Ball Joints & Lower Control Arms

[ZINCHOTRAN]

I thought of making a new post.

Here goes. Has anyone replaced their ball joints with Autozone's part number FA1272, and found out that the ball joint would go up into the control arm and it would be loose?

What would any of you recommend to correct this problem?

New lower control arms or try to get the ball joints replaced with either the same part number or should I just take my time and find ball joints from MOOG? MOOG's ball joints are supposedly oversized a little.

[b-rock]

I had this problem with TRW ball joints on one LCA... The hole in the LCA was the problem. I had it tacked in very carefully with a TIG welder... a common thing to do around here.

Next time, I will try to shrink the hole with a torch.... Heating steel shrinks (edit: when it cools normally) it if you didn't know...

BIG EDIT: I get super-schooled by yoshimitsuspeed on this later...

[ZINCHOTRAN]

Would the torch from a common benzomatic work?

[b-rock]

I would think so... It doesn't need a great deal of heat. Research shrinking steel. It's very common in bodywork... Don't quench it.... let it cool on its own.

Start slowly and try... Heating mild steel does not harm it or change its properties -- unless it is quenched... then it hardens.

[ZINCHOTRAN]

Cool. I'll try it and see. I'm sure it'll work. Maybe I should buy an IR thermometer to check the surface temp so it's the same on both sides.

[totta crolla]

Ask yourself this question:
"would Toyota have designed it this way ?"
No ?
Then do the job properly and use the parts that fit correctly in the first place.
Your life (or someone else) may depend on it......

[b-rock]

I think hole in the LCA stretches when the balljoint is pressed out... It may not be the balljoint's OD that's wrong.. Metallurgically, it's 100% fine to heat it.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I had this problem with TRW ball joints on one LCA... The hole in the LCA was the problem. I had it tacked in very carefully with a TIG welder... a common thing to do around here.

Next time, I will try to shrink the hole with a torch.... Heating steel shrinks it if you didn't know...

I would think so... It doesn't need a great deal of heat. Research shrinking steel. It's very common in bodywork... Don't quench it.... let it cool on its own.

Start slowly and try... Heating mild steel does not harm it or change its properties -- unless it is quenched... then it hardens.

You should stick to teaching what you know for a fact that you know. Especially when it comes to vital parts like steering and suspension.
Heating metal causes it to expand. Cooling metal causes it to shrink. Unrestricted metal will shrink back to it's exact original dimensions. It is only when you restrict the metal in some way that you can change it's dimensions.
The only way he could make the hole smaller is if he heated it unevenly so it had restricted expansion and free contraction. If he did this he would create highly stressed points in the metal. Even if it didn't crack on it's own it would me much more likely to fail when stress, vibration or impact is applied.
This applies to all metals and many other materials but is specifically more dangerous on cast iron and cast steel.

Heating it enough to cause this expansion and contraction would also likely anneal any hardened metal. Even if a metal hasn't been specifically hardened important structural components like a spindle will have likely gone through a specific cooling process to give it controlled strength and flexibility properties. Heating the metal enough to cause restricted expansion or contraction will likely change these properties.

http://www.locknstitch.com/expansion_contraction.htm

[b-rock]

Steel shrinks more than it expands when heated. Period.

LCAs are not hardened. They are stamped mild steel. Heat it, let it cool and it does not change.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Steel shrinks more than it expands when heated. Period.

This statement is 100% false.
Did you watch the video I posted that was made by people who specialize in welding and metallurgy?
Lookup coefficient of thermal expansion.
You are awfully arrogant for being so ignorant. I hate to come off as an ass but if you are going to come on here and spout such false BS with such confidence you need someone to give you a little virtual slap to the face before you give someone some bad information that could harm them or others.

LCAs are not hardened. They are stamped mild steel. Heat it, let it cool and it does not change.

As I already said even if it's not hardened it cold have gone through a specific heating and cooling process to give it the right properties. Even mild steel can be significantly effected by how it's heated and cooled. Like I also said if someone were to heat metal in a way that actually caused dimensional changes it would put the component under a great deal of internal stress that could greatly increase the chance of failure.

Since I provided a source backing up my claim that has better credentials than I do I shouldn't have to share my own but obviously that isn't enough.

I have been a welder and fabricator for 16 years. I have built boats, choppers, cars and industrial equipment. I have worked in thermoplastics where I have studied CTE in depth and designed many molds and other parts that needed to retain specific dimensional properties over a range of extreme temperatures.
My specialty and passion is turbocharging motors. If your statement was true the exhaust system, turbine, compressor housing and the rest of a cars exhaust system would shrink a little bit every time it was run. Eventually the tolerances inside the turbo would no longer be acceptable. Hell eventually your exhaust system would shrink so much your car wouldn't run. Your statement defys the laws of physics.
If you are so right then back it up with something more than cocky attitude.

[b-rock]

I get where you're coming from, but chill out a bit. I did advise to research shrinking steel.

Obviously there is a limit to how much steel will shrink... It will shrink once from where it started when originally formed. Ever welded? Steel shrinks. I have a shrinking tip for my MIG welder.... Try heating the middle of a piece of sheet metal....

Fine, if it were mine, I would not hesitate to try it. There is much precedent for heating (welding) LCAs... It's regular practice to cut and weld LCAs... and NO HARM DONE.

[idreamofdrifting]

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I get where you're coming from, but chill out a bit. I did advise to research shrinking steel.

I feel like you still haven't watched the video I posted. It explains the process better than I can in any reasonable amount of time.
Shrinking metal only works if the metal is being constrained in some way. You don't seem to be getting this.

A weld bead distorts metal because it is liquid steel surrounded by cold, solid steel. As you weld the molten steel shrinks while the solid steel doesn't want to move.
If you heated the whole piece just short of melting temp and then welded it you would get even shrinkage and no distortion. This is why you absolutely have to pre heat cast iron to weld it properly. Steel is less temperamental but it is exposed to the exact same forces.

Obviously there is a limit to how much steel will shrink... It will shrink once from where it started when originally formed.

Again, completely false.
Metal will expand and contract with the exact same properties every time it is heated and cooled. The only way it wont is if it's somehow constrained in a way in which it cannot expand and contract as it normally would.

Ever welded

Once or twice. Here is about 4000 lbs hanging 15 feet in the air by two 1/2" by 2" tabs of flatstock I welded to the top of the beam.


More importantly I have studied and know how to weld metal with almost zero shrinkage or distortion.

Try heating the middle of a piece of sheet metal....

If you heat the middle of a piece of sheet metal it will try to expand. Since it's surrounded by cold hard steel on all sides it will deform and try to expand outward to the sides exposed by air. Once it starts to cool the metal has distorted and grown dimensionally thicker leaving less material in the length. If there is too much sheet metal like with a dent then some of the dent will be pulled out. If there is no extra metal then it will pull on it's self and create inner stresses that distort the shape of the metal and make it weaker.
If you heated the whole sheet evenly and let it cool down evenly it would be dimensionally identical to before.

This would be so much easier if you just watched the damn video.

[b-rock]

Ok you win. I'm schooled. I was taught about shrinkage otherwise.... backyard-style.

So, you see no way to shrink the hole with heat? Even if you think it imprudent?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Ok you win. I'm schooled. I was taught about shrinkage otherwise.... backyard-style.

So, you see no way to shrink the hole with heat? Even if you think it imprudent?

Only if somehow you could constrain all other dimensions. So lets say we could wrap the whole assembly in some super hard and strong material that wouldn't expand with the heat and constrained everything except the bore and then heated it up enough the metal would have to expand into the bore.


There may be some chance you could shrink it by heating up one small section of the radius at a time so that small strip is surrounded by cold metal, then the small strip would get forced inward and outward. If you let it cool and then repeated the process all the way around the circumfrence one small section at a time I could see it being plausible but like I said this would impart a ton of internal stresses similar to the block in the vid. It's also quite likely to distort the bore so it may not make even contact with the ball joint.
Any time you do something like this to a machined surface you want to machine it after and even if you could shrink the hole at all I doubt it would be enough to machine, or in this case possibly just ream it without loosing too much material again.

If this is a cheap or easy to find part I wouldn't waste my time. If I had to do something to reduce the diameter of the bore I would look at other options. One option might be a thin coating with some hard brazing rod then reaming it to the right diameter. Plating it might be another option. There may also be certain coatings that would work. The ceramic coatings I apply are incredibly strong and hard. I would have to research it but I wouldn't be surprised if they could hold up the loads that area sees.

[ZINCHOTRAN]

Just so we are all on page one. I don't do haphazard fixes. I research and look at each feasible outcome based on time and money. If I was a rich man, yada yada, I'd create an all aluminum AE86.

Keep it real to your wallet and physics. MOOG's part numbers changed. So if you saw the post with the part numbers for the inner and outer tie rods and ball joints, you'd know Japan's 555=TRW+MOOG. MOOG states their problem solver ball joints are oversized. I had a really hard time looking for the ball joints. Rock Auto, ebay, autozone, O'reilly etc.

I may or may not tack them into place. More than likely, I will return the autozone ball joints, even though they say made in Japan. Then MOOGS will be purchased and installed.

We all love our cars. SAFETY is paramount.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I am currently trying to pick up a direct distributor account with Moog right now. If you need any help finding parts or want me to price anything out let me know.

[ZINCHOTRAN]

Don't worry, I'll ask. Hope you get the account. It'll be difficult but worth it.

[MisterJerk]

If I was a rich man, yada yada, I'd create an all aluminum AE86.

I would too. Aluminum or stainless steel. I wanted to real bad after I went to the PI and saw all the stainless or aluminum jeepneys. Bare metal brushed stainless ae86, who wouldnt love that.

On topic, Check with RPM motor in the classified, they sell the ball joints you need, and are willing to let you talk their ear off.

[ZINCHOTRAN]

RPM? I'll check 'em out. Thanks.

Brushed stainless. DrooL.......

[MisterJerk]

Brushed stainless. DrooL.......

Exactly, like a dope zippo, only with longchamp xr4's

[ZINCHOTRAN]

A few minutes ago I talked to someone in the technical services department of MOOG. I asked if there was a difference between the outside diameter of the 'new old stock' which has 7022 stamped on the bottom from the new stock 'problem solver' ball joints which are stamped with MOOG PROBLEM SOLVER. He said the outside diameters are the same.

I've been fretting over those dimensions for quite some time. If MOOGS K9083 doesn't need to be pressed into my LCA's, then my LCA's are bad and I'll need new ones.

I thought about making small cuts around the bottom circumference of the LCA. Then I'd push them in and tack them. That way I'd be able to get the ball joints pushed into place and feel safe on the road. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Fingers crossed