Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

ZINCHOTRAN
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Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:49 pm

I submitted a question to a local exhaust shop in Auburn, WA. It is about fabricating a custom exhaust manifold and pipes for our AE86's. I'm sure I'll need to take it into them for an estimate. I enquired about a 60mm exhaust system, (2.34inches)

The good news is they've already got a custom header for MR2's. They also use gas welding instead of wire feed. Their work looks SuperB!

I'll let y'all know how it goes. It may be just what we all look for in a custom exhaust shop.

They take online orders and I'm sure they'll ship. I'll verify if they ship.
Last edited by ZINCHOTRAN on Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby SidekickChuck » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:15 am

Are they planning on using high grade stainless or 304?
If I had it my way, I would do it like I did with my previous Supra and have it built with high grade stainless (316 I think) from the cat back with pie cut bends (mandrel is fine too). It can be costly enough to get a custom exhaust made in itself, so why not use good quality stainless.
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ZINCHOTRAN
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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:36 pm

The header will be 304 for the flanges. The mains will be 409.

I'm still waiting to find out a good time and day to drop in for an estimate by the owner. It'd be nice if they could do a high rise header.

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:33 pm

Okay, so I did a search to find out that a high rise header is used for the engines built for say 175 plus horse power. That or the lower compression, turboed cars. I don't need a high rise header. Just a header that'll outlast my own life span. HAHAHAHAHA!

Does anyone recommend a straight flow muffler when you have a 60mm exhaust header and pipes?

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:56 pm

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:I submitted a question to a local exhaust shop in Auburn, WA. It is about fabricating a custom exhaust manifold and pipes for our AE86's. I'm sure I'll need to take it into them for an estimate. I enquired about a 60mm exhaust system, (2.34inches)

The good news is they've already got a custom header for MR2's. They also use gas welding instead of wire feed. Their work looks SuperB!


Gas welding typically refers to oxy acetylene welding. I am guessing this is not what you mean.

Wire feed can be shielded with gas GMAW or without FCAW. There are also times when it's better to do dual shield which uses both.

I would guess you are talking about TIG or GTAW (gas tungsten arc welding).

SidekickChuck wrote:Are they planning on using high grade stainless or 304?
If I had it my way, I would do it like I did with my previous Supra and have it built with high grade stainless (316 I think) from the cat back with pie cut bends (mandrel is fine too). It can be costly enough to get a custom exhaust made in itself, so why not use good quality stainless.


304 is very high grade stainless. It is used in surgical equipement, knives and many high quality parts where stainless properties are vital, however different alloys do different jobs better. With that said, high performance EGTs push very close to the max corrosion resistance of any Stainless Steel.
Here you can see that Yield strength is nearly identical between 304 and 321.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/yieldstrength.aspx
Burns claims 321 gains you a little extra resistance to fatigue and cracking but it's overall properties are going to be very close to 304 so you have to decide if the extra cost is worth any small gains you might see.



ZINCHOTRAN wrote:The header will be 304 for the flanges. The mains will be 409.

I'm still waiting to find out a good time and day to drop in for an estimate by the owner. It'd be nice if they could do a high rise header.


If you are going for looks you don't want 409. The 4 series stainless steels oxidize (rust) just like mild steel. The difference is that the oxidized layer doesn't break down like mild steel so it will look rusty but won't continue to rust and loose material like mild steel.
IMO you would be much better off going with mild steel and getting it Ceramic coated.
Mild steel has better ductility and a lower coefficient of thermal expansion. This really makes it better for headers in a number of ways. Ceramic coat it and it will look good, last for ever and act as a better thermal barrier than bare stainless.

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:57 am

The pacesetter header I bought from summit racing wasn't ceramic coated and it is now dead and gone.

I have a few reasons for going custom. It'll be stainless or mild steel depending on the quote I receive.

1. It'll look good. (I'm not worried about bling factor.)
2. The stainless should outlast my last breath on earth. LOL
3. It'll be good for some mild street gains because I don't need more than 170hp depending on how I choose to set up my car.
4. These guys are local and I can support the economy here. Even if they bought their material from overseas.
5. They can keep the car however long they need it and I can ride my Dahon Curve D3 or walk my fat ass home. LoL
6. I'd like to have an exhaust system I can unbolt so I can remove the engine etc. (currently the exhaust is welded from front to back. I should've paid more attention to the guys who worked on my car when I was in Wenatchee, WA.

If they can make a nice header for those of us that want to keep our engines N/A and it is not a high rise header, because not many of us, including me, will ever see our cars make more than 175HP, they can design it to work with or without the power steering rack, so it'll work for basically any of our AE86's.

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:30 am

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:The pacesetter header I bought from summit racing wasn't ceramic coated and it is now dead and gone.


What is your point? Pacesetter headers have a notorious reputation for having crappy paint that doesn't hold up to the temps and for rusting young.
Had it been ceramic coated it probably would have lasted a lot longer. Of course there is the rusting aspect and then there is the fatigue and cracking aspect and I'm not sure how that would do even if theirs didn't rust to hell.

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:1. It'll look good. (I'm not worried about bling factor.)

That instantly contradicts yourself. Who cares what it looks like if you aren't worried about bling factor?
That was my original point though. If you go with 409 it will just look like a rusty old header after a few months. It just won't rust through.

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:2. The stainless should outlast my last breath on earth. LOL

It's quite possible a mild steel ceramic coated header would last longer due to it's better ductility and lower CTE.

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:3. It'll be good for some mild street gains because I don't need more than 170hp depending on how I choose to set up my car.


Unless they are actually specialists in performance header design I wouldn't expect much if any gain, especially with a mild power build. The stock exhaust flows so well it's hard to beat and there is so much science and enough black magic behind a good header design that it takes a lot of R&D and testing to come up with something that is actually optimized.

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:If they can make a nice header for those of us that want to keep our engines N/A and it is not a high rise header, because not many of us, including me, will ever see our cars make more than 175HP, they can design it to work with or without the power steering rack, so it'll work for basically any of our AE86's.


It seems like you keep associating high rise with a given power level or level of build. The engine or the exhaust could care less if it's highrise or not. You could make a highrise header optimized for 3000 RPM on a 100 HP motor, 14000 RPM on a 300 HP NA motor or for a 600 HP boosted build.

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Re: Full Custom Stainless Steel Exhaust For ......

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:20 pm

Research is key, and for many, like you, with experience in and out of the vehicles, as wells as R&D under your belts, those of us, like me, contradict and restrain our attempts at evolving our own potential, not to mention our own vehicles potential. These forums allow for a divulgence, divergence and dissemination of pertinent information from owners, to owners.

That is what I love about Moto-P's website. We communicate and enrich our own experiences with our own cars. We develop a repertoire with our vehicles and feel with our bodies, senses and souls how and why what works for each of us aesthetically and realistically.

I thank you for your time and insight. I am only going for two quotes. One for ceramic coated and one stainless. I don't mind if the stainless will look rusty and will be less likely to fracture. Trust me, if I still had my OEM header I'd ask them to make a replica. I never should have thrown it away.

We move on .....

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:03 am

170hp 4AGE in an AE86 and you want an exhaust........

KBD header - find one...fitted with a 2.25" cat...
Image


and a Brave Exhaust
Image
Image

Thats what I'm running in my 170hp (145 whp) 4AGE in my AE71 (similar enough to an AE86)

here is a short ride - http://youtu.be/oC73j3m_Hf4


:mrgreen:
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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:36 pm

Clarification is needed.

I've owned the 1984/85 Sport Coupe GT-S since 2006. The idea was like what many have done before me. Take the GT-S parts and convert their hatchback SR5.

I gave it away to a charity due to my End of Active Service, from the US Marines, coming up in 2007.

So in between jobs and only replacing faulty or broken parts means I haven't restored my beloved hachiroku.

The reason for the estimates for the exhausts is to figure out how much I am willing to spend and what components will bring me around 175hp at the flywheel.

From Billzilla's website I've found out that the original exhaust is fine for up to 200hp.

Layman's terms: which quality components and total price. I don't want to turbo my car.

I'll do that to a newer car. But I like the NA feel of linear acceleration.

-OST

Do you have your LEEN J160 in their in that video?

What was the total cost? I did the conversion of the euro to usd and it was roughly $2,500, not including the transmission.

I might be better off with a W-55 or W-58. The guy I talked to said his bellhousing adapter is a total of $410 USD. Shipping included in price.

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:30 pm

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:Clarification is needed.

I've owned the 1984/85 Sport Coupe GT-S since 2006. The idea was like what many have done before me. Take the GT-S parts and convert their hatchback SR5.

I gave it away to a charity due to my End of Active Service, from the US Marines, coming up in 2007.

So in between jobs and only replacing faulty or broken parts means I haven't restored my beloved hachiroku.

The reason for the estimates for the exhausts is to figure out how much I am willing to spend and what components will bring me around 175hp at the flywheel.

From Billzilla's website I've found out that the original exhaust is fine for up to 200hp.

Layman's terms: which quality components and total price. I don't want to turbo my car.

I'll do that to a newer car. But I like the NA feel of linear acceleration.

-OST

Do you have your LEEN J160 in their in that video?

What was the total cost? I did the conversion of the euro to usd and it was roughly $2,500, not including the transmission.

I might be better off with a W-55 or W-58. The guy I talked to said his bellhousing adapter is a total of $410 USD. Shipping included in price.



first things first... Bill Z isn't always right :o the stock manifold can be used, along with a slightly larger diameter downpipe for power levels approaching 180 crank hp. They are not necessarily the best lengths for power production. As far as the OEM exhaust, the stock factory exhaust system will NOT support significantly higher power levels because it shrinks to 41mm as it goes over the axle.

As to what will bring you to 175 crank hp... a minimum of $3000, AND correct parts selection... and that's if you do the assembly and install, and the price is closer to $6000+ if you rely on professional work for the whole job.

Yes, the LEEN J160 is in my car in the video... As far purchasing the LEEN, you can get the whole thing ready to install (modified transmission included) for about $3400(including shipping to the USA). It isn't cheap I'll admit, but you bolt it in and you are done. Also, buying a whole unit offers peace of mind that you don't have to find a decent J160, dis-assemble it, have a machine shop correctly modify the tail housing, and get it re-assembled.

I'll admit it isn't for everyone, but it is once and done.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:30 pm

Accolades to you sir. I understand many variations mean endless possibilities as far as tuning is concerned. Bill Z. & anyone for that matter, will never be able tell someone exactly which mods and parts and how much money is required to reach a specific state of tune.

Your straight forward, no nonsense explanation will save many of us from ramming our frontal lobes into solid objects. :lol:

Saving for a LEEN J160 and finding out which parts and modifications I need to reach 175hp will be an invaluable experience. Driving my AE86 will be fun no matter what roads or corners I encounter. :D :shock:

Once again, thanks OldSkewlToy.

I did find someone who sells an oem 4age exhaust manifold. I'll buy that one because I am sure it'll fit. The guy said it is for an MR2 with a bigport engine 85-87. Brand new and oem is great at the price he quoted.

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:09 pm

Custom exhaust is being scrubbed.

I received quotes from Mark Martelius.

Their Street Tune, complete exhaust system from header to muffler is around $1,092.85 with the silencer. It is $1,020.68 without silencer.

They are using 2 inch ferritic stainless on pipes.

The headers can be either mild steel for 330 euros or custom stainless header for 660 euros.

85 euros for shipment via FedEx. $109.

Seems reasonable for a mild tuned vehicle. Mr. Martelius said Street Tune is good for 160-170 bhp.

Opinions???

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:56 am

ZINCHOTRAN wrote:Custom exhaust is being scrubbed.

I received quotes from Mark Martelius.

Their Street Tune, complete exhaust system from header to muffler is around $1,092.85 with the silencer. It is $1,020.68 without silencer.

They are using 2 inch ferritic stainless on pipes.

The headers can be either mild steel for 330 euros or custom stainless header for 660 euros.

85 euros for shipment via FedEx. $109.

Seems reasonable for a mild tuned vehicle. Mr. Martelius said Street Tune is good for 160-170 bhp.

Opinions???


Martelius is a popular brand in Europe.... Once you get it... post up photos and video
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:07 pm

I will post pics and a vid.

I hope I can get my car running smooth at idle before I install the exhaust system.

I need to do:

A compression test.
Leak down test.
Rebuild distributor.
Fab an oil catch can.
Install new or sonic cleaned injectors.
Drop transmission and get fifth gear back.
Replace clutch.
Lighter flywheel.
One piece driveshaft.
New rear and front springs. (They are completely rusted but not cracked.)
Rebuild LSD.

Remove all rust.

I'd love to disassemble and rotisserie the car. I do not have a garage to work on the car while it is taken apart. Bummer.

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby Jan Pedersen » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:02 am

I have the Martelius Street manifold and exhaust with CAT instead of muffler. I get 170 hp with a BT with mild cams. We didn't have time to fiddle with cam timing on the dyno but we will try this when I have a bigger plenum for the ITBs. It sounds really well I think, not too loud. This was higher on my list than power - otherwise you could get the R1 - but as the local tracks are very strict on noise this was the way to go...

We har three cars with different engines on the same dyno with oem exhaust. They put out 149-151 hp at the crank. One build 7 rib 16V, a mild 7AGE and my stock 20V. I think this is the limit for oem exhaust. The oem manifold can go higher though.

I also run an AZ6 but instead of just ordering a Leen kit - which is great but expensive - we went DIY and completed it for less than half the Money.

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:39 am

Jan Pedersen wrote:I have the Martelius Street manifold and exhaust with CAT instead of muffler. I get 170 hp with a BT with mild cams. We didn't have time to fiddle with cam timing on the dyno but we will try this when I have a bigger plenum for the ITBs. It sounds really well I think, not too loud. This was higher on my list than power - otherwise you could get the R1 - but as the local tracks are very strict on noise this was the way to go...

We har three cars with different engines on the same dyno with oem exhaust. They put out 149-151 hp at the crank. One build 7 rib 16V, a mild 7AGE and my stock 20V. I think this is the limit for oem exhaust. The oem manifold can go higher though.

I also run an AZ6 but instead of just ordering a Leen kit - which is great but expensive - we went DIY and completed it for less than half the Money.



One of the home (Japan) racing series required the stock exhaust manifold... N2 maybe??? anyway, the stock manifold works pretty well, get it Extrude honed... and it is better. The only problem is they do tend to crack, and you can get a better header.


Concerning the AZ6... half the cost.... BUT how much time was spent on your development, and construction? Can anyone just do what you did? Was it bolt in and go... with no trails and errors???? As I've said many times... The LEEN* converted J160 6 speed isn't cheap... BUT it is quality, and bolt in ready - http://www.gearboxconversion.com/index.html
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby Jan Pedersen » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:24 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Jan Pedersen wrote:I have the Martelius Street manifold and exhaust with CAT instead of muffler. I get 170 hp with a BT with mild cams. We didn't have time to fiddle with cam timing on the dyno but we will try this when I have a bigger plenum for the ITBs. It sounds really well I think, not too loud. This was higher on my list than power - otherwise you could get the R1 - but as the local tracks are very strict on noise this was the way to go...

We har three cars with different engines on the same dyno with oem exhaust. They put out 149-151 hp at the crank. One build 7 rib 16V, a mild 7AGE and my stock 20V. I think this is the limit for oem exhaust. The oem manifold can go higher though.

I also run an AZ6 but instead of just ordering a Leen kit - which is great but expensive - we went DIY and completed it for less than half the Money.



One of the home (Japan) racing series required the stock exhaust manifold... N2 maybe??? anyway, the stock manifold works pretty well, get it Extrude honed... and it is better. The only problem is they do tend to crack, and you can get a better header.


Concerning the AZ6... half the cost.... BUT how much time was spent on your development, and construction? Can anyone just do what you did? Was it bolt in and go... with no trails and errors???? As I've said many times... The LEEN* converted J160 6 speed isn't cheap... BUT it is quality, and bolt in ready - http://www.gearboxconversion.com/index.html

As I wrote the oem manifold will go higher ;)

Well I'm an electrical engineer so I'm not really a fish in water. But I don't let that stop me...
And as I wrote - the leen kit is great! And I surely don't doubt the quality! All I'm saying is that you don't NEED to spend $3k to do this. We spend a day planning where to cut the housings, a day cutting and welding, a day putting the box back together. Pretty straight forward actually. Only thing I had to redo was mowing the shifter which worked ok but the throw was too long and too loose. Second was way better ;)

All in all I spend $1k and a few days with a mate! Is it as neat as the leen kit? NO, but it does the job and I have $2k extra to spend at the Nurburgring or local trackdays...

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Re: Full Custom Exhaust For <170hp NA 3 rib 4AGE

Postby ZINCHOTRAN » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Very thorough and well organized information from first hand experienced do-it-yourselfers.

This is plenty of knowledge to help people, like me, who have not built their engine or renewed their suspension and transmission and drivetrain to allow the engine to breathe and transfer a minimal of loss of torque and power to the ground.

I look forward to a new exhaust system. I look forward to lightening the load of the engine, drivetrain and suspension so i can push my car to the limit and enjoy it to the fullest. I may never experience drifitng. But I do experience grip driving through canyons and love it.

You can have my Hachiroku after I die and then you can pry the keys from my rigor-mortis fingers.

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