Planning my future suspension....

demby123
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Planning my future suspension....

Postby demby123 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:22 pm

I'm planning on refreshing my current suspension. Now that I'm in FSP I can go kind of wild, but I'm limited to my budget and daily driver concerns.

Requirements

1. Daily driver friendly- I'm not a fan of harsh rides and the road to my job is VERY bad (all the shops in the area use it for checking suspension noise and shock bounce) and I'd rather not go with the common 8/6 setup or anything too rough.
2. Stock ride height - Need this to pop some curbs/steep embankment like drives at work and other random places, I'm also doing rallycross now so I'd rather not go lower than stock.
3. Cheapish- I know parts are never cheap, but I simply cannot spend 2k on coilovers. It's WAY out of my price range. 200-300 is the limit for each component.

I'm thinking the best DDable setup with my budget would be

Tokiko "blue" HP shocks
Either a Godspeed 25mm front sway bar or whiteline adjustable 20mm
Cheapest welded strut tower bar on ebay that doesn't have horrible reviews
and T3 camber plates.

I'm still not sure If there are any stiffer springs on the market that don't lower the car

Speaking of which, what are the spring rates of the T3 bolt on coilover kit? and at what height? Does anyone run these? These slip over the original shock towers? TBH I'm not entirely sure how they work.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby burdickjp » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:31 am

Most all aftermarket coilovers use a standard spring size, such as 2", 2.5", or 60mm. This means you can go to companies like Eibach or Swift and find a wide range of lengths and rates in those sizes.

The problem for AE86s tends to be the rear springs. AJPS and Greddy (and probably a few of the cheaper Asian brands) use springs which are a different diameter top and bottom for the rear. This makes it difficult to find other springs. I have Greddys on my car and find them good except for the 6k rear rate. I'd like to change it.
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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby Deuce Cam » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:05 am

Your mod planning is pretty much spot on for your intended use and it's all you'd really need. Considering this, I would only get the camber plates if you feel the adjustment is needed since they increase nvh noticeably (imo they're not really necessary for a car at stock height). Kyb sells oem style strut top bushings for around $30/each if you decide to forego the camber plates.

If you want sway bars the whiteline adjustable units are the way to go. IMO the ebay strut bars are just as good as anything else. You might want to stay away from the small round cross bar design in general though because they flex more than a square or oval bar.

For the shocks either get kyb excel g/gr2, or the tokicos if you want something a tad sportier. The kyb's are about half the price though. As far as I know all the stock replacement aftermarket springs lower the car. Eibach and trd usa had some springs with a very mild drop and increase in rate, but I don't know the specifics or have experience with them. The espelir and megan springs will probably be too stiff and low for what you described.

For the most part T3 can build the coilovers however you want in terms of the strut case length, spring rate and the shocks that are used. They cut 40 mm out of the strut though - unless they're building a set specifically for you - which means a lower ride height. They weld a collar/perch to the outside of the strut case and the coilover sleeve (threaded part that allows height adjustment) slips over the case and sits on top of the perch. The sleeves don't fit tight to the case so they us a rubber o-ring between the sleeve and case to help keep it from moving up/down or spinning. It works just fine but its far from ideal imo. A steel threaded coilover sleeve that is welded to the case is superior to a slip on aluminum threaded sleeve.

Don't get coilovers. They're beyond your budget and don't fit your intended use. Plus there's generally lots of nvh associated with them from the springs, and it's a bit of a learning curve to get setup.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby burdickjp » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:16 pm

After reading through my reply and Deuce Cam's I think I should clarify some things. When I said "most aftermarket coilovers" I mean just any adjustable perch setup, including the retrofits from companies like T3, ground control, etc. They all use standard diameter springs, and any setup like that would take care of you up front, that's no problem. I apologize if I came across as advocating "coil overs". As Deuce Cam said, they would likely not be appropriate for your goals. While they could be made to work, it'd be very expensive.

The problem is the rear. Most springs available for the AE86 are rather stiff in the rear. I'm not sure who decided that 58 N/mm (6kg/mm, 336 lbf/inch) was a good idea for street AE86s, but mine is terrible in the back. I'm looking into AJPS for different adjustable perches and springs for the back. I'm also considering chopping the OEM perches off in favor of some which take an off-the-shelf spring.
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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby Deuce Cam » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:09 pm

^Same here. I consider coilovers anything with an adjustable perch (off the shelf or diy). Have you seen the pdm racing project car on their site? They did exactly what you're describing: http://www.pdm-racing.com/features/AE86_buildup.html.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby saiGone » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:26 pm

Make sure you take care of you bushings first. its like $125 from prothane for full poly bushing kit.

30 yr old bushings can keep stiff spring rates feeling loose
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demby123
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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby demby123 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:45 pm

All bushings replaced except front and rear control arm bushings. im getting front soon

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby gotzoom? » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:04 am

Here's my feedback on having set my car up for autox and also for track. The Godspeed bars are a great design since they are hollow, but unfortunately, they are too soft for serious competition. I really wish someone else made hollow bars, since they are so much lighter than solid bars. What Deuce said about Whiteline. You want the adjustable front bar so you can tune out rear wheelspin. If you only plan to drive the car on the road and do autox, don't buy a rear swaybar. You want to disconnect it when you autox. The easiest thing to do is remove one endlink, which disables it. I have no idea what you would want for Rallycross. You need as much negative camber as you can get, up front. You should be able to get to around 2.5 deg with camber plates. Technically, Prothane bushings are illegal in FSP because many of them have more metal in them (thicker gauge sleeves) than stock, but I highly doubt anyone will call you on that. Stick with stock rear 4-links. The rules allow you to have one pair of adjustable rear links, but not both. That means if you change the length of only one pair of links, you change the wheelbase, which is illegal. Roll center adjustments are also illegal, so you can't run "traction brackets" or front RCAs (or struts that have built-in RCA.) There are many companies that make 5.5" diameter springs in a variety of rates. You can buy something inexpensive and cut them to length (keeping in mind that doing so raises the springrate.) TRD springs have a 9 inch free length, so you'll want something longer to stay close to stock ride height. Hyperco would probably be a good choice of spring. SP Tec makes the nicest coilover system, imo. They have a steel sleeve that has built-in threads for the gland nut. This makes assembly super easy. All you do is cut the strut case directly below the weld for the spring perch, slide the SP Tec sleeve over, measure and weld. The shop that welded mine charged me $50 to do the welds, so it's not expensive to go that route. Tokiko blues are factory replacement shocks. They really aren't a performance shock. I'd spend a few more bucks to get something with more damping. I generally recommend staying away from pony car and f-body shocks, since they are dampened for a much heavier car and the cars they were designed for have a much higher motion ratio than the AE86. Having adjustable rear shocks are really important in getting quick times. You can put most anything up front and make the car work, but crappy rear shocks make the car want to slide constantly (way more than with good shocks.) You really need a good LSD to make the car turn and minimize wheelspin. I am running the Tomei T-Traxx, which works great for track and autox. It makes the car turn much better than the TRD 2-way. If you 're considering moving to manual steering, don't. You would need to change the knuckes to the manual versions and this gives you school bus like steering, which is amazingly bad for autox. You'd also need the correct subframe and steering column to be legal. I'd also factor an engine rebuild in to your plans. The EG Honda Civic has more power, is lighter and has a better suspension, so it's a tough competitor and you need all the power you can get.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby demby123 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:28 pm

Thanks for the info zoom. I'm not trying to be fully competitive or anything, just mostly for fun and some friendly competition with the locals.

One thing that concerns me is the whiteline bar, It says its a 20mm bar, which is 4mm smaller than my current GTS front bar (iirc). Do the adjustable positions have their own thickness equivalents? It'd be nice to know how stiff each setting is. Is the whiteline bar hollow as well? weight savings is always good.

As for the rear bar, when I used to read the autocross thread on the old forum everyone suggests running no bar at all in the rear, I haven't done that these last two events but I'm definatly going to do my first runs with no bar and see how I like it. I get REALLY bad inner wheelspin on corner exit which is extremely annoying when you're already fighting to keep the car from understeering due to the body roll and worn front LCA bushings.

Speaking of wheelspin, I simply cannot afford a GTS rear, but I do have an 85 celica GT rear that's a T (6.7in) axle with rear drums. I'm just researching on what it will need to fit in the car. Hopefully I can build this cheaper than a $500+ GTS rear. I may keep the drums and put a zenki third member in it, Then convert it to disc using dr.occa's method for the SR5 rears later on. Ive heard the celica T axle has a narrower track (not sure why...)as well, so I may need wheel spacers.

Are there any companies that make the 2/2.5in springs in various rates and heights that don't require a quote?

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby gotzoom? » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:58 am

The whiteline bar has four adjustment positions on each side. The positions closer to the end make it softer and the positions away from the end make it stiffer. It's also possible to use a different setting on each side to get something in the middle of a position (I do this on the rear.) I haven't seen rate graphs for each position, so I have no idea what each setting is. It's pretty easy to change the position, so I just set mine on the softer of the two middle settings and tuned from there. It is a solid bar. The Godspeed is the only hollow bar I've seen for the AE86 short of using a Speedway bar and fabbing your own mounts. I don't recall what settings I'm running, but they are definitely softer than full stiff. FWIW, I recently switched to street tires (Hankook RS3) from DOT-R (Nitto NT01) tires and I only needed to soften the rear bar by 1/2 position to restore the balance. I think you should be good with the Whiteline bar, regardless of what tires you run.

Disconnecting one endlink has the same effect as removing it, but it's a lot easier. I mostly run on track where you need a rear bar, but I disconnect an endlink when I autox. The rear swaybar reduces the amount of rear downtravel you have and this contributes to the wheelspin. I get wheelspin with a Tomei T-Traxx LSD if I don't disconnect the rear bar when I autox. You should notice a big difference once you disconnect yours. You can use the front bar to help keep the inside rear down too, but you might introduce more understeer. That's one of the reasons hacing an adjustable front bar is so nice.

Using the Celica rearend will make you FSP illegal. You can only swap parts from cars on the same line, so that means only zenki or kouki GTS or SR5 AE86 cars. There's a guy here in NorCal selling a complete GTS rearend with factory LSD. Not sure where you're located, but if you're close enough, I can make the connection for you.

QA1 sells inexpensive coil springs in 2.5" diameter. You should be able to order them from Summit Racing. I'd probably stick with something in the 400lb - 450lb range. That's plenty of rate for any suspension mod that would be legal in FSP. I've been running 500lb fronts, but I will be going back to 450lb this weekend, since I'm now running street tires.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby Glock30 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:11 am

I don't have any track experience, but wanted to note that the Tanabe sway bars are also hollow.
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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby demby123 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:33 pm

Do any companies make cheap adjustable spring seats for the rear? or just spring seats to correct rear ride height if i get some lowering springs for the rear ?

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby gotzoom? » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:22 am

Interesting, Glock. I didn't realize that Tanabe has hollow bars.

The cheapest way would probably be to do what the Datsun 510 guys have historically done. You basically cut a hole in the lower spring perch on the rearend and drop a coilover sleeve in there, then use a standard 2.5" spring in place of the stock spring. FWIW, I corner balanced my car with only front coilovers, so you don't *need* rear coilovers. A 10" Hyperco spring will put you pretty close to stock ride height. It will be maybe 3/4" lower than stock, from memory.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:34 pm

Op, your second post is a bit contradictory of your first post. You're going to have to make a compromise. I've had a properly setup 8/6k suspension on my daily for a few months and I'm starting to hate life. On top of that I live in Phoenix, AZ (very little rain and no real winter climate) so the roads are pretty good. Really bad/rough road surfaces are almost undrivable (lol), the chassis bounces out of control and isn't confidence inspiring; also, good luck with anything close to smooth clutch/brake/throttle inputs with a bad road surface. I'm currently in the process of sourcing parts to revert back to mild spring rates closer to stock.

Eibach sells all the 2" and 2.5" coilover springs could want. You can convert to coilovers in the front without a lower ride height. This is rarely done outside of the rally crowd so you're going to have a fun time getting it setup right, because in the end the spring rate is part of what dictates your ride height. Then you have cost for the conversion: front springs will cost $150, coilover sleeves and top hats around $150-200+, and fab work for the conversion - if you can't do it yourself - $150-200+, etc. Plus you might have to get more than one set of front springs until you get it right and are happy.

I measured the thickness of the whiteline adjustable front bar and it's 24mm. On the softest setting it feels stiffer than the stock gts 22mm bar - it felt close to the cusco 23mm bar on full soft. I've tried running no rear sway bar on the street and didn't like it personally. I could feel the rear axle moving around more when cornering aggressively. To put it differently it felt like it took the rear suspension longer to set up and do it's thing. All a matter of preference though.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby gotzoom? » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:54 am

Deuce Cam wrote:I've tried running no rear sway bar on the street and didn't like it personally. I could feel the rear axle moving around more when cornering aggressively. To put it differently it felt like it took the rear suspension longer to set up and do it's thing.


Same is true on track. It feels like the front and rear take a set at different times, which is not confidence inspiring. You really have no choice in autox, though. You just get too much wheelspin with the rear bar connected. This is why I like disconnecting one endlink. It's a 5 min operation to disable the swaybar and another 5 min operation to enable it again.

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Re: Planning my future suspension....

Postby demby123 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:42 pm

Alright Installed some poly front lower control arm bushings and i'm going to remove my rear bar for the autocross this sunday. I know it won't matter much since i'm still at stock suspension, but hopefully I can at least get rid of the wheelspin on corner exit. That ****'s annoying.


Also thanks on the tip about hyperco springs, a cool guy on the phone with hyperco found a spring that should work with the stock rear purches and give me about 4kg/mm.

I really miss the autocross thread from the old forum, seems like theres no place to talk about autocross or grip racing in general anymore.