will be boosting it ?
If so, and knowing the quality of your previous builds, I would recommend replacing every wetted
part from the gas tank cap to the injectors with new 100% ethanol compatible components.

For a boosted engine on E85 you will need to upsize the pump, lines, filter and injectors injectors
to handle 30% more fuel (just because E85) plus double again if you are running 15psi. Might as well
get ethanol compatible items while you are buying. And you don't want any old non-compatible
hoses, seals or metal pieces melting/corroding and clogging your new injectors !!!

Cheers... jondee86

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2781
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby jondee86 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:57 pm

Difficult to get any hard information as everyone (including me) makes their own best guess
on the bad effects of E85. Ethanol is a good solvent and there is enough anecdotal evidence
of its effect on old factory rubber hoses that I would replace them with E85 approved hoses.
After thirty five years there can be surface buildup of gum, dirt, rust particles etc on the inside
of the tank, hoses and hard lines. Ethanol does a good job of loosening these up and sending
them into your filters.

The biggest enemy with ethanol fuels is moisture... either absorbed from the air or from
condensation inside the tank. Water in the fuel causes corrosion to almost all metals over time.
If you live in a warm dry climate, use your car regularly, and buy fresh fuel from a high turnover
suppler, then you are most unlikely to have any problems. But in a cold wet climate where cars
may be stored for long periods with fuel in the tank, sooner or later you will have problems
with water in the fuel and corrosion.

It's a roll of the dice... some people change nothing, just fill up with E85, get a tune and
never a problem. Others have their filters clog up and need cleaning every 100 miles. Depends
a lot on how old the car is and how clean the fuel system is to start with. Good luck :D

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Billy_Andrea
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Location: SF

Re: E10 pump fuel

Postby Billy_Andrea » Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:20 am

That's all I need to hear. New everything it is then.....