Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[aceforever]

Haha thanks guys! I'm also going to be refinishing the paint on the car pretty soon.

[jondee86]

I shall have to see if I can hook up the simulated narrow band output from the WBO2
to give a signal to the factory ECU. See if it changes things. From memory, when I had
ITB's on the engine it did warm idle close to stoich, and start from cold with an AFR of
around 12.8-13.0.

Did that ^^^^ and went for a drive this afternoon. Cold start AFR still showed mid-11's but
the hot idle was +/-14.5 so close to stoich. Driving under all conditions except WOT the
AFR stayed in the 14's all day. So yes, running closed loop definitely helps.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

That's great to hear. It's always wonderful when O2 closed loop works well

Visited a race shop that one of my friend works at. It's pretty fun to look at cars of all different types.



Caterham engines look a lot like the 4AGE!



Suspension work being done on American muscles like GTO and Mustang



Race spec Alfa running the same Haltech E6X as my car!



Another one:


Center brake discs in the rear?


My friend's 510 Wagon

[jondee86]

My friend's 510 Wagon

Twin SU's and pancake filters... old school to the max

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Twin SU's and pancake filters... old school to the max

Oh yeah my friend was telling me he rebuilt those. It's pretty interesting, there's a butterfly valve AND a slider valve in there!

[jondee86]

Yeah... interesting carb much favoured on cars built in Britain in the 1950's and 60's.
Jaguar, Rover and even Rolls Royce used them at one time. Constant velocity design
invented in England with a needle jet, much like motorcycle carbs. The Datsun carbs
will be the version manufactured by Hitachi.



Bit of a history lesson there

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Where is the slider valve? beneath 7? seems like fuel comes up from "4" and perhaps the slider controls the fuel flow.

[aceforever]

I'm getting a bit bored waiting for the refinish. I'm thinking about converting to COP for fun.

Seems like the JDM plug probably ties the ground together, and then the other two pins are one for Ne (24 tooth), one is for the 4 tooth gear.

I suppose I should just connect up the JDM dizzy to a o-scope and see what's going on. But that would mean some downtime with the car as I need to re-adjust the dizzy when putting the old one back on.

As for grinding the 3 extra tooth off, I suppose I can copy what the USDM dizzy is doing. Any tips on what to use to grind off the teeth?
---
I saw some people use 1ZZ COPs and some folks use Honda COPs, any advice on that?
---
Seems like my ECU could only run sequential injectors and batched/wasted sequential ignition, or batched injectors and sequential ignition. It does not have capability of running both. I'm leaning towards having sequential ignition since I wouldn't be loading more than the usual amount of load on the COPs.

EDIT: Interesting write up: http://www.sq-engineering.com/tech-arti ... info-guide
Seems like 1NZ is much lower profile. 1ZZ would work though.

[jondee86]

Where is the slider valve? beneath 7? seems like fuel comes up from "4" and perhaps
the slider controls the fuel flow.

The piston moves up and down according to the airflow commanded by the throttle butterfly.
When it is all the way down (engine OFF) the bottom of the piston sits on top of the bridge. When
the engine is running, the piston rises up and the gap between the piston and the bridge becomes
a venturi. As in a conventional downdraft carb, the lower pressure in the venturi draws fuel out
of the jet.

In this case, the tapered needle is attached to the piston so that as the piston rises the annulus
between the needle and the jet increases in area, allowing more fuel to be drawn out (NB: Anyone
making snide remarks about their annulus will have to sit in the corner facing the wall for ten
minutes). The taper of the needle is critical to maintaining the correct AFR, and I believe that
there are three standard tapers... normal, richer and leaner.

The rise and fall of the piston according to airflow maintains constant air velocity in the venturi,
which means constant pressure, eliminating one variable when designing the needle and jet. The
The oil damper is a small piston that sits inside the oil filled centre section on top of the piston.
This acts as a miniature "shock absorber" to dampen sudden movement of the main piston when
the throttle is snapped open or closed. Simple but remarkably effective back in the day

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Haha I don't know much so I can't comment intelligently. But I did learn a bunch from that. Carbs are quite interesting and I'd like to learn someday
I saw a video of SU / motorbike carbs in action and noticed the dampening function done via the oil fill center that you're mentioning.

Tire mounting:









All in a day's "work"

[jondee86]

Welll.... looks like you have no choice now. New rims and new tires all round...
you are gonna have to get the car refinished now

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Hahaha, thanks for the encouragement

I found the gearbox to be a bit knotchy now. I swapped from Redline GL5 to Motul GL4/GL5 transmission fluid. It seems much better now. Maybe it's the fact that I switched to GL4 fluid? I read about the GL5 being better on an 86 website, but some folks say it wears out the synchromesh.

I also checked the diff oil, seems like a bit dark with a red tint. I have not replaced this fluid since I got the car. Should I replace it at this time? Some folks are saying to replace every 2 years.

---

Now that it's summer, the AE86s are coming back out of people's garages. Went to an impromptu meet today.


My ride height is funny. I should work on that next probably.

[oldeskewltoy]

hahahahha.... Can add

I'm not sure....... but I believe that Caterham is running a Ford... likely a Zetec....

As far as the GTO, that looks to be a 68, I had a 68(30+ years ago) mine was Ram Air III powered

As to the Mustang... I've owned a few of those too... half were Shelby's (I've owned 4 Mustangs 66GT-350-H, 67 GT500, 67 6 cyl coupe, and a 70 428SCJ Mach 1)

and finally... I've owned a few cars with SU carbs... my Volvo 1800S's (2 of those) had pairs of SU-HS6's... I also know of a pair of SU-HS8 (RARE) that happen to be for sale




and now back to your build

[aceforever]

hahahahha.... Can add [img]http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/money/smileys-money-845799.gif[/img

Yeah of course. I like to hear from others very much. It makes me feel less like I'm just talking to an empty room lol.

Interesting you had a bunch of american cars! I'm kind of itching to go american at some point but the 86 is where my heart is at the moment. How were they? Fun in a straight line? Any issues?

Haha awesome SU's they look like they're in great shape.

---

Just saw a set of used 264/256 8.3mm lift HKS cams for sale locally. Anyone how to check it for issues? Is it a good cam for the streets?

Thanks!

[oldeskewltoy]

hahahahha.... Can add [img]http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/money/smileys-money-845799.gif[/img

Yeah of course. I like to hear from others very much. It makes me feel less like I'm just talking to an empty room lol.

Interesting you had a bunch of american cars! I'm kind of itching to go american at some point but the 86 is where my heart is at the moment. How were they? Fun in a straight line? Any issues?

Haha awesome SU's they look like they're in great shape.

---

Just saw a set of used 264/256 8.3mm lift HKS cams for sale locally. Anyone how to check it for issues? Is it a good cam for the streets?

Thanks!

Of the American iron I've owned....The GT350-H handled pretty well.... the others were various shades of understeer.... as far as straight line.... They all could roast the tires.... well all but the 6 cyl coupe.

Owning an American Muscle/Pony car is a lot like having sex in only the missionary position... you get pretty good at it, but it gets boring fast.


As to the HKS cams... check them on a V block is the simplest.... if you have a cam grinder nearby, you can pay them a few $$ to check them..... They are a decent street cam......

[jondee86]

Just saw a set of used 264/256 8.3mm lift HKS cams for sale locally. Anyone
know how to check it for issues?

Check the journals for circular scratching or grooving caused by material embedded
in the aluminum of the head and cam caps. Some minor scratching is to be expected
on a used cam and does not affect performance.

Check the tips of the lobes for pitting/loss of material, flats worn in the lobe close
to the tip, and a pointy lobe tip instead of a nicely rounded one. These are all signs
of a worn cam. Minor signs of wear can be accepted if the price is right, but once
the tip gets to be pointy instead of rounded, the cam should be avoided.


Extreme example !!!


Not so easy to see example...

As said, those cams would be nice with factory engine management. However, if
you have aftermarket engine management, you can run more aggressive cams and
get a far more "interesting" performance lift

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for the tips guys! I love learning new things.

@oldskewltoy: A V block just looks like a block with a V that looks about 90 degrees? is it to check for uniformity on each side of the lob?

@jondee86: I've read that having higher duration cams causes you to lose lower end power. I spend most of my time around 4-5k RPM, so preferably I should get some cams that perform well around that rpm and higher right? What is mysterious to me is how you can determine which duration will give you best power at which rpm range.

[jondee86]

Kind of a Rule of Thumb... lift is good for torque, and duration is good for power.
The cam grind, other engine modifications and your engine tuning will determine
where in the rev range peak torque and power occur. For a street engine you want
as much lift as you can get and medium duration.

This cam is one that I would be looking at if I was planning to build another N.A.
engine... http://www.camshaftshop.com/products.php?productid=818

And of course, you can expect to get varying opinions on cam selection

Cheers... jondee86

[oldeskewltoy]

Thanks for the tips guys! I love learning new things.

@oldskewltoy: A V block just looks like a block with a V that looks about 90 degrees? is it to check for uniformity on each side of the lob?

@jondee86: I've read that having higher duration cams causes you to lose lower end power. I spend most of my time around 4-5k RPM, so preferably I should get some cams that perform well around that rpm and higher right? What is mysterious to me is how you can determine which duration will give you best power at which rpm range.

V blocks are so you can check run out - look in FSM in the cylinder head section. To check for lobe condition, jondee came up with good examples.


As far as longer duration cams, and losing low end... a lot has to do with how much static compression you run. A stock 4AGE was mild from Toyota so that the engine could be as versatile and emissions compliant as possible. There is a great deal of room to build more power, but to do so careful thought should be used when building/purchasing. You can use a DCR/ECR (dynamic compression ratio/effective compression ratio) calculator to HELP you decide. A DCR/ECR calculator is just a tool, as with any tool, it usually doesn't work alone. A well built 4AGE can withstand a DCR of around 9.5, a DCR between 9.0 and 9.5 tend to be easier to run, but doesn't produce the same power. With a DCR that high(around 9.5) you will likely need higher octane fuel. A well ported head can more easily tolerate higher DCR because it tends to be more efficient, and can withstand higher compression.

As an example... a stock TVIS/largeport 9.4 to 1 engine has a DCR of 8.26, while a stock non-TVIS (smallport) has a DCR of 9.35. It is important to note that the smallport engines used a knock sensor to adjust for knock/too low an octane.

As far as what cams you can/can't run, a LOT of it has to still do with versatility, and emissions. Lets look at emissions first. Depending on where you are, you may have to pass emissions testing. Most of the performance enhancements don't work well with emissions compliance, some do. As to versatility, how the engine is controlled, you have full control with the Haltech so you can do "tricks" to help it pass.


As to cam choice... I tend to favor a bit less cam then others do

And of course, you can expect to get varying opinions on cam selection

Cheers... jondee86

I tend to like cams in the 220-226 degree @ .050" duration that run lifts of about 8.5mm. They tend to idle better, and have overall good character, with both low speed manners, and high rpm power.

[aceforever]

Hey guys! Sorry about the slow reply, it was my birthday recently and I'm still recovering from all the activities.

Ah looks like there are two schools of thought. I don't think I know enough to be even able to choose which type I'd like better.
jondee86 suggests "284/278 Duration, 9.20mm/8.50mm Lift" (does this mean I need to go with aftermarket shims?)


oldeskewltoy suggests "220-226 degree @ .050" duration that run lifts of about 8.5mm" (btw, what is the @ .050" mean?)

---

The engine currently in the car is a Big port, TVIS w/ 7-rib block. Probably low compression, most likely with 9.4:1 static compression ratio. Would it be better to just rebuild the engine I already have than trying to procure an old non-TVIS block? It's getting hard to find those smallports.

My E6X does not have a knock sensor input wire, but it does have some trim inputs that I'm guessing allows you to reduce ignition advance when hooked up with a knock sensor controller?

I live in Washington state, and my car does not need emissions testing. It only requires emission testing for cars 1993-2008 based on here: http://www.emissiontestwa.com/e/faq.aspx#2

This should help provide more context

[jondee86]

jondee86 suggests "284/278 Duration, 9.20mm/8.50mm Lift" (does this mean I need
to go with aftermarket shims?)
oldeskewltoy suggests "220-226 degree @ .050" duration that run lifts of about 8.5mm"
(btw, what is the @ .050" mean?)

The cams that I linked are listed with...

Duration @ 1.00mm VALVE LIFT, Intake: 244 and Exhaust: 236

By comparison 0.050" is 1.27mm, so the 193-B duration at 0.050" will be a bit less putting
them right in the oldeskewltoy ballpark.

The makers also state for the 193-Series camshafts...

The 193-camshafts below feature maximum area design and give the highest lift in the
industry while working perfectly with the stock diameter shim.

I have no particular allegiance to Kelford cams other than they are made here
in NZ and I support local product when I think it is worthy

You would need to crank your compression up to take advantage of a cam with
that kind of lift and duration... maybe look at getting the head ported if you can
find someone up for the task not too far away

Cheers... jondee86

[oldeskewltoy]

The engine currently in the car is a Big port, TVIS w/ 7-rib block. Probably low compression, most likely with 9.4:1 static compression ratio. Would it be better to just rebuild the engine I already have than trying to procure an old non-TVIS block? It's getting hard to find those smallports.

Have I introduced you to Skippy (87 FX16 - TVIS largport)? She is easily making more power then most smallports


fully ported OST head, mounted on to a Loynings assembled shortblock - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18040


The sweet thing is if you want a bit more power... she'll take to a set of cams(up to 264 type) like a duck to water........ I'll refer you to our chat above.......

Just saw a set of used 264/256 8.3mm lift HKS cams for sale locally.... Is it a good cam for the streets?

Thanks!

As to the HKS cams... They are a decent street cam......

[aceforever]

Thanks jondee86 for explaining to me the duration @ valve lift! It's odd to me that manufacturers advertise for a much higher duration.

oldskewltoy, Skippy seems very tempting, however I do not have space for another car here. No room at all to do an engine swap. It's pretty unfortunate but my garage is really tiny.

[aceforever]

Finally got my car into the body shop. Been planning for this for a few months now, and it's finally happening!

I offered to help with taking parts off the car to help meet the budget.

[jondee86]

Wow... big job !!! I hope you can remember how to put it back together again

You gonna go with black again, or change the colour ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

It took 5 hours to finish. The shop owner helped me with getting the linkage off the door handle and also with the quarter window trim. We did break some of the clips

I certainly hope I can put things back lol. I left breadcrumbs by putting fasteners on the studs when possible otherwise I label and put in separate cups.

I'm a bit embarrassed to say, but I am going to go with the panda paint scheme. I know I know, it's unoriginal. But I really like the look.

[jondee86]

... I am going to go with the panda paint scheme... I really like the look.

When it comes to how your car looks, there is only one person you have to please

I always liked two-tone cars, especially some of the big Mercs from the 80's and 90's
that came out with conservative light grey over dark grey or silver and grey. And
the reverse Panda is cool, as it emphasises the wheels...



I might get round to doing something like this one day if I find a body kit that I like.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Haha nice! I think my car was gray/black to begin with, but after replacing panels, matte spray paint overall was probably better than mismatched panels.

[aceforever]

Great progress on the smashed in rear quarter panel by the body shop:





The yellow almost looks like there were some bondo all over the rear from the previous owners? But it's odd though, since the two tone paint crease seems OEM?

The shop techs did a really good job in pulling out the damage though!

[jondee86]

This looks nice in B&W



Wonder what it would look like on a real car ? Photoshop anyone ?

Cheers... jondee86