first project AE86...bought in pieces, wtf!

[richkid79]

So I came across this ae86 for super cheap...apparently it has a twin cam swap with supercharged head and celica supra diff. I'm not new to engine swaps (my e39 BMW 528 has a 1jz swap) and I have mix and match parts on my 3 other e36s. I love drifting my M3 but ripping out the subframe bc of drifting is annoying. So this brings me to this 86. I love the simplicity but I realize I know nothing of this motor. Hopefully you guys can help...otherwise I'll just throw the 1jz in it and call it a day.

[carbd7age]

I had to replace the subframe in my buddy's e36 convertible, MAJOR PITA lol. Well it looks like you've got a supercharged intake manifold....but no supercharger or piping. Do you have more stuff?

[richkid79]

Basically I bought this car unfinished and hacked up. I guess it used to be carburated but now its FI but missing injectors and fuel rail. I don't know what ecu is in there and what has been done to the harness. Ive seen the engine run but it was from a mechanic spraying fuel into the injector holes. The diff has been changed but I don't know how it was done. The parking brake doesn't work and I'm not sure if the headlights pop up. No vacuum lines or spark plug wires installed and unplugged connectors everywhere. Do I try to fix this headache, or should I just get a BT or ST complete swap with unhacked harness and go from there? Maybe use this engine and a megasquirt? What would you guys do? I'm trying to find a starting point so I know where to go in terms of building the car.

[richkid79]

I have no extra parts so far...I'm supposed to get the reworked driveshaft from the shop next week. The guy I bought the car from "says" that the supercharger is being rebuilt but needs a supercharger bracket. I'm not sure if I want to go s/c over turbo (yes, bc turbo makes cool sounds) but I know the s/c might be best for the power delivery without having to double clutch in order to spool.

[MisterJerk]

i think your best bet would be to aquire the rest of the supercharger stuff, if there is a 4agze block under the head. If not, RWD intake mani, big port /small port adaptor, wiring, injectors, ecu, etc from ae86, bigport(bluetop, zenki, w/e) and just have fun with and learn the platform.

[ga_goosh]

I would get her running with what is in there now either na or another sc12 or this may be a good time to go turbo. you would have a lot more to do swaping to 20v but if that is what you want and you obviously know how to swap motors and make them run so it really is up to your prefference. im a 16v guy so.... i also have an e36 and man it is so discouraging to work on german cars. compared to the e36 the corolla is a walk in the park. i would rather pull rebuild and reinstall a 4ag in a 86 then change the starter in the e36.

[rumsawatti]

Are you in FL? I think I saw this same car for sale, needed a lot of work lol good luck man

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I'm curious about that supercharger. The SC12/14 are non serviceable. The only way to rebuild it would be to machine the bearing journals and use other bearings. Even machining the OD the it's almost impossible to find a proper bearing to match the other dimensions. In the end a one off rebuild like this would cost more than a turbo conversion or custom mounts for something like an M90. Heck you could probably almost do a twinscrew for little more.

One thing that people often overlook when considering a turbo is that the SC12 is almost impossible to get to 200WHP. Even with cams, a tune and some other work it's not likely to get much above 180.
If you actually put on a turbo that was near it's limits around 200WHP that thing would spool for all intents and purposes as fast as the SC12. Even a turbo good for 250-270WHP will spool lighting fast over 3500 RPM.

Even if it's not on a GZE bottom end I would still boost it personally. Even 5-6 PSI will gain you power that would be hard and expensive to hit NA. Plus then you can just keep building it up as you want more power.

A compression test should give you a good sign of what bottom end is in there and give you a rough idea of how much boost it could take.
Whatever you do I would get rid of that GZE manifold and put something proper on there.
I make intake flanges for the 4AGE and can fabricate custom intake manifolds for it too.
http://matrixgarage.com/store/4age-fabrication-supplies


This is the first intake mani I ever made and the only one I have made for a 16V. This one used a custom one off flange before I offered a production piece.

[Not You]

I wouldnt bother with the SC stuff. You would need a custom harness made, ECU, SC, SC piping, Intercooler, Fuel pump relay/SC relay junction, injectors, fuel pump, etc. I would sell the stuff you got and just put in a 20V. It will be cheaper and wiring would be easier.

Parking brake not working: I'll just assume this is because of the swapped diff. So either you would need to make brackets for the ebrake using existing line. Or assuming you dont have lines; aquire lines and brackets and make bracket for the caliper.

Headlights not popping up: Check the relay and fuses first. Then address the motors and wiring. The headlamp circuit is the harness running under your core support from drivers side kick panel to pass kick panel

[richkid79]

Wow, that intake looks nice...I'm starting to think I'll just go 20v. And yes I got the car in central Florida

[Red]

The SR5 was built with a 4AC carbed engine. The blue lettering on your engine indicates it is a "bluetop", the lowcompression 1985 version of the 4AGE fuel injected engine. Which was only shipped on the GT-S, and only normally aspirated, never boosted. The boosted engines were used on MR2s, so this engine is a pull from an MR2 or some other mod.

If you read the faq and tech ref sections you should be able to figure out what you've got and what the options are for it. A lot can be interchanged-but some can't, unless you're a machinist with a shop.

When you've got a frankencar that was abandoned before it was fiinished, for whatever reason, you have to consider that some of the parts and installation may be flat out wrong, so assume nothing. Read up, try to identify what you've got (engine, harness, adapters, tranny) before you tear into it.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I love the 20V. For a DD I would take it over a GZE or i6v GTE not to mention the NA 16 valves.
That said though for drifting or racing the only way I would take the 20V is boosted and that is not the cheapest way to go.
Just to play devils advocate to the suggestions of going 20v I'll throw a couple links out there.

Here is a NA 4AGE with stock engine and stock ECU. Probably had some minor tweaks to take the boost well.
This is on a turbo good for 250+ WHP. You can see the curve right at the beginning of the dyno. That is most likely where he hit full boost.


Below Is a link to a number of 20V dynos. Some with some decent mods.
Here is the best dyno of the lot that is anywhere near stock.
The 16V turbo makes more power from 3000 to about 7000 RPM. Manoy of the other dynos make the turbo look even better.
More importantly, at this point getting any more out of the 20V becomes very expensive whereas with the turbo this is just the beginning. Even on the stock internals and ECU it shouldn't be hard to squeeze another 20 HP out of that setup with some time and maybe an FMU.


http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id ... 288&page=1

[richkid79]

can anyone tell me how to identify this ecu? Sorry about the big ass pics. That last pic has some writing on the right hand corner, you may have to click on the pic then pan right to see it

[richkid79]

And ive come to the decision that I want to spend as little $ as possible and have fun with this car. With that being said, Im turning into an old lazy bastard and want to do the least amount of wrenching also. Sand the car down, primer it and maybe go overfenders. I dont know how to do body work but once was manager of a body shop for a while so I think I can figure it out or at least cover it up with massive amounts of paint. Single stage white from Finishmaster will do fine. Im thinking 160-180hp is the goal at the moment.

[richkid79]

im almost positive my harness is a giant clusterf#ck. Whats the best way to go without too much wiring? ITBs are cool. Thanks guys for your help. Ive learned much here @ club4ag

[richkid79]

even better question? are my current parts worth selling in order to restart the project my way? Or are these parts worthless? Maybe if i had a fuel rail with injectors i could find out. Heres the video of the car running. I wasnt actually there to see this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa9JT8eMrw

[Red]

The parts may be worth nothing unless you can figure out just what they are. Folks won't pay much unless they know "for sure" which ones they are buying, so you need to try figuring out what you've got, or else just say "* it" and put up some photos and sell it as is to someone who wants to play around.

On doing the least amount of wiring...yup, a carb is the simplest way to go, get rid of all the EFI electronics and computer. ITBs will be more work for more power. Or if you've got a good shop local, say "takee fixee" and tell them to clean it out and do the ITBs for you. Let someone who has the experience with these engines do the job, because there are SOME oddities that can baffle the hell out of someone who isn't expecting some of the odd little things Toyota did in those years.

Finding someone local, or a couple of locals, who are familiar with the car and having them eyeball what you've got may give you some better ideas.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

On doing the least amount of wiring...yup, a carb is the simplest way to go, get rid of all the EFI electronics and computer.

That would be like hanging up your gun in exchange for an atlatl because you are too lazy to go buy bullets.

ITBs for more power.

Maybe once you have $10k into your NA high compression, big cam build.

Because there are SOME oddities that can baffle the hell out of someone who isn't expecting some of the odd little things Toyota did in those years.

Huh? Like what? The 4AGE is an incredibly straightforward motor and it's engine management is about as straightforward as engine management gets.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

And ive come to the decision that I want to spend as little $ as possible and have fun with this car. Im thinking 160-180hp is the goal at the moment.

You are coming very close to contradicting yourself here but not quite because there are more affordable routes than others.

Any NA 16v 4A build and or carbed build will be very expensive to get to those power goals.
If you are talking CHP then a BT will get you to the bottom of that number but every HP after that will be very expensive.
If you are talking about WHP then getting a BT even to 160 won't be the cheapest way to that power.
Even if you had a SC12 and all the mounting hardware to bolt it up you would still need a bigger pulley, gruntbox and cams to get to that target. Once you hit that point if you still want to grow more you are pretty limited without spending a good chunk more money.

Get your EFI figured out and throw a turbo on there and 160 WHP should be pretty easy to achieve.
If you have a GZE longblock then you can grow a lot more from there. If you have an NA bottom end then you can push it a little further pretty cheap. At that point you decide if it's worth it to build a long block with some GZE pistons in it.

[Red]

yoshi-
"a carb is the simplest way to go, get rid of all the EFI electronics and computer. "
That would be like hanging up your gun in exchange for an atlatl because you are too lazy to go buy bullets.
Special forces members all over the world will tell you that a knife never runs out of bullets. That's one reason why they all carry the latest firearms--but also still use knives.
The OP asked about what was simplest. No electronics is simpler than trhying to figure out what mystery engine he has, and what computer might be programmed properly for it. And what ignition module has the matching timing and dwell program for that ECU as well. Sure, you can bolt up something and make it work. That's not the same as working properly, and a lot of folks get ITBs working very well without investing lots of time on electronics.
If you can recognize his ECU, which appears to have had the labels intentionally scraped off, and then figure out what mods were done to his engine, what electronics will rok properly with it, and oh, right, put that on a dyno to test and adjust it if you're going to use a custom ECU...great. DO IT, help him out, don't just tell him to do what he doesn't want to do.

"Red wrote:
ITBs for more power. "
Maybe once you have $10k into your NA high compression, big cam build.
Uh, no. A conventional carbed 4AC has limited power and you need more carb to get more power. There have been plenty of posts from members using ITBs. And none of us knows whether his engine is stock compression or stock cams, he's got a homebrewed no one knows what in there.

Red wrote:
Because there are SOME oddities that can baffle the hell out of someone who isn't expecting some of the odd little things Toyota did in those years.
Huh? Like what? The 4AGE is an incredibly straightforward motor and it's engine management is about as straightforward as engine management gets."
Sure, straightforward. Like the VAST ignition system, with separate start/run distributor coils, and totally undocumented timing and dwell variations among the ECUs and ignition modules. And changes from MAF to AFM that seem to baffle mechanics. Oh, and Toyota also used a "reveresed ground" to the headlights and horn, supplying constant hot instead of constant ground, and turning them on by supplying ground instead of hot, which has surprised folks like Philips. One of the world's largest lighting manufacturers, and the only one who made DOT-legal HIDs, and they were surprised to learn they can't be used on old Toyotas because (drumroll) Toyota was the only car maker in the world to use reversed polarity on the headlights.

No, it isn't rocket science. But without a manual, and the knowledge to read it, and the extra knowledge that Toyota schematics DO NOT conform to US electrical schematic standards...these cars can baffle a lot of professionals.

When I had "no start after overnight shutdown" problems, I couldn't even find a Toyota dealer who'd commit to a firm upper limit on trying to find the problem. "We don't know, it could take one hour, or eight hours, to find out what could be wrong."

Right, in eight hours I could strip and replace the entire ignition system on a classic 60's Detroit product. At least four times, too.

So if he just wants to get it running, quick and cheap? Yeah, going back to stock SR5 configuration or upgrading form there (to ITBs) might be worth looking at. But if you think you can get him diagnosed, up and running....I'll bet he'll buy you a case of real good beer and a fine steak dinner for doing that. And not taking a month to do it.

[richkid79]

Yes I know I'm all over the place here with some ideas that are better than others, but that's the reason why I'm trying to figure it out BEFORE the build. I've wasted far too much time and money by changing my mind halfway through other builds. I have terrible ADD that has me starting new projects before i finish the last one (such as this) At first I wanted to go all out but now I'm trying to be practical and cheap. I've bookmarked the manuals online and will be pulling the engine apart next week to take a peek inside. Quick, easy and cheap is prob the best way to describe what I'm looking for (I'm not talking about my dates) with future potential to get 160-180hp once I get it all sorted and learn the car. Thanks. You guys have been great helping out a noob

[yoshimitsuspeed]

yoshi-
"a carb is the simplest way to go, get rid of all the EFI electronics and computer. "

He also said with a goal of 160-180 HP.
I would love to see your plans for a 170 HP carbed 4AGE along with a rough guess on the price it would cost to get it there.

yoshi-
Special forces members all over the world will tell you that a knife never runs out of bullets. That's one reason why they all carry the latest firearms--but also still use knives.

So you are saying he should run EFI but also carry carbs as a backup?
In my analogy getting bullets represented something very easy to acquire allowing you to use much more advanced and efficient technology making your life much better and much easier.
How does a knife not running out of bullets apply to the point you are trying to prove? Carbs are not infallable and have many issues of their own so I don't see it being in any way applicable.

The OP asked about what was simplest. No electronics is simpler than trhying to figure out what mystery engine he has, and what computer might be programmed properly for it. And what ignition module has the matching timing and dwell program for that ECU as well. Sure, you can bolt up something and make it work. That's not the same as working properly, and a lot of folks get ITBs working very well without investing lots of time on electronics.

Simpler in a way perhaps however in his case that does involve ripping out a bunch of wiring, presumably swapping fuel pumps and making other mods to run carbs.
Option a would be to buy all brand new components which will be quite costly or buy used stuff and rebuild it which will be more time consuming.
The ECU controls timing, and as far as I know dwell as well. Any way you cut it finding a compatible ignition is far from difficult. In fact if he currently has 4AGE parts then switching out to 4AC parts or finding an ignition solution for a carbed 4AGC will be much more expensive and time consuming.
I am starting to get the feeling that when you talk abotu ITBs you are talking about carbed ITBs. If that is the case then you should clarify because there are also EFI ITBs and they are more common than quad carbs in the 4AGE world. In fact if you are talking about quad carbs why not just call them that and save the confusion?

People can get carbs working quite well. They were a great solution for decades. They are antiquated technology at this point though and will never have the performance, efficiency or versatility of EFI. If someone is lucky they might be able to tune a set of carbs to perform roughly as well as L-jetronic EFI but that will change as soon as temp, humidity or any number of other variables change. We won't even get into the effects of elevation.

If you can recognize his ECU, which appears to have had the labels intentionally scraped off, and then figure out what mods were done to his engine, what electronics will rok properly with it, and oh, right, put that on a dyno to test and adjust it if you're going to use a custom ECU...great. DO IT, help him out, don't just tell him to do what he doesn't want to do.

This page should at least allow him to roughly figure out what ECU he has. Judging by the yellow clips I am going to say a standard 9.4:1 NA 4AGE ECU found in Corollas and MR2s.
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/models.html

He doesn't need a dyno to tune it but he will want a wideband if he plans to run boost. If he really wants to start pushing it knock monitoring and pyrometer would also be good but those are all things he can worry about down the road.
He hasn't yet told us what he wants to do or doesn't want to do so it's presumptuous of you to assume anything of the sort.

Uh, no. A conventional carbed 4AC has limited power and you need more carb to get more power. There have been plenty of posts from members using ITBs. And none of us knows whether his engine is stock compression or stock cams, he's got a homebrewed no one knows what in there.

He has a 4AGE head on that motor going 4AC would be taking four steps backward and putting quad carbs on it would be like taking half a step forward.
All that aside I would love to see a dyno of a stockish to moderately built 4AC that made considerably more power on quad carbs than it did on one properly sized single carb.

I would recomend he find out which bottom end and pistons he has in there which it sounds like he plans to do.
A bore scope will probably be enough for the pistons. Then pull the pan to see what crank and rods.
Any of them will run 5+ psi just fine as long as someone didn't do crazy decking on the block or something. That's why I suggested he do a compression test. Even if he is running SP pistons at stock static compression he could still boost it and HP/PSI gains would be great due to the compression.

Sure, straightforward. Like the VAST ignition system, with separate start/run distributor coils, and totally undocumented timing and dwell variations among the ECUs and ignition modules. And changes from MAF to AFM that seem to baffle mechanics.

The 4AGE is ESA not vast. If he goes back to a 4AC setup he will have to revert to VAST which again is antiquated, less reliable technology. Any way you cut it all the technology from this era is fairly simple for anyone with a reasonable understanding of mechanical theory and the drive to find the information that is out there.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

Any mechanic who is confused about a switch from AFM to MAP should be permanently benched and ship me all of their tools.
If you have access to a BGB for your motor none of this should be confusing. If you have a frankenmotor that may require more than one.
With a turbo blacktop running on a GZE ECU I need BGBs for both.

No, it isn't rocket science. But without a manual, and the knowledge to read it, and the extra knowledge that Toyota schematics DO NOT conform to US electrical schematic standards...these cars can baffle a lot of professionals.

Manuals are readily available online if you know who to ask or where to find them. The BGB wiring diagrams are the easiest to read diagrams I have ever come across. I feel bad for any "professional" who has trouble with them.

When I had "no start after overnight shutdown" problems, I couldn't even find a Toyota dealer who'd commit to a firm upper limit on trying to find the problem.

Diagnostics take time. It wouldn't matter what car you were driving, no self respecting mechanic would give you an upper limit of cost. Things can always come up or take you by surprise.

Right, in eight hours I could strip and replace the entire ignition system on a classic 60's Detroit product. At least four times, too.

Quite possibly but don't forget about needing to adjust the points regularly. Sometimes on the side of the road. The need to carry an extra ballast resistor not for the if, but for the when it blew.
There are some nice things about the simplicity of those cars but there are also some things that are a massive pita.
Also don't forget the power that this technology has gained us. My 259 (4.2 liter) 55 Studebaker President is factory rated at about the same HP as my 1.6 liter blacktop.
Now I will likely keep the carb on the president just to keep it period correct but on my MR2 I will gladly pay the price of the hassle of dealing with more wiring, ECUs and EFI for that increase in power/displacement. Plus I hate fking with points.

[Red]

"He also said with a goal of 160-180 HP.
I would love to see your plans for a 170 HP carbed 4AGE along with a rough guess on the price it would cost to get it there. "
I never said he could get everything he wanted. And to even talk about a "carbed 4AGE" is ridiculous, once you put carbs on that block, you effectively have a 4AC no matter what the pieces came from.


"So you are saying he should run EFI but also carry carbs as a backup? "
Rhetorical question?
"How does a knife not running out of bullets apply to the point you are trying to prove? Carbs are not infallable and have many issues of their own so I don't see it being in any way applicable. "
Knives, like carbs, are relaitvely simple. Once you move to EFI, or even a half-assed throttle body EFI like we have instead of real cylinder injection, life gets complicated. Injectors, computers, matching ignition electronics, fuel system complications, and of course the AFM/MAF and more associated wiring, the fuel cut-off relay and dual timing signals for starting versus running...
No, carbs aren't infallible and even in street use they should be rebuilt maybe every 5 years. The difference is, you can pull four bolts, take the carb off to a tabletop, do a total rebuild and pretty much anyone with good hand skills can do that in one afternoon.
Diagnosing and repairing an entire EFI system? As the official facgtory pros said, maybe an hour, maybe a day. Or two. Carb just needs one master rebuild kit and a gallon of gumout.

"Simpler in a way perhaps however in his case that does involve ..."
Doesn't matter what you and I think is simpler, HE asked about ripping it out and going with carbs. To some folks, electronics and computers are a great scary mystery and they want no part of it. I don't question that choice. Apparently you do.

"This page should at least allow him to roughly figure out what ECU he has. Judging by the yellow clips I am going to say a standard 9.4:1 NA 4AGE ECU found in Corollas and MR2s.
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/models.html "

"if he plans to run boost...it's presumptuous of you to assume anything of the sort. "
On the contrary, I haven't made any assumptions, I've just replied to his question. And since he hasn't mentioned boost, I'm not assuming anything about it. What do they say in the army? "Don't ask don't tell". No one mentioned boost.

"going 4AC would be taking four steps backward and putting quad carbs on it would be like taking half a step forward."
Yeah, but following Bill Sherwood's web site would pretty much give him the instructions for best bang for the buck right away. Except, so many folks think they can find a magic way to reinvent a better solution. Sometimes, someone does, but the options and limits to an AE8x with any period engine have pretty much been worked out long ago.

Like a 1950's Chinese restaurant menu, you take one from Column A, one from Column B, end of story. Price, performance, pick from each and that's that.

"I would recomend he find out which bottom end and pistons he has in there which it sounds like he plans to do."
Sure, but if I was starting with a box of parts and I wanted a 50% hp increase...first I'd find a good machine shop, order up some good parts instead of assuming the replaceable ones had never been stressed, and plan to have it blueprinted, ported, polished, CC'ed. And if it had a stock bluetop compression, fix that too.

"Any mechanic who is confused about a switch from AFM to MAP should be permanently benched and ship me all of their tools. "
Heheh. So the genuine factory authorized trained dealership mechanic who did my thousand-mile courtesy check and couldn't find the idle screw...Who sadly is or was typical of factory trained mechanics...

"Manuals are readily available online if you know who to ask or where to find them."
Oh, now you expect them to be able to READ as well?

"Quite possibly but don't forget about needing to adjust the points regularly."
On what planet? First time I adjusted points was on my '68 Mustang. Which sometimes got care at one of the leading Ford dealerships in the country. The mechanic asks me how I set the gap and I said I used a feeler gauge and he almost fell over in shock, I was within 1/2 degree of dead on. No great skill there, and never found it off much on regular tuneups.

"Also don't forget the power that this technology has gained us." Right, the way the new cars typically have a hundred sensors and ten more to tell you which ones have failed and all sorts of good stuff that gets nasty expensive to fix.

"Plus I hate fking with points." Most mechanics have callouses too thick to allow them to play the violin, cracking safes, or adjust points. Yes, I'm happy not to have to adjust them or file them, but really? Is it any worse than gapping and changing spark plugs used to be?

If we haven't totally lost the OP by now...he wants to do what he wants to do, whatever that is. Let him have fun doing it, his way. No matter what you do to a GT-S...a Nissan GTR can still get you locked up faster and longer.<VBG>

Column A, riceburner. Column B, "Officer, I'm on a donut run. Would you like to drive?"

[BlackStar]

pro tip: My 4ac distributor doesn't have points.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Man, your posts are a nightmare to try to read through. It would help a lot if you used quotes or separated the conversation better or something.

I have no extra parts so far...I'm supposed to get the reworked driveshaft from the shop next week. The guy I bought the car from "says" that the supercharger is being rebuilt but needs a supercharger bracket. I'm not sure if I want to go s/c over turbo (yes, bc turbo makes cool sounds) but I know the s/c might be best for the power delivery without having to double clutch in order to spool.

"He also said with a goal of 160-180 HP.
I would love to see your plans for a 170 HP carbed 4AGE along with a rough guess on the price it would cost to get it there. "
I never said he could get everything he wanted. And to even talk about a "carbed 4AGE" is ridiculous, once you put carbs on that block, you effectively have a 4AC no matter what the pieces came from.

Why make suggestions if they aren't going to get the OP what they want?
Why suggest a 4AC when it will take him further away from his goals?

Knives, like carbs, are relaitvely simple. Once you move to EFI, or even a half-assed throttle body EFI like we have instead of real cylinder injection, life gets complicated. Injectors, computers, matching ignition electronics, fuel system complications, and of course the AFM/MAF and more associated wiring, the fuel cut-off relay and dual timing signals for starting versus running...

Carbs are simple but they are time consuming in the day to day. You say they should be rebuild every 5 years but your average 4AGE lasts 200k miles without issue with the EFI. They can be a little more time consuming to troubleshoot but it should be little chance of that ever being necessary. On top of that 98% of the troubleshooting is very simple, it's just the rare occasion that things get tricky.
I have no idea what motor you are talking about with TB EFI or dual timing signals but it's not the route I'm suggesting.

To some folks, electronics and computers are a great scary mystery and they want no part of it.

If that is the case then he needs to sell the car and buy something that makes the power he is looking for in stock form or he needs to go pay someone to build his motor for him. L-jetronic is pretty simple equipment and pretty easy to figure out if you take a minute to learn it.

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"if he plans to run boost...it's presumptuous of you to assume anything of the sort. "

Not really. All 16V 4AGE ECUs have proven quite capable of running low to moderate boost so I can confidently say that if it is a 16v 4AGE ECU he can run some boost on it relatively easy. More important than the ECU, how much boost he can run will come down to compression, pistons, and tuning. All AFM ECUs can be tweaked quite a bit and even a MAP ECU should compensate for light boost.

On the contrary, I haven't made any assumptions, I've just replied to his question. And since he hasn't mentioned boost, I'm not assuming anything about it. What do they say in the army? "Don't ask don't tell". No one mentioned boost.

I have no extra parts so far...I'm supposed to get the reworked driveshaft from the shop next week. The guy I bought the car from "says" that the supercharger is being rebuilt but needs a supercharger bracket. I'm not sure if I want to go s/c over turbo (yes, bc turbo makes cool sounds) but I know the s/c might be best for the power delivery without having to double clutch in order to spool.

If you are going to try and start SHT with me you should really do a better job of researching and explaining your point of view. If you just keep pulling random S out of your A this is going to be a very short lived conversation.

Even if he hadn't mentioned boost he did say he wanted to get to X power goal for the least amount of money and the fact is that turbocharging is almost always at the top of that list.

Yeah, but following Bill Sherwood's web site would pretty much give him the instructions for best bang for the buck right away. Except, so many folks think they can find a magic way to reinvent a better solution. Sometimes, someone does, but the options and limits to an AE8x with any period engine have pretty much been worked out long ago.

Bill Sherwoods site has a lot of great info but it also has some misinformation and the good information is also very much out of date. Lot's of things have been learned and accomplished since the last time it was updated.
I haven't seen those pages change since I got into the scene around 2004. Back then if you had suggested you could run 13+:1 compression on pump gas, 15 PSI boost on a stock internal silvertop or 7 PSI on a stock internal BT on a GZE ECU you would have been laughed out of town. Nowadays those have all been proven possible and similar setups are fairly commonplace.

Sure, but if I was starting with a box of parts and I wanted a 50% hp increase...first I'd find a good machine shop, order up some good parts instead of assuming the replaceable ones had never been stressed, and plan to have it blueprinted, ported, polished, CC'ed. And if it had a stock bluetop compression, fix that too.

It depends on what direction you want to go and once again you prove my point. If you want to spend $10k to do that NA then yes you will need to do all of the above.
If you slap a small turbo on and run low boost then none of the above are important. Those things are only important when you plan on spinning the motor considerably faster than stock and have it swallowing a much larger volume of air than stock.

Heheh. So the genuine factory authorized trained dealership mechanic who did my thousand-mile courtesy check and couldn't find the idle screw...Who sadly is or was typical of factory trained mechanics..

Yes, most mechanics, even many factory techs don't deserve the title or the pay grade.

Oh, now you expect them to be able to READ as well?

If that's not possible then this is all in vain.

Right, the way the new cars typically have a hundred sensors and ten more to tell you which ones have failed and all sorts of good stuff that gets nasty expensive to fix.

The BT that I referred to has a handful of sensors. If you are diligent and resourceful they are generally cheap and plentiful at junk yards.
Again a small price to pay for over 100HP/ liter compared to 32 hp/ liter.

If we haven't totally lost the OP by now...he wants to do what he wants to do, whatever that is. Let him have fun doing it, his way.

I couldn't agree more. In fact I have zero issue with the OP and still have no idea what he plans to do. It doesn't sound like he is sure himself.

If he chooses to throw a 4AC in there and pursue 180 hp then all the power to him. I hope he has fun doing it.
If he wants to do a build that I am familiar with and can wrap my mind around then I will do all I can to help.

[carbd7age]

He's probably already scrapped the car and went back to his BMW's. Great team work gang.

[Red]

Eric-
If he scrapped the car parts (since it wasn't running, it wasn't a car, it was car parts <G>) that just makes the rest of them worth more. Beamer will give him more power faster, so that could be a good thing too. They've got a nice little aluminum and magnesium engine from the Z4 that makes any Toyota block look like a ModelT anyhow.

yoshi-
"It would help a lot if you used quotes or..."
I do use quotes. "Quote marks". Your computer may show them as "inch" marks rather than proper quote marks, but they are here. No, I don't use the color blocked HTML stuff, but I do use quote marks, or I'll use italics.
Life's a bitch, every message on every screen isn't shown in HTML, so us old fossils stick to the old crude ways of doing things. Like, our old cars. <VBG>

Cutting to the chase:
"If he chooses to... I hope he has fun doing it. ... I will do all I can to help."

That's what counts in the end!

Now, let's figure out how to drop a Z4 block in this thing and put some serious boost on it. With a nice six speed dual clutch computer controlled tranny, Audi style. <VBG>

[Clutch_Kick_Lou]

Want to get it running? buy everything to get back to a stock 16v, new harnesses, BAM! Running car.

Learn the chassis, acquire the parts you want while getting used to the car and once you're ready for more power, install them

[rumsawatti]

http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/3838317467.html

BAM! Possible solution to your problems! If you have the $$$ though

PS: why so many useless long messages that noone will read? The OP probably doesnt even view this thread anymore lol

[richkid79]

Wow, this is awesome! And I still do read this thread, just got busy over the past few weeks. The more I look at a 25yr old 4age/aze, the less I want it/want to screw with it. Also, I don't what condition the trans is in. I hate the "old car smell" that these Toyotas have (my 84 Mitsubishi Cordia Turbo smelled similar too-also the reason I never bought a mk3 supra) Either which way, Im not going to spend too much $ on this. It will never be in a show and prob not more than a couple times at the track. I'm starting to sway towards a ca18det. I can get the full swap for around $1100 with at least a running engine and unhacked engine harness. I just found out about this Nissan swap for an 86 a couple days ago. What are your thoughts? And please don't reply to say how I'm dumb my ideas are...tell me why and what you would do