The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

overspool
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:02 am

To put it kindly, ecomodder is an interesting website. Cool to look at and interesting to see what people have done, but I haven't been impressed with very many builds on there.

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overspool
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:04 am

Don't get me wrong, aerodynamics are important. But, the drag coefficient of the ae86 is decent enough to get good fuel economy, and I am doing a few things like a 1 piece under tray.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:07 am

I guess what I meant initially is that changing the current aerodynamics doesn't play as much of a role.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:35 pm

Image


Image
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overspool
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:14 am

What exactly am I looking at oldeskewltoy? It's a third member, but the diff looks weird. Electric assist of some sort?

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:35 am

winters quick change

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:51 am

overspool wrote:What exactly am I looking at oldeskewltoy? It's a third member, but the diff looks weird. Electric assist of some sort?


it is a quick change rear differential... it typically allows both a high, and low gear solution into a final drive. For example, you drive to a track, the final drive ratio is 3.35, once at the track you remove the rear cover, swap the gears from top to bottom, and now you are running 4.5 final.....


taking a quick view..... I'd likely begin with a 3.78, and use gear set 4 giving me a 3.2 final drive for the highway and fuel economy, and then a 4.47 for play

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby muythaibxr » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:41 pm

Out of curiosity, do PowerFC or AEM actually support continuously variable valve timing?

Also, does that 3S have continuously variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust?

I'm involved with writing the firmware for MS3 and we support up to 4 cams with continuously variable valve timing, but I have no idea what the other standalone ECUs support.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:24 pm

muythaibxr wrote:Out of curiosity, do PowerFC or AEM actually support continuously variable valve timing?

Also, does that 3S have continuously variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust?

I'm involved with writing the firmware for MS3 and we support up to 4 cams with continuously variable valve timing, but I have no idea what the other standalone ECUs support.


yes, beams is dual VVTI (intake and exhaust)

I had a powerFC briefly for mine but never used it, so cant speak for that. But most people running AEM v2 (myself included) are using a honda 6050 box and yes, it has full vvti support.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby Grant » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:17 am

riddleyo wrote:I'm pretty confident you could get a BEAMs powered AE86 to 50mpg but the visual aesthetics would make us all puke. I'm looking forward to seeing your results though.

Yea those hypermilers always have the ugliest cars. The results don't lie though: http://ecomodder.com/blog/20-yearold-mo ... onomy-run/
:lol:

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby shandangles » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:29 am

Surely running such a low diff ratio (3.2:1) on a 3s with relatively low torque would adversely effect fuel economy as the engine would be constantly "loaded" up???

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:18 pm

Woah. I had never thought of a quick change diff. Now the question is, how much is it going to cost to put a winters quick change in my 86? That is perfect. It takes all of the math and speculation out of the equation, and gives me something to have data to back up my math and speculation lol. Gotta start saving my pennies... Lol.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:03 pm

i think the cheapest/smallest one they have is about $1000-$1500 give or take. Most are in the $2000-$4000 range. Then you have to figure in you'll need all custom brackets, brakes, driveshaft, etc. Plus someones labor for fabrication time if you cant build a jig and do all the welding yourself.

EI: not worth it.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:56 pm

I was going to use a Ford 8" and modify it, this is a much better option. I'm curious if it'll take the beating from drifting.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:02 pm

well, most formula D cars are using them... soo..

overspool
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:10 pm

The more you know... Lol. That answers that.

The only FD cars I have seen the rear end setups on is Taka's 86 (Celica supra rear end) and Brandon Wicknick's S13.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:50 pm

literally every competitive car in FD is running a winters quick change.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby riddleyo » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:46 am

shandangles wrote:Surely running such a low diff ratio (3.2:1) on a 3s with relatively low torque would adversely effect fuel economy as the engine would be constantly "loaded" up???


Load is good for fuel economy - as long as you don't cross into open loop. This is why hypermilers use a technique called "pulse and glide" as opposed to using cruise control. You load up the engine by accelerating to 65 or so, then cruise in neutral to 50 or so, and then load the engine again. I have gotten great results, over 40mpg in a celica gts 2zz using pulse and glide.

Grant wrote:Yea those hypermilers always have the ugliest cars. The results don't lie though: http://ecomodder.com/blog/20-yearold-mo ... onomy-run/ :lol:

It is amazing that we had a 50mpg car in stock form in 1989. Here we are, over 20 years later :)

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby assassin10000 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:38 am

You could also go 5 speed like I did. W58 has a much taller 5th.

Andrew

overspool
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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:02 pm

I like the idea of having 6 gears.

Also, I've been looking into different rear ends again.

I've gotten all settled in at the new job and new house in Detroit, I forget how many things have to be purchased when moving.

I've been comparing between a modified 8.8 rear end, and a volvo 240 rear end. The Volvo 240 rear end is a 27 spline Dana 30, with HUNDREDS of options like the Ford 8.8, and it might be cheaper. The Volvo 240 rear end is only about 1/2" wider than the stock 86 rear end. With an 8.8, I'd have to narrowed and get custom axles. It's a lot stronger than the Volvo, but I may be able to retain 13" wheels with the Volvo, and definitely 14". That is a HUGE plus in my book, because I have 13" Volk Meshies, 14" SSR Longchamps and 14" Advan A3As. If I can save money by not having to buy new wheels, I'll take what I can get. I suspect the Volvo rear end will be strong enough for awhile, and worst case scenario I pull spare diffs from every jeep front axle at the junkyard.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:09 pm

I'm so confused at this thread. One minute its supposed to be a hypermiler, the next it's a drift car.

What are you trying to do here? the J160 has short gears, the 6th gear is even shorter than 5th gear in a T50. The only way you're going to get 50mpg (which you're not) is by running a really tall final drive, which will hurt you when it comes to trying to go drifting.

My beams with j160, 4.3 and a pretty lean highway cruising afr (15ish) still only gets about 20mpg at 60mph.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:44 pm

LongGrain wrote:I'm so confused at this thread. One minute its supposed to be a hypermiler, the next it's a drift car.

What are you trying to do here? the J160 has short gears, the 6th gear is even shorter than 5th gear in a T50. The only way you're going to get 50mpg (which you're not) is by running a really tall final drive, which will hurt you when it comes to trying to go drifting.


Ahhh... but the S15 6th gear fits the J160 box ;) - the S15 6th is .737 if memory serves.....

LongGrain wrote:My beams with j160, 4.3 and a pretty lean highway cruising afr (15ish) still only gets about 20mpg at 60mph.


Really? I just clocked 31.7mpg @ nearly 70mph with my 4AGE, LEEN, and 3.90. I'm pretty sure 60 would be a bit closer to 35mpg (less wind drag)


btw... there are 2 Portland AE86 owners who manage to get over 40 mpg with their 4AGE/T50 using minimal hyper-miling techniques - http://hachiroku.net/forums/showpost.ph ... tcount=631
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby herro » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:16 am

Not sure how 50mpg is possible.
I would assume 35mpg to 40mpg with a tall tall final drive.

Currenty in my ap1 motor ap2 tranny with 3.73 2300lbs
ap2 ecu with ap2 injectors running 30 to 35mpg consistently with the odd vtec here the there 70hwy 30 city. However my 4age/ t50 stock does around 35mpg consistently.

I think that if you want power your going to need to sacrifice fuel consumption or vice versa.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby LongGrain » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:52 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
LongGrain wrote:I'm so confused at this thread. One minute its supposed to be a hypermiler, the next it's a drift car.

What are you trying to do here? the J160 has short gears, the 6th gear is even shorter than 5th gear in a T50. The only way you're going to get 50mpg (which you're not) is by running a really tall final drive, which will hurt you when it comes to trying to go drifting.


Ahhh... but the S15 6th gear fits the J160 box ;) - the S15 6th is .737 if memory serves.....

LongGrain wrote:My beams with j160, 4.3 and a pretty lean highway cruising afr (15ish) still only gets about 20mpg at 60mph.


Really? I just clocked 31.7mpg @ nearly 70mph with my 4AGE, LEEN, and 3.90. I'm pretty sure 60 would be a bit closer to 35mpg (less wind drag)


btw... there are 2 Portland AE86 owners who manage to get over 40 mpg with their 4AGE/T50 using minimal hyper-miling techniques - http://hachiroku.net/forums/showpost.ph ... tcount=631


I dont have a 4ag.

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Re: The 50MPG Beams AE86 Build

Postby overspool » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:09 pm

LongGrain- Multiple use vehicle. Multiple diffs, different final drives, and different maps. Drift car with 200hp, capable of getting 50MPG. It is definitely possible. I've gotten close to 40MPG out of worse vehicle setups.

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