NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Toyo4ag
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NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:53 pm

Hey guys,

Just made my account 5 minutes ago hoping to get some input on my build I've got planned up.
Its fairly ambitious and going to be a costly s.o.b. but I'm into the car so that's that.

Car its self is an 88 AE92
Here's the plan in detail.

Head - Big Port 16v(yeah I know)...

Needs Valve Covers
Tomei poncams 264 In/ex
HKS/Toda valve springs
Stock Valves
probably supertec Valve guides and seals(off ebay) looking for other options
Silvertop ITBs with the adapter plate
All head work is being done by a locally know 4age guru
Adjustable Cam gears
Thin metal head gasket size based off how much head is taken off

Block- 7 rib no squirts. No history known. Looks new.

Stock 42mm crank looking into hardening techniques and balancing
High comp pistons(liking the 11.1 options...)
Forged rods(still shopping)
stock oil pump
stock water pump
performance belts
lightweight pulleys
need oil pan(lol)
ACL race bearings all around
ARP studs and fasteners all around
Headers and full exhaust no emissions.
possibly lightweight flywheel and good clutch but by this point I'm already broke.

On rebuild T50 trans

Ecu probably megasquirt or adaptronix
New revlimit will be somewhere in the ballpark of 9k
Would like to add knock sensor
All new gaskets obviously
Would be totally cool with 160 at the wheels, as i know what my whopping 90whp feels like.
Maybe I'll get more, maybe less its all in good fun.
Tell me what you think. Thanks!

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:09 pm

Toyo4ag wrote:Hey guys,

Just made my account 5 minutes ago hoping to get some input on my build I've got planned up.
Its fairly ambitious and going to be a costly s.o.b. but I'm into the car so that's that.

Car its self is an 88 AE92
Here's the plan in detail.

Head - Big Port 16v(yeah I know)...

Needs Valve Covers
Tomei poncams 264 In/ex
HKS/Toda valve springs
Stock Valves
probably supertec Valve guides and seals(off ebay) looking for other options
Silvertop ITBs with the adapter plate
All head work is being done by a locally know 4age guru
Adjustable Cam gears
Thin metal head gasket size based off how much head is taken off

Block- 7 rib no squirts. No history known. Looks new.

Stock 42mm crank looking into hardening techniques and balancing
High comp pistons(liking the 11.1 options...)
Forged rods(still shopping)
stock oil pump
stock water pump
performance belts
lightweight pulleys
need oil pan(lol)
ACL race bearings all around
ARP studs and fasteners all around
Headers and full exhaust no emissions.
possibly lightweight flywheel and good clutch but by this point I'm already broke.

On rebuild T50 trans

Ecu probably megasquirt or adaptronix
New revlimit will be somewhere in the ballpark of 9k
Would like to add knock sensor
All new gaskets obviously
Would be totally cool with 160 at the wheels, as i know what my whopping 90whp feels like.
Maybe I'll get more, maybe less its all in good fun.
Tell me what you think. Thanks!




don't waste your money on Supertech guides... or ANY guides... unless you need guides. Your "guru" should have told you that... Now as far as supertech stock valve replacements ;) ... OR you can spend the cash on getting the stock valves back cut... Your "guru" should have told you that...

Please make a build thread... I'd like to see the headwork of your guru :lol:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Toyo4ag
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:56 pm

Will defiantly be updating as I go. Still waiting to get the head back, it looks nice though i got a peek at it a few days ago. The valve guides have a little bit of play side to side and apparently it could making the valve seat cut hard to do accurately. that would be the only reason to replace. About the back cut were on the fence. it may just be one of those eh go for it moments as he has never heard of a massive gain to had here.
Thanks for the interest!

Jimmee1990
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Jimmee1990 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:36 am

If he's never heard of back cutting valves he can hardly be a guru, I'm also very interested in seeing photos of the finished work. Your parts shopping list also looks quite good, thought about brakes and suspension yet? I'm looking into picking up an imported AE92 GT-Apex here is AUS.

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Toyo4ag
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:09 pm

Ok just to straighten things out.
It wasn't that he has never heard of/or done the valve back cutting. We were just trying to determine how necessary this would be to the particular build. In a perfect world we'd do everything, I'm interested in user accounts of the valve cutback and maybe some pictures.
I have lots of faith in this guy as he has his very nicely built 4age sitting on a stand next to mine. And most of the port work is being done nearly identical to the way he did it on his personal vehicle.
I'm still waiting for it to be completed so I can get the pictures put up online. Maybe I can take some of my car as is right now just for kicks. Its not a looker but even the way it sits runs great.

Breaks and suspension has be neglected. Not having a lot of luck finding any. Open to options PLEASE HELP.

Tires are Toyo Eclipse A/S They're good I like them.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:26 am

Not sure how far you are into this but if you stay under 9500 the stock crank and rods should be fine.
If you really want something stronger The price on the Crower Sportsman rods is quite reasonable.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/crower-sportsman-rods
If you really want to you could add crank cab ladders. They shouldn't be nescecary but would add a little strength to the main caps and block strength.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/tomei- ... oyota-4age

It sounds like you may have ordered many of your parts but I can get everything on your list and can usually meet any price you find. If you make a big order it's likely I can beat any price you will find shopping around.
The poncams have a great reputation and all my customers who have talked to me after installing them have been extremely happy with them.
For your goals though I think you are going to want bigger cams and more compression. I think you will have a very hard time getting close to 160 hp at the wheels on 264s and 11:1.

I can get procams, Toda cams, Kelford cams, and a few other options that offer more aggressive grinds that can easily get you to your goal. Due to my good experiences with the poncams I would tend to lean towards the procams first.
There are a number of piston options. We talk about it a little in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9354
It will be about 10 weeks till the Supertech pistons are available for 20mm pins. I could also design you a piston specifically for your build.
If you are serious about 160 WHP I would be looking for 12:1 to 13:1 and a 280ish cam.

Toyo4ag
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:41 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Not sure how far you are into this but if you stay under 9500 the stock crank and rods should be fine.
If you really want something stronger The price on the Crower Sportsman rods is quite reasonable.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/crower-sportsman-rods
If you really want to you could add crank cab ladders. They shouldn't be nescecary but would add a little strength to the main caps and block strength.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/tomei- ... oyota-4age

It sounds like you may have ordered many of your parts but I can get everything on your list and can usually meet any price you find. If you make a big order it's likely I can beat any price you will find shopping around.
The poncams have a great reputation and all my customers who have talked to me after installing them have been extremely happy with them.
For your goals though I think you are going to want bigger cams and more compression. I think you will have a very hard time getting close to 160 hp at the wheels on 264s and 11:1.

I can get procams, Toda cams, Kelford cams, and a few other options that offer more aggressive grinds that can easily get you to your goal. Due to my good experiences with the poncams I would tend to lean towards the procams first.
There are a number of piston options. We talk about it a little in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9354
It will be about 10 weeks till the Supertech pistons are available for 20mm pins. I could also design you a piston specifically for your build.
If you are serious about 160 WHP I would be looking for 12:1 to 13:1 and a 280ish cam.


Hey,
Thanks for the awesome input this is exactly the reason I made the thread. I'd defiantly be all for going through you on any parts you can get. It sounds that you are speaking from much more experience than I have.

Here are some more details that I feel are relevant to the build.
-This car will be more or less daily driven
-I gotta stay on premium pump fuel.
-I'm an enthusiast and don't mind driving a car with the loss of low end.
-I know very little about the shim under conversion. It seems to be very costly for what you get out of it. Though all I've found is the TRD kit, go figure.
-The horsepower number I put out was very much just a round about number, and I am much more interested in just having a fast little 4a, that retains power say 4500-9500
-I have heard the stock rods are quite strong, especially with a little extra attention given to them. But with the BC rods you posted in the link. I may just decide to upgrade for peace of mind alone.
-This whole idea is to make a 4a that can be driven hard and not have to worry that I'm pushing it too hard. Basically I'd like to build it for driving conditions that are harder than what I will give it most of the time.
Thanks again for all the input guys. I'm picking up a lot of great info.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:36 am

With the poncams you could probably get in the realm of 140 wheel. It doesn't sound like a whole lot but a notable improvement over the what like 90 hp a stock 4A puts to the wheels.
With the right port work and tuning you might be able to get a little more.
With that said I doubt the practical powerband of the poncams would get you over 8k. You could spin it faster but you will likely start loosing power above that.
Something like a 270-280 would probably get you more power usable to 9k. If you get up to the point of needing shim under bucket then yeah you need to decide if you are willing to pay to take it to that level. As you can see from Kelfords site you can run quite a bit of cam on stock buckets though.
http://www.camshaftshop.com/products.php?categoryid=101
The 193b is notably bigger than the poncam but a little less agressive than the smallest procam. This might be a good option for your goals. You can see they get a good bit bigger from there. Their cams that require shim under bucket are the ones that get into the seriously high lift.
The procam or the 193C would give you a little more top end.
As you increase the cams you can also increase the compression and if done right you shouldn't loose low end.
Here is a 4A built similar to a Formula Atlantic motor.
Image

Here is a stock 4A
Image
At 3000 RPM the stock MR2 makes 40 hp, the built motor makes about 45 hp.
At 6k RPM the stock 4A makes about 90 HP whereas the built motor makes about 110 and just keeps making more from there.
This is where keeping compression as high as possible really benefits your overall power curve.

Toyo4ag
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:27 am

Hey thanks for the info on cams. I'm going to look into the Kelford cams. I'm not real hard up on the 9k rev limit but it does sound appealing to really play into the 4a's strengths and rev it up. Totally spaced on the fact you can run cams with higher duration that doesn't necessarily have lift that would require shim-unders. I'd been just assuming the Pon/Procams was the best I could do. I'm starting to realize there is much more research that is needed before I should purchase.
Thanks again everyone!

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:05 pm

145whp(170 @ the crank?), relatively flat torque..... all well under 8000rpm :o

Image

On almost all stock parts... :mrgreen: the engine has Web Camshafts(similar to 264 type), TRD valve springs, and light weight wrist pins, the rest of the engine and its internals are all OEM parts... the head is extensively ported. 8-)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Toyo4ag
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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:20 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:145whp(170 @ the crank?), relatively flat torque..... all well under 8000rpm :o

Image

On almost all stock parts... :mrgreen: the engine has Web Camshafts(similar to 264 type), TRD valve springs, and light weight wrist pins, the rest of the engine and its internals are all OEM parts... the head is extensively ported. 8-)


These numbers seem very good for the parts that are in it. I find that Toyota makes very good parts for these cars oem. Upgrading is more for peace of mind and excessive rev limit bashing.

Club4ag for the win! You guys are great.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:06 am

BUMPPPP!

Did some more research and I'm starting to feel like the 264 poncams that Tomei makes are a bit too mild. I have nothing to go off other than the stats and generalized ideas about needed lift and cam duration. I'm looking more into the Kelford 193-B and C. Since the plan is to raise the compression to at least 11 and the head is going to be fairly ported out. Along with the block going .5mm over to accommodate the new pistons. I talked to kelford and they say with their ramp design, flicking a shim isn't an issue.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:39 pm

If you are going bigger than the 264s and aftermarket engine management with tunable spark I would go higher than 11:1. Depending on cams probably at least 12:1.
I would love to design you a set of pistons if you are interested.
mr2tailbreaker just broke 146 HP on his poncams and 11:1 on the stock ECU with a little tuning so I think for a reasonable amount of time and money your goals are quite plausible.
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=468649&page=34
He thinks he is getting a little detonation in the 3500-4500 RPM range but with the stock ECU and having deleted the EGR that may account for some of it. Either way with aftermarket engine management you can tune the timing to avoid any hot spot while advancing where it will take it. Ideally you want to run as much compression as you can tune for on your fuel while giving yourself a little safety margin.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:41 am

Hey thanks for the reply. I'd really like to know what the pricing would be for your custom work. Since I'll be doing a substantial amount of work and planning on running big cams with a programmable ecu. It is very possible I could run higher than 11.1, that being said I've never build a 4age like this before. And I'm mainly just worried about the pre-detonation issues that come along with higher compression. I'm trying to get more user accounts for doing similar work. I'm still a little iffy on my CR calculations. but any idea round about where I'd end up with this example.

**EXAMPLE ONLY** ( Not looking for an exact number or going to hold anyone to what they say, just kinda in the ball park of...)
CP makes pistons that are a 12.0 @ 81.5mm (.5mm over)
Head is reasonably flat but will be skimmed a bit to ensure good gasket sealing.
Something like a 1mm metal head gasket.
block is also skimmed just enough to be flat not a substantial amount.
stock stroke
and big cams( around 272-288 with 8.1-9.0mm lift). I'm assuming these will bleed out some of my compression.
The purpose of this is, what is the likelihood of being able to run this on premium fuel. Even with a standalone ecu, I know there are some limitations.
The last thing I want to do is build this engine up and blow it to pieces with knock while tuning.
Thanks for the interest, I'm still waiting to get the head back from the machine shop. Once I do I'll be posting some pics of the work done as well as the bare bones block.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 am

I get a pretty good deal through Wiseco so I should be able to match the price of their shelf pistons with a set of customs. That is not getting paid for the design but it's worth it for me to get another build out there with components that I designed. Plus I love going the design and CAD part.

The advantage of this is we can design the piston specifically around your cams, your valve diameter and your goals to minimize hot spots, or thin and weak spots while maximizing performance and compression.

I would need to get info on CPs actual piston specs as far as compression height and dome before answering your question since different manufacturers use all different specs for deck height and combustion chamber volume. This means the actual compression ratio may be significantly different than they claim.

For a build like this I would highly suggest getting a knock monitor or detcan. Unless of course your ECU has a trustably capable knock detection and correction system.

Bigger cams don't change static compression ratio which is what we are talking about here. Cams do change what people refer to as dynamic compression ratio but that is a bogus concept that poorly tries to explain something more complex than the concept trying to explain it.

What is important is the fact that bigger cams leave the valves open longer.
When the motor is at low RPM and things are moving slow enough the cyl can suck in a full chamber of air and then the piston will push some air back out either the intake or exhaust before the valves close. Now the cyl has less air in it than it would have if the valves closed sooner.
Now as the RPM increase everything takes longer to happen in relation to the cycle of the engine. The piston slams to the bottom of the cylinder faster than the air waive can follow creating a super low pressure zone in the cylinder. Now the piston starts traveling back up the cylinder but air is still trying to fill that low pressure zone. The valve staying open longer allows this shock wave of air to rush in well after the piston has started it's upward travel. In an ideal world that valve would close right as the pressure stabilizes and before any air is pushed back out.
Since as RPMs increase and everything starts happening faster detonation becomes less likely as RPMs increase. This means there is less time for combustion to happen too soon or for too much combustion to happen too fast while the piston is near TDC. By running bigger cams you are filling the cylinder less at lower RPMs where detonation is more likely and filling the cylinder more in the higher RPMs where it's less likely. This allows you to run more timing and compression before you get detonation.
You are right about there being a limit to how much compression you can run and there are those who know more than me about the subject. It's only been in about the last couple years that I have started really studying high compression builds and the relationships of compression and cams and things. I do think that 12:1 would be safe and not too extreme for the cams you are looking at running. With engine management I don't think you will have any problem tuning it.

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Re: NEW 4age 16v Build advice SPEAK YOUR MIND!

Postby Toyo4ag » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:59 am

Hey dude thanks for all the great advice. I'm fairly new getting into this but have a decent amount of mechanical aptitude to back up this build. Plus I have a mechanic on the side that I have a lot of trust in. Obviously since I'm going to be investing a lot of money with this build. I want to push it just about as hard as I can. I'd love to have the 12.1 compression if its doable as I want to keep the engine running as efficiently as possible, while getting some good healthy power out of it. With a 4age build I really don't think you can do any wrong. Anything from the stock motor will surly be an upgrade and the one its got in now if fun as it is. Something about these guys just puts a smile on my face like no other rig I've driven. (Even lacking the face melting power) They just seem to beg you to push it to the limiter. I'm looking for as much help as I can get on this build and the thought of getting some pistons custom made for the build is very exciting to me. If I can keep progress going in the direction that I'm planning, this will be a very unique build. And your name will be all over it. Can't wait to start making some positive headway.
Thanks again.

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