coilover forces

85levin
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coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:39 am

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Anyone know how and why the placement of the coilover force is important to handling? Have gone through a couple of books trying to find the answer. One of the pics is a 240sx with a Macpherson type suspension like the ae86 whiche have the force at the spindle. The other is of a mustang which has a double a arm suspension but the coilover is mounted on the top a arm. Third is of an F1 car which is well bellow the lower a arm

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jondee86
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Re: coilover forces

Postby jondee86 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:21 pm

Interesting question. I'd say there were three main factors involved...
Keeping unsprung weight down. The lower the mass (inertia) of the
wheel assembly, the easier it is to keep the tire in contact with the road.
The F1 cars move the shock and spring assembly inboard and connect to
the wheel assembly by a lightweight linkage. Some cars with independent
rear suspension move the brakes inboard for the same reason.
Packaging of the suspension. The MacPherson strut was a packaging
solution, designed to reduce the amount of underhood space occupied
by the suspension. It trades off camber control for simplicity.
Overall performance of the suspension. The double wishbone design
gives the designer much better control over dynamic camber change,
and the shock does not have to absorb wheel loading forces.

Where the shock and spring are located affects the inertia of the wheel
assembly. The greater the mass of metal that has to accelerate up and down
each time the tire hits a bump, the higher the inertia. Moving the spring
and shock further inboard reduces inertia. Moving the spring inboard also
has the effect of changing the moment arm, so stiffer springs and shocks
are required to obtain the same rate at the wheel.

Don't know if that helps, but I gave it a shot :)

Cheers... jondee86
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85levin
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Re: coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:41 am

thanks for the response, though, not exactly the answer i am looking for. perhaps i failed to get my point across.

my question is more of where, at what angle, and how the spring and shock absorber forces push down on the wheel. also how these affect handling. i imagine this has to do more this the types of roads and lateral accelerations each vehicle experiences. There for, the F1 car has a very shallow angle. Shock absorber/Spring rod connecting to the knuckle. Though, I would like to know more about this and also about the placement onto the knuckle height wise.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: coilover forces

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:59 pm

I'm not sure this helps or not.... as I understand it... stability has a lot to do with the angle the suspension acts on.... I'm not sure that acts as better handling.... 3 examples... sorry they are hand drawn...

Image

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Image

Back in 1975 when the VW Dasher was introduced, it was purposely driven over a spike strip on the front while the car was @ 60 mphg and the car didn't lose control BECAUSE VW had designed the Dasher suspension so the angle the suspension worked was outside the centerline of the tire...... in other words the intersection between the tire centerline, and the suspension... if the suspnesion is inside the tires centerline it is less stable then if the suspensions acts on, or outside of the tires centerline....

an example... E7 chassis cars have less strut inclination then the AE86... part of why many people prefer the AE86 suspension is because of this small difference.... the E7 is 12mm wider @ the strut top then the AE86... making the AE86 struts work at more of an angle then the E7
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jondee86
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Re: coilover forces

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:53 pm

It is necessary to separate the suspension mechanical links from the spring and
shock. The mechanical links determine the suspension geometry and attach the
wheel assembly to the car. The spring and shock support the weight of the car,
allow the wheel assembly to move as designed, and dampen oscillation.

The orientation and placement of the shock and spring is immaterial. So long
as the required forces can be transferred to the mechanical links, the suspension
will work. Consider the Britten motorcycle where the spring and shock are
located in front of the engine, and the forces are transmitted to the swingarm
by a rocker and tension link.

Image

Manufacturers put the spring and shock in the location that best suits their
packaging and manufacturing goals i.e. where it will fit and at the lowest cost.
The MacPherson strut is a somewhat special case, inasmuch as the strut forms
one of the mechanical links. However, if the strut was changed to a simple
mechanical slider, the spring and shock could both be located elsewhere. But
this would not have met the manufacturers goals.

Image

Custom built and performance vehicles are able to be more creative in where
they place their shocks. F1 cars put theirs onboard to reduce drag. Monster
trucks put theirs outboard for cooling and ease of replacement. Installing shocks
on an angle as shown above, means that stiffer shocks and springs are required.
Resolving the forces will show that large part of the spring force acts to try and
push the wheel assemble away from the body of the car.

Supercar makers will use the best performance layout that they can squeeze
into the car regardless of cost. Here is something from a Lambo...

Image

Hope this all helps :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:07 pm

Thanks guys. OST, do you know how to calculate or what determines the best angle of inclination for the strut? Also, why is it not a common practice to use an upper A arm as a cam for the suspension assembly in the front of the car? Like in the pic below. It would reduce unsprung weight and also have less moving parts, though, i imagine it will hurt performance in one way or another. Seems like the suspension characteristics would be very similar to the old mustang design in the first post, since the coilover is mounted to the upper a arm


Image

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Re: coilover forces

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:36 am

85levin wrote:Thanks guys. OST, do you know how to calculate or what determines the best angle of inclination for the strut?

Also, why is it not a common practice to use an upper A arm as a cam for the suspension assembly in the front of the car? Like in the pic below. It would reduce unsprung weight and also have less moving parts, though, i imagine it will hurt performance in one way or another. Seems like the suspension characteristics would be very similar to the old mustang design in the first post, since the coilover is mounted to the upper a arm


Image


my suspension knowledge is not as advanced as my engine knowledge... :shock: in fact it was Moto who wrote this bit after I wrote him - http://club4ag.com/tech-data/dampers-ch ... u-in-mind/


In the photo above... that kind of suspension might work in a mid engine, or rear engine car, but I believe in a front engine car you'd have serious fitment/packaging issues... Which might be solved by lowering the mounting point on the upper arm for the spring/damper combo. You'd need to do some serious re-calculations, but droping the mounting point by 6"-8" might make fitment easier
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Re: coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:04 pm

that's a nice guide on shocks and springs. as far as that suspension setup goes, it would be difficult to set it up on a vehicle with the engine up front. Any idea where I can find an answer to those questions? really puzzled by it and seems like information about this type of suspension geometry is very limited.

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Re: coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:55 pm

found this link.. first pic is exactly the suspension set up I was referring to, on the front of a car.
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... =5&t=11882

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Re: coilover forces

Postby burdickjp » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:53 am

Pick up a copy of Allan Staniforth's "Competition Car Suspension". It's not expensive, comprehensive, and has been the inaugural text of suspension gearheads for decades.

In a nutshell, the angle and length of the strut determines the instant center of the suspension geometry on that corner. This determines the position of the roll center, and therefore the length of the moment arm between the center of mass and roll center.

As previously mentioned, the angle of the strut also determines the motion ratio between the wheel and spring/damper.
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Re: coilover forces

Postby jondee86 » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:44 pm

Image
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: coilover forces

Postby burdickjp » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:56 pm

Was it something I said?
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Re: coilover forces

Postby allencr » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:22 am

Why is there air? :roll:

burdickjp wrote:Was it something I said?

NO, It's way too much for what the question merits!
****
***
***
It's just a design, thats all, you've gotta figure out what pushes what to do what you want it to do.
Also, Don't mistake buzzwords & phrases like steel belted radials & CNC & fully balanced & billet/forged/investment cast & pinion angle & dynamic compression ratio & coil-over as any thing more then a description, nothing special but one detail of many.
Shelby Cobra, not a coil-over.
Thank you Cobra Club.
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Re: coilover forces

Postby 85levin » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:15 pm

i have a copy of two books on suspension "how to make your car handle" by fred puhn and "chassis engineering" by herb adams. went back and looked through them hoping to get an answer to the questions with no luck. i will make sure and pick up a copy of "competition car suspension.

that is a very interesting suspension setup on that cobra. been researching a lot on mostly kit car forums like lutus 7 and caterham style cars, there is really a lot of different setups and designs out there. it seems all setups have there strengths and weaknesses, it all comes down to compromises.

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Re: coilover forces

Postby totta crolla » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:39 am

Personally I don't get the whole coilover thing, assuming it is a coilover using 2.25" springs there are probably as many disadvantages to using them as there are advantages.
I guess the main advantages are the ability to corner weight the car and adjust the ride height but only the best designs allow for ride height change without allowing the spring to be loose at full droop.
Disadvantages include the necessity to use a longer spring to get any decent bump compression this in turn causes problems with tyre clearance at the strut, wheel spacers then enter the equation and they can cause a whole host of handling problems on their own.
Coilovers then ? The answer to every AE86 suspension issue ? I think not, after all the original McPherson strut is just that, a coilover.

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Re: coilover forces

Postby jondee86 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:57 pm

Before the McPherson strut came along, the double A-arm was the
standard front suspension... and is still the preferred design for many
high end vehicles. It lends itself to kit car / hot rod / sports car
construction. and when used with a compact coilover shock, makes
a very tidy package. Here is an example...

Image
http://www.mcdonaldbrosracing.com.au/doublewish1.html

Sometimes the simple answer is the best answer :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: coilover forces

Postby burdickjp » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:07 pm

totta crolla wrote:Personally I don't get the whole coilover thing, assuming it is a coilover using 2.25" springs there are probably as many disadvantages to using them as there are advantages.
I guess the main advantages are the ability to corner weight the car and adjust the ride height but only the best designs allow for ride height change without allowing the spring to be loose at full droop.
Disadvantages include the necessity to use a longer spring to get any decent bump compression this in turn causes problems with tyre clearance at the strut, wheel spacers then enter the equation and they can cause a whole host of handling problems on their own.
Coilovers then ? The answer to every AE86 suspension issue ? I think not, after all the original McPherson strut is just that, a coilover.


I'd say you've got a good argument against coilover struts which don't have separate ride height and spring preload, but having that separate spring preload takes care of the spring length and wheel clearance problems.

Even without separate ride height coilover struts CAN be done without too much compromise but suspension design is, by nature, compromise engineering.
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Re: coilover forces

Postby allencr » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:20 pm

85levin wrote:i have a copy of two books on suspension "how to make your car handle" by fred puhn and "chassis engineering" by herb adams. went back and looked through them hoping to get an answer to the questions with no luck. i will make sure and pick up a copy of "competition car suspension.

that is a very interesting suspension setup on that cobra. been researching a lot on mostly kit car forums like lutus 7 and caterham style cars, there is really a lot of different setups and designs out there. it seems all setups have there strengths and weaknesses, it all comes down to compromises.


Don't bother with that book, not a chance, look for something a little more basic for the basics you need to grasp at the Library, like High School Auto Shop & Vo-Tech/Adult Education stuff.

Here's a coil-over, not over the shock but over the huge rod(15) the axle/spindle slides up& down on, with 2nd re-bound spring underneath the whole mess.

Thanks Team Net Morgan
Image

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Re: coilover forces

Postby totta crolla » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:56 am

Agree with above about the Staniforth book. I have both "competition car suspension" and Fred Puhn's "how to make your car handle" and the latter is a LOT more informative than the former.
To the OP, what are you trying to figure with the question ?