Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

kouki1986
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby kouki1986 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:10 pm

Wow! Some great stuff here, very well documented. I'm currently working on my engine and I choose the ST 20v because it won't stay stock. ST has a slighly stonger rods than BT but the rest of internals are pretty much the same. Ohh ST also cheaper than buying BT. However, if you want to stay simple and you really like the 20v engine then I highly recommend you to get the BT over ST. This route only when you truly want to run 20v otherwise I would choose 16v as by far the most simple among 4age engines.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:20 pm

Image

The 2 pistons on the bottom are "commercially available" - in essence they are all out racing pistons requiring thousands of dollars in head work for them to operate in the environment they were designed for. Now, look at the top piston, that is a Toda piston. See how the crown(top of piston = crown) is not peaked. Ideally you want a piston with a flat crown.

Raised crown is ok, as long as it remains flat for the most part. Pardon the purple lines... this next view is the piston that was designed by one of my friends. It is similar to the Toda piston in that the crown is raised, but still no where near as peaked as the 2 "racing" pistons
Image


Finally... a few views of stock pistons...

Here are two OEM pistons: the 9.4 piston on the left, and the non US 10 to 1 piston on the right - see how the crown is slightly higher on the right.
Image

Here is the smallport piston (10.3 to 1) note how its crown is a bit higher then either in the view above.
Image

:mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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kouki1986
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby kouki1986 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:34 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Image

The 2 pistons on the bottom are "commercially available" - in essence they are all out racing pistons requiring thousands of dollars in head work for them to operate in the environment they were designed for. Now, look at the top piston, that is a Toda piston. See how the crown(top of piston = crown) is not peaked. Ideally you want a piston with a flat crown.

Raised crown is ok, as long as it remains flat for the most part. Pardon the purple lines... this next view is the piston that was designed by one of my friends. It is similar to the Toda piston in that the crown is raised, but still no where near as peaked as the 2 "racing" pistons
Image


Finally... a few views of stock pistons...

Here are two OEM pistons: the 9.4 piston on the left, and the non US 10 to 1 piston on the right - see how the crown is slightly higher on the right.
Image

Here is the smallport piston (10.3 to 1) note how its crown is a bit higher then either in the view above.
Image

:mrgreen:


Dan this is interesting stuff and knowledgeable indeed. As a noob I just can't resist to ask about that racing pistons. Are they reliable in the sense of driving them everyday?
How much bhp does it make?
Is it annoying like a jet rocket?
Does it require racing fuel only?
Is it worth it?

Thank you

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:58 pm

kouki1986 wrote:
Dan this is interesting stuff and knowledgeable indeed. As a noob I just can't resist to ask about that racing pistons. Are they reliable in the sense of driving them everyday?
How much bhp does it make?
Is it annoying like a jet rocket?
Does it require racing fuel only?
Is it worth it?

Thank you

they are not street car friendly... they will require expensive head work

in a $15,000 Atlantic engine... about 220-240 hp

there is an old adage... "use the right tool for the job"... those racing pistons might work great under a $5000 ported head with O/S valves, and HIGH lift cams... but for something you want for track and street... there are better choices
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Esenpai » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:31 pm

YoShImUrA wrote:I'm talking about immediacy to respond to inputs of the throttle, not to torque or hp figures. I'm talking about inertia.

A set of heavier internals will always act as an opposing force that will make the engine react less quickly than a lighter one. The comparison will be similar to when you reduce the weight of your flywheel with an aftermarket item. It doesn't add hp, but it gives you more "electrical" response to the throttle, if you will. It's all about being as precise and "connected" to the engine as possible, which to me, is what NA engines are all about.

It's all about personal taste, though, but Toyota clearly designed the 4AGE with throttle response in mind.


I can understand what you're saying but the 7afe internals aren't that much heavier. and you could always lighten them up a bit also.... dorikin himself ran a 20v 7age and I dont think he'd do something like that if you couldnt get a good throttle response....(but I'm sure it was also tuned to perfection which would make a huge difference) I cant fully speak the truth on a 7age as I've never driven one but on paper they are cool and they are easy to make and 7afe blocks are in all sorts of cars. so......
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:47 pm

Ok guys heard a rumor 2zz crank, 1zz rods, 4ag pistons in a 7afe block with a 4age head= 2000cc engine...searched but cant find anything anyone else heard something like this?
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby sickmade » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:26 pm

Mr. oldeskewltoy thanks a lot ones again. Now i understand what you meant when you said finding a proper forged piston and buy the looks of it my only option would be OEM Toyota pistons since the budget i had for pistons was around $600.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:49 pm

gaijin_rokurunner wrote:Ok guys heard a rumor 2zz crank, 1zz rods, 4ag pistons in a 7afe block with a 4age head= 2000cc engine...searched but cant find anything anyone else heard something like this?

9AGE, or so I believe.

strokers are becoming popular... 91.5mm stroke is max I've heard so far
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:26 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Image

The 2 pistons on the bottom are "commercially available" - in essence they are all out racing pistons requiring thousands of dollars in head work for them to operate in the environment they were designed for. Now, look at the top piston, that is a Toda piston. See how the crown(top of piston = crown) is not peaked. Ideally you want a piston with a flat crown.

Raised crown is ok, as long as it remains flat for the most part. Pardon the purple lines... this next view is the piston that was designed by one of my friends. It is similar to the Toda piston in that the crown is raised, but still no where near as peaked as the 2 "racing" pistons
Image


Finally... a few views of stock pistons...

Here are two OEM pistons: the 9.4 piston on the left, and the non US 10 to 1 piston on the right - see how the crown is slightly higher on the right.
Image

Here is the smallport piston (10.3 to 1) note how its crown is a bit higher then either in the view above.
Image

:mrgreen:


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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby YoShImUrA » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:03 pm

Esenpai wrote:
YoShImUrA wrote:I'm talking about immediacy to respond to inputs of the throttle, not to torque or hp figures. I'm talking about inertia.

A set of heavier internals will always act as an opposing force that will make the engine react less quickly than a lighter one. The comparison will be similar to when you reduce the weight of your flywheel with an aftermarket item. It doesn't add hp, but it gives you more "electrical" response to the throttle, if you will. It's all about being as precise and "connected" to the engine as possible, which to me, is what NA engines are all about.

It's all about personal taste, though, but Toyota clearly designed the 4AGE with throttle response in mind.


I can understand what you're saying but the 7afe internals aren't that much heavier. and you could always lighten them up a bit also.... dorikin himself ran a 20v 7age and I dont think he'd do something like that if you couldnt get a good throttle response....(but I'm sure it was also tuned to perfection which would make a huge difference) I cant fully speak the truth on a 7age as I've never driven one but on paper they are cool and they are easy to make and 7afe blocks are in all sorts of cars. so......


Well, it's not that they're much heavier or not, neither than the throttle response is a world away from each other, it's just slightly better in a 4AGE.

And of course, Tsuchi's 7AGE is not comparable as his engine alone costs like many corollas...

I have driven a 7age and it has great lower down, but I'd stick with my peaky engine, as when I'm """racing""", what I want is top end. :)


gaijin_rokurunner wrote:Ok guys heard a rumor 2zz crank, 1zz rods, 4ag pistons in a 7afe block with a 4age head= 2000cc engine...searched but cant find anything anyone else heard something like this?


Very interesting!

I want to know more!!



And about that also great info on pistons, Dan, is the non-US bluetop pistons available to raise the compression slightly in case I rebuild my engine?

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:47 pm

I sourced my set through CarrieC when she was a member.... they are not impossible to acquire.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby mikejag » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:10 am

I haven't been able to find low mileage Toyota engines but my friend just bought a 4AGZE from http://www.alltoyotaengines.com. They sell low mileage Used Toyota Engines from Japan.

Esenpai wrote:
YoShImUrA wrote:I'm talking about immediacy to respond to inputs of the throttle, not to torque or hp figures. I'm talking about inertia.

A set of heavier internals will always act as an opposing force that will make the engine react less quickly than a lighter one. The comparison will be similar to when you reduce the weight of your flywheel with an aftermarket item. It doesn't add hp, but it gives you more "electrical" response to the throttle, if you will. It's all about being as precise and "connected" to the engine as possible, which to me, is what NA engines are all about.

It's all about personal taste, though, but Toyota clearly designed the 4AGE with throttle response in mind.


I can understand what you're saying but the 7afe internals aren't that much heavier. and you could always lighten them up a bit also.... dorikin himself ran a 20v 7age and I dont think he'd do something like that if you couldnt get a good throttle response....(but I'm sure it was also tuned to perfection which would make a huge difference) I cant fully speak the truth on a 7age as I've never driven one but on paper they are cool and they are easy to make and 7afe blocks are in all sorts of cars. so......

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby overspool » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:49 pm

Over the next 1.5 years I'm building my corolla to get 45+ mpg and around 300whp... on a 4agte. We'll see how close I get to that.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby cmt1390 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:19 pm

gaijin_rokurunner wrote:Ok guys heard a rumor 2zz crank, 1zz rods, 4ag pistons in a 7afe block with a 4age head= 2000cc engine...searched but cant find anything anyone else heard something like this?


Here in PR a co-worker of mine is building one with those specs with 20v head, I'll try to post pictures of the engine block already assembled, the head is at the machine shop getting worked on :twisted: :twisted: .
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby cmt1390 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:32 pm

but i think the the rods are custom... -don't quote me on that gotta confirm- I believe 1zz rods are way to long for this application.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby redroku87 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't even imagine drifting an AE86 anymore.

They are not exactly common cars, and on top of that when things break in them it turns into an easter egg hunt and a half to find the parts.
Personally, if you really want to drift find yourself something newer with better support.
It's kind of one of those practicality factors that would do it in for me.

Not saying that an AE isn't a great car for it, and its your car after all, but I think its a bad idea.
Motorsports are more about being practical, and if there is one thing that I have learned from stupid stuff like steering rack hunts and the like its that AE86s are not exactly that anymore.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby overspool » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:29 pm

I have 2 86s. Parts are not difficult to source, just drift tax is more expensive on 86 parts than on something like a 240. The added wheelbase of a 240 makes it more stable/easier to drift. But learning in an 86 is one of the best things to do, or so they say.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 pm

there are other things you can do with a well built 4AG powered 86..... besides drift...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBx_pH2UFmM - just love the howl :shock:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:59 pm

^I wonder if that's a 16v or 20v?

In the related videos I came across this:

http://youtu.be/V0OuFegTbNw

:shock: ...definitely not good for dd'ing, but yeah...that sound.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Jimmee1990 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:37 am

On the 2000cc 7age build, I have had a hand in building a couple of these now so i'll share what we used. 7afe block bored 0.5mm over, with a 1zz crank offset ground. Rods and pistons were custom and really should be with this combination so we could get the longest rod and shortest piston to improve the rod/stroke ratio. Definitely not a cheap combination by any means however.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby redroku87 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:22 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:there are other things you can do with a well built 4AG powered 86..... besides drift...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBx_pH2UFmM - just love the howl :shock:



Don't get me wrong, parts are easier to find sure, but I am more or less absolutely bats**t scared of wrecking my baby. Especially considering the wheels to roof resto its going through and it having never been wrecked so its body is straighter then Chuck Norris.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby sickmade » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:56 am

Hey guys been looking at ACL bearings since I need some ASAP to finish my Bottom end build. I notice that they offer extra oil clearance of 0.001" on their race series rod bearings
http://www.maperformance.com/acl-race-s ... azJ_Mu9KSM
Let me know what you guys think. If this would help to rods under high rpm's ill be ordering this thanks guys.

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