Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

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Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:18 pm

Hello guys before anyone trolls me about googling it or "this has been brought up a million times", I done some research and read billzilla and other forums pertaining 4age engines.

Heres my situation:

I am looking for a motor I can use to drive and drift in. I am still using my stock 4age 16v and i plan on learning on it for a long time before swapping motors. I plan on upgrading the suspension and control before I think about swapping. I am looking for a motor that keeps the balance of the car while adding some more kick to it. I want an engine that I can use as a daily driver. I also want to stay in the toyota motor so no SR20 F20s for me. As far as my research goes, ZI think the best motor for me is the 4AGZE that comes from the AE101. Only problem is I can't find these motors and 2 I don't know how hard it will be to swap it. I'm new to Toyota motors.

I also want to know what you guys think the best motor is for you and why? Is it best for motox, driving, drifting, etc?

This is my first AE86 and Ive been wanting this car for a long time now and it's finally in my garage.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby gotzoom? » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:48 am

If you live in an area where you need to have smog inspection, you should research the smog regulations in your area before turning a wrench. In CA, there is exactly one CARB legal part available for the AE86/4AG and it is the Injen cold air intake. Everything else is illegal in California. If you're not in CA, you may have similar restrictions. As far as physically mounting the engine, a 4A engine is a 4A engine. Any variant will directly mount in the car. If the engine came from an MR2 or one of the front drive cars you need to deal with the cooling ports not lining up and the intake pointing at the firewall. There are a couple options there. You can either swap over the rwd parts or cut and weld things.

I like TVIS for road driving, since it gives you a bit more lowend torque as compared to the smallport engine, so I recently rebuilt a "bluetop" largeport engine. To make it a bit more interesting, I sourced a set of "redtop" smallport high compression pistons and traded my 40mm crank and old pistons for a 42mm crank and rods, so I essentially have a smallport high compression lower with a bluetop head. I ported the head to make it flow a bit better and I've been really happy with the results. It maintains the original character of the car, but is much more interesting now. I like momentum cars, so forced induction was not a consideration for me. Unless you're planning to do some serious high speed tandems, I don't see why a rebuilt stock motor won't be enough power to have fun and do tandems with. For sure it's plenty of power to have fun with at grip events. Your plan to work on the handling and the driver before engine mods is a sound approach. Do some research on what is involved in swapping in other power plants and you'll be better able to decide how much effort and money you are willing to expend.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:49 pm

gotzoom? wrote:Unless you're planning to do some serious high speed tandems, I don't see why a rebuilt stock motor won't be enough power to have fun and do tandems with. For sure it's plenty of power to have fun with at grip events. Your plan to work on the handling and the driver before engine mods is a sound approach.



This.

-Fresh 16v
-Light flywheel
-Good clutch
-Tomei Poncams
-4.7 final

And call it a day. I had no problems doing tandems with my 16v. Run that 4.7 final and some 185 tires. My friends are stupid fast with stock 16v engines at grip events too. It's 90% driver, 10% car.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Flipp » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:27 pm

what size poncams?
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:39 pm

Gotzoom thanks for the reply. It was very helpful. How would I be able to tell if I got a small port or big port. What do you think of Silvertop and blacktops?

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:27 am

Flipp wrote:what size poncams?


Tomei PONcams only come in one size. The PROcams come in several sizes, they are like the bigger race cams.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:29 am

E_Money wrote:Gotzoom thanks for the reply. It was very helpful. How would I be able to tell if I got a small port or big port. What do you think of Silvertop and blacktops?


20v's are fun. If you're going to go 20v, I would do a BT or bust. It's the better of the two. If you've never done one before, I would steer away from it or find someone that has done it before and theirs works like it should. Most people can't get them to run right, then they get mad and sell it for a 16v again or save for a S2000 swap.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby gotzoom? » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:42 am

The biggest problem with both 20V engines is the hassle and expense of converting it to rwd. I'm about 90% down that road on one of my cars, and if I had it to do over, I would have just done a built 16V engine. I wasn't ok with spending $2500 for quality water relocation and distributor relocation parts, and I decided that I am not smarter than Toyota, so I didn't want to do the hybrid 16V/20V cooling arrangement that many people do. I ended up making my own cooling relocation setup based on the factory 20V design and am doing sequential fuel and spark. I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with the results, but I'm not sure I'll be happier than if I just built a 16V engine with off-the-shelf parts. I'd recommend really doing some research on the 20V engines and what is really involved in installing one and making it work reliably before pulling the trigger on one. It seems simple enough, but there are a lot of things to consider. Parts are not that easy to get, since many are specific to that engine or a few engines that were not sold in the US. Knowledge is spotty, at best. There are many shops that claim they can do the swap, but you end up with hacky results that are unreliable. Really, the list goes on and on. If you're knowledgable on engine mechanical and electrical/electronics systems, it's not that hard, but if you're not, you're probably better off sticking closer to stock.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 am

A well built 16V with decent headwork can make VERY good power.......

To keep it all simple..... run factory ecu and wiring.....
7 rib block(with proper attention to deck height), 3 rib crank and rods. Have the rods modified to accept the larger 20mm pins - press fit. Have the crank and rods prepped (shot peened, or other hardening), have the entire rotating assembly balanced
10.3 to 1 pistons from factory high comp
properly ported cylinder head - (3 angle w/backcut, chambers deshrouded, machine surface to end with combustion chamber volume of 35cc, exhaust ports optimized, bowl/seat blending)
the "256" cam of your choice... I prefer Web Camshafts 294 grind (294 grind is how they call their "256" cam)

This engine will pass emissions in Cally as long as it has a fresh cat on it

Power figures(minimum)... 135hp, and 110#/ft @ the crankshaft... or 115hp, and 99#/ft @ the wheels
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:22 pm

Where can I find all these parts? Im unsure of what engine I have and how many ribs. Sorry Im new to the toyota world and absolutly clueless.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:30 am

E_Money wrote:Where can I find all these parts? Im unsure of what engine I have and how many ribs. Sorry Im new to the toyota world and absolutly clueless.


7 rib block... and why you prefer one.... top photos show 7 rib block stiffening over earlier 3 rib block(upside down photos)
Image


3 rib crankshaft... is a kilo lighter then a 7 rib crank. As long as you keep to the stock ECU the smaller, lighter crank has no problems. The 3 rib crank will begin to see unacceptable vibration beginning @ about 8500 rpm. Since the stock ECU limits rpm to 7500... you are good to go.
Image
both crankshafts in this view... the yellow lines show how, and which counter weights changed.

So besides saving a kilo on the crankshaft, you will also save well over 2 ounces per connecting rod* by using 3 rib rods. Far left is 3 rib rod... 2nd from left is most common 7 rib rod. 459 grams for 3 rib rods... 526 grams for 7 rib rods
Image
bottom left wrist pin bore is cropped... should read 18mm

Now here is the tricky part... the 3 rib rod... needs to have the small end, the 18mm end, "opened" to 20mm. This needs to be done if you want to use the stock (1990+) high compression pistons. The stock high compression pistons were only available with a 20mm wrist pin. Now... there is a way to avoid that... in some areas around the world, the 3 rib 4AGE came with a higher compression piston(with 18mm pins). IF you are buying new pistons, this might be an option to save on the cost to machine the rods to be "opened"

On the left is a stock USA piston it is 9.4 to 1. The piston on the right is the higher compression piston with the 18mm pin...
Image


This is the high compression piston that uses the 20mm pin. Note the center section is raised/taller/more pronounced, then the piston in the upper photo on the right
Image



The above, when assembled correctly, with care and due diligence will provide a substantial foundation for a tweaked 4AGE. A few things I strongly recommend...
OEM parts... especially head gasket*, oil and water pumps.... and a knowledgeable machine shop

* - A few may argue to use something else... metal for instance... but... if you are vary careful with your machining... you can machine the block to the clearance you would have with a metal gasket before machining, and then use the stock gasket for perfect long term sealing
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Jeonsah » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:26 pm

Theres some great information in here!

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:45 pm

wow that explains a lot. so 7 rib is a whole lot better when it comes to reliability.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:20 pm

Stick with the 4ag. Rebuild it or just rebuild it to be reliable. Then purchase oldskweltoys 6speed tranny. So on the freeways you can cruise on 6 gear without revving to 4 or 45rpm. Good suspension. And maybe a 4.7. I'm not quite sure how the drive with a 6speed and 4.7. Maybe you are gonna want that if you want shorter gearss if I recall correctly. Should be best for daily and drift.! IMO. :)

One day imma get that 6speed when I'm done with my suspension and drivetrain.

Just take it out now and I guarantee you will have fun with it.

But listen to the gentlemen above they truly have knowledge and secrets about the ae86.

*thumbsup*
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:38 pm

Zenki85 wrote:Stick with the 4ag. Rebuild it or just rebuild it to be reliable. Then purchase oldskweltoys 6speed tranny. So on the freeways you can cruise on 6 gear without revving to 4 or 45rpm. Good suspension. And maybe a 4.7. I'm not quite sure how the drive with a 6speed and 4.7. Maybe you are gonna want that if you want shorter gearss if I recall correctly. Should be best for daily and drift.! IMO. :)

One day imma get that 6speed when I'm done with my suspension and drivetrain.

Just take it out now and I guarantee you will have fun with it.

But listen to the gentlemen above they truly have knowledge and secrets about the ae86.

*thumbsup*


sounds like a good idea too. 6 speed 86 would be sick

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:45 pm

Yeah but you might have different taste but its a idea! Good luck with build! Should make build up log
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Zenki85 wrote:Yeah but you might have different taste but its a idea! Good luck with build! Should make build up log

thankss

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:28 am

Zenki85 wrote:Stick with the 4ag. Rebuild it or just rebuild it to be reliable. Then purchase oldskweltoys 6speed tranny. So on the freeways you can cruise on 6 gear without revving to 4 or 45rpm. *


You know MFactory makes a overdrive 5th gear for the T50 now right? I just did a group buy. 70mph at 3700rpm with a 4.7 final. A most six speed trans still have 4th gear for the direct 1:1, so all you are getting is two overdrive gears instead of one.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:33 am

HASport AE86 wrote:
Zenki85 wrote:Stick with the 4ag. Rebuild it or just rebuild it to be reliable. Then purchase oldskweltoys 6speed tranny. So on the freeways you can cruise on 6 gear without revving to 4 or 45rpm. *


You know MFactory makes a overdrive 5th gear for the T50 now right? I just did a group buy. 70mph at 3700rpm with a 4.7 final. A most six speed trans still have 4th gear for the direct 1:1, so all you are getting is two overdrive gears instead of one.


I just searched it up only found the thread for the group buy from old club.
But wow 70mph at 3700 with 4.7? Oh mannnn. How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:35 am

Will the 6 speed tranny fit on a stock 4age

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby gotzoom? » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:02 am

The car will be faster with a 5-speed. More shifts = less time on the gas which turns into slower lap times. IMO, the T50 stock gearing is perfectly matched to the power band of a 4AG that is relatively close to stock. If you wind it up to over 7k rpm and shift, you're perfectly in the power band for the next gear.

Assuming you're talking about driving around at lower revs on the freeway, a 6-speed wouldn't typically help you, since manufacturers only make one overdrive gear in their transmissions. If there was a transmission with the first 5 gears exactly the same as the T50 and they simply added an extra over-overdrive gear, it would make sense, though. 5th gear is already overdrive with the 4.3 rear gearing. Adding another shift point lower in the range doesn't seem to me to make any sense for the 4AG engine.

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby E_Money » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:50 am

gotzoom? wrote:The car will be faster with a 5-speed. More shifts = less time on the gas which turns into slower lap times. IMO, the T50 stock gearing is perfectly matched to the power band of a 4AG that is relatively close to stock. If you wind it up to over 7k rpm and shift, you're perfectly in the power band for the next gear.

Assuming you're talking about driving around at lower revs on the freeway, a 6-speed wouldn't typically help you, since manufacturers only make one overdrive gear in their transmissions. If there was a transmission with the first 5 gears exactly the same as the T50 and they simply added an extra over-overdrive gear, it would make sense, though. 5th gear is already overdrive with the 4.3 rear gearing. Adding another shift point lower in the range doesn't seem to me to make any sense for the 4AG engine.


you got me lost :?

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:06 am

Zenki85 wrote:I just searched it up only found the thread for the group buy from old club.
But wow 70mph at 3700 with 4.7? Oh mannnn. How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking



I was selling them for $350.00 w/ free shipping to 48-states USA. Another member had them listed for like $430 CAN. I should be doing another group buy soon, just need to get back from Patrick at MFactory. Also looking at having him build some new parts for the AE86 community this year as well. I took a Youtube video of the gear run. Search like "MFactory 5th gear dry run" and it should come up. It's the t!ts.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:22 am

E_Money wrote:you got me lost :?


He's saying that a 5spd trans means less shifting on the track, which will mean faster lap times.

Transmissions and Rear ends can easily be compared to a person riding a bicycle. The rear end or final drive would be like the big pedal sprocket, and the transmission the gears on the back wheel. Both a 5spd bike and a 6spd bike would have 4th gear so that you are pedaling the bicycle one rotation of your feet for every one rotation of the back wheel (the 1:1 ratio). Now if you shifted into 5th on your 5spd bike it would be your top speed cruising gear. You pedal slower than in 4th (overdrive) and are cruising pretty fast. With a 6spd bike, you now have two of those top speed cruising gears instead of only one. So now you have a higher top speed, but you still only have 3 lower gears, your 4th gear, and cruising gear(s). The difference between your 5spd bike and your 6spd bike now would be that the 6spd just has the extra cruising gear. Same goes for car transmissions.

On the other end of the bike you have your big pedal gear, this is your final drive in the corolla in the rear end. Same bicycles as before, you are in first gear, if you have a big pedal gear you will have a lot of torque and can do wheelies on your bike but the trade off is you can't go that fast anymore because you can't pedal as fast. If you make the gear smaller, well now you have a hard time getting started but you can go fast as snot at top speed. This is why going from the stock 4.3 final to a 4.7 final (changing to a bigger pedal gear) makes the corolla peppy but kills the freeway speed.

One way to cure this would be to have the 6spd bike and now you make up for the lack of freeway speed with an extra cruising gear OR you can change out the 5th gear on your 5spd bike so you can go faster on the freeway.

THIS is the difference between a 6spd conversion for the 4AG or using the MFactory 5th gear.


More sports cars have 6spd trans because they have power to push the car, so the manufacturer can make the bike (car) have a high top speed and not worry about that first gear struggle since it has the strength to pedal on through.

The transmission I feel is the most overlooked part of the car. A transmission is a power multiplier. A 4AG that makes 100lb tq with a first gear ratio of 4:1 would mean it's like making 400lbs tq in first gear. It's this awesome transmission gearing that can make a 400hp semi truck haul 18,000lbs, it's all in the gearing. That's why they have 10+ gears. With the correct trans/rear end gearing you can make any car rip hard with a stock motor while other dorks are dropping thousands over hp numbers.
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:42 am

hmmmmmmmmm... let me see if I can, "clear the wheat from the chaff"

1) The 7 rib block is not more reliable... it is just stiffer, the webbing to support the internals is more stout

2) the 6 speed in question is from the Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS200 models... (currently a version of it is in the FR-S :o )

3) the gear ratios... are NOT 2 overdrive gears... only one
1st - 3.874 2nd - 2.175 3rd - 1.484 4th - 1.223 5th - 1.000 6th - 0.869

This means there are 5 speeds before overdrive...

The T50 faults are WELL documented... as far back as its introduction.... (Feb 1985 Road and Track read center column to top of third column
Image

The T50 SUCKS.... even with a better overdrive gear.... only one of the T50s 3 problems is fixed.... the other 2..... bad gear spacing... and transmission weakness remains.....

There are more developments with the 6 speed.... for one, the Nissan version is now adaptable... and interestingly... the S15 6th gear (.767) can be fitted to the J160 box to provide an ultra highway gear such as the MFactory does for the T50 :shock: This means you can fix all the short comings with the T50... 1) ultra overdrive, 2) weakness, 3) better gear spacing by using a J160.


BUT since the title of this thread isn't transmissions... but "Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power." How about we keep this thread to that...

I have a thread in the Shops Section that I explain a bit more about the 6 speed - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1064
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:51 am

Concerning best engines.... the one I recommend on page 2 is ONLY for use with a stock ECU. The machine work on the small end of the rod to accommodate the 20mm wrist pin weakens the rod some. This weakened state limits the rpm of the engine to the factory redline.....

How do I know this is safe... and within "spec" so to speak???? I have a close friend who had this set up for about 25k miles with no failures... he was @ 118whp on stock ECU and stock camshafts.... (compression was over 11 to 1, and the ign timing was retarded some to minimize ping)
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 pm

However having a 4.7 r&p would compensate the 6 gears? Or is it mainly no point.
I'm not saying 5th gear is bad. Shoot I dd my ae86. It would just be nice to have. And concerning track time. Like I said I haven't much info in how the drive be. But I pretty sure it would be fun. Having a built 16v with good drivetrain and suspension. And if you want more of a bang the 20v should be good. Now for power f22c but of course the purist so the 3sge BEAMS would be a a other dream come true. :)

But that's my 2 cents
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby HASport AE86 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:15 pm

Zenki85 wrote:However having a 4.7 r&p would compensate the 6 gears? Or is it mainly no point.
I'm not saying 5th gear is bad. Shoot I dd my ae86. It would just be nice to have. And concerning track time. Like I said I haven't much info in how the drive be. But I pretty sure it would be fun. Having a built 16v with good drivetrain and suspension. And if you want more of a bang the 20v should be good. Now for power f22c but of course the purist so the 3sge BEAMS would be a a other dream come true. :)

But that's my 2 cents


You can do A LOT with just a mild setup. I think the trans is part of this equation, with out it the engine is useless, especially if you are going to daily the car. You have to think about your budget as well. I like the LEEN 6spd but not too many people have the cash for the $2400 kit plus finding a used trans with unknown condition and making a driveshaft. My mistake on the J160 gearing but regardless.

If you are doing a bunch of freeway driving, it's hard to justify.

Stock T50 5th gear: 0.861
Stock J160 6th gear: 0.869
MFactory 5th gear: 0.733

In stock form, the J160 has a 6th gear that is worse than the T50's 5th :( Good if you have a 4.3 final, sucks for you if you have a 4.7 final.
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Zenki85
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Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 pm

Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Zenki85 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:28 pm

HASport AE86 wrote:
Zenki85 wrote:However having a 4.7 r&p would compensate the 6 gears? Or is it mainly no point.
I'm not saying 5th gear is bad. Shoot I dd my ae86. It would just be nice to have. And concerning track time. Like I said I haven't much info in how the drive be. But I pretty sure it would be fun. Having a built 16v with good drivetrain and suspension. And if you want more of a bang the 20v should be good. Now for power f22c but of course the purist so the 3sge BEAMS would be a a other dream come true. :)

But that's my 2 cents


You can do A LOT with just a mild setup. I think the trans is part of this equation, with out it the engine is useless, especially if you are going to daily the car. You have to think about your budget as well. I like the LEEN 6spd but not too many people have the cash for the $2400 kit plus finding a used trans with unknown condition and making a driveshaft. My mistake on the J160 gearing but regardless.

If you are doing a bunch of freeway driving, it's hard to justify.

Stock T50 5th gear: 0.861
Stock J160 6th gear: 0.869
MFactory 5th gear: 0.733

In stock form, the J160 has a 6th gear that is worse than the T50's 5th :( Good if you have a 4.3 final, sucks for you if you have a 4.7 final.


Yeah that one of the main factors too. But I can't wait on that group buy. Seems like a very reasonable buy. Good combo with a 4.7 from what you said.
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Deuce Cam
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:41 pm
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Re: Best engine for daily driving and drifting with power.

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:17 pm

^I've have a Mfactory 5th gear from the group buy that hasn't been installed. I'm willing to sell. PM me if you're interested.

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