Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

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ae86714
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Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:38 pm

So I just picked up a set of swift (8/6k) springs. I was told that the front springs have half (.5) coils cut out. Seller said it was about a 3inch drop all around and he was running tokico blues with no problem. On the T3 website for their HTS full stroke says its for cars with 2.5 inch drop or less. I know about 3 inches could in reality be closer to 2.5, but just wanted to know what you guys think about max drop before needing to go short stroke.

I would also like to run tokico blues as they seem to be the most decent affordable shocks for the 86, just gonna be a daily driver with the occasional spirited drive. what other setups are you folks running with the swifts?

thanks all

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:13 am

IMO a 1.75-2" drop is when one should start considering shorter shocks. Consider this: the trd rear race springs have a 2" drop at best (probably slightly under), and they are designed to be used with their short stroke shock - these are parts specifically designed for the ae86 in competition use by trd. (Fwiw the swift rear springs provide a roughly .25-.375 lower ride height than even the trd springs.)

What you need to consider is how much the shocks will be compressed at ride height. Generally speaking you only want them compressed roughly 35% at normal ride height. If you lower the car 3 inches and still use the same length shock - with everything else the same - that means the shock could potentially be compressed 3 more inches at ride height than it would be using a stock length spring - this means 3" less bump travel. The shocks might bottom out, and they'll most certainly be out of their effective stroke range. On top of all this the tokico blue shocks are designed as stock replacements. Yes, they handle mild to moderate spring rates, but probably not 8/6k.

Long story short: it will probably work, but the performance and ride will likely be terrible. Also, the life of the shocks will probably be shortened considerably.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:49 am

Ya I thought that it could be pushing it.

I was looking through some of the old site archives for any info, and i came across an old post with Haru's (AE86Kai) car in it.

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=54764

A few posts up from the bottom is his old coupe showing the ride height, stating that he is running swift springs with tockico hp. sorry not trying to play he said she said, but my main resource for this kind of info is searching old posts. Guess I should just PM Haru and get his opinion too.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:49 am

The above link is discussing what springs to use with tokico hp. There's a bunch of people talking about using appropriately matched springs (oem, megan, espelir, eibach pro, tanabe), and one guy said he used swifts indicating, "no problem at all......." (best to contact him because who knows what he means by that). Keep in mind that your car will be .5" lower than his in the front since your springs are cut, and roughly .15" lower in the back since your springs are softer.

If you just want something that will get the car low, stiff and drivable you're good. I did say it should work.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:42 pm

Ya I mainly plan to just daily it, but I will definitely be doing spirited driving as well. And I intend to put a lot of miles on the car as well, I hope to do a road trip in it in about a year (Togue Tour of California! 8-) ). so i really want something that I can get a lot of miles out of, while retaining a reasonable amount of a sporty ride. Tokico HP is good financially at about 300 or so for a full set, anything comparable in price that might work for me (short or full stroke)?

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:39 am

What type of setup do you have currently and what don't you like about it? I ask because you will probably regret going with such high spring rates considering your intended use.

To be honest some megan or espelir long stroke springs are a great match for the hp's, provide a sporty ride, and still retain a reasonable amount of comfort for the street. However, they don't lower the car much, there's too much grip for the drifters, and they're not ideal on a race track.

My car is used on the street and is currently my daily. I used to have the megans with tokico hp and really liked it - GREAT street setup. Back in June I switched to trd short stroke shocks with coilover conversion in front and 8/6k rates. It was setup in a way to get the best ride possible out of the high spring rates (shortened front strut case w/ spacer underneath insert and no spring preload). The shocks can even be adjusted to help with the ride quality.

Long story short it's terrible for a street car: too stiff, too bouncy, and too low. I have to clutch in neutral and creep over residential speed bumps and drainage dips. I can feel the chassis flex when slowly pulling up a curb at the end of a driveway, and when driving over steep angled parking lot entrances. Good roads are somewhat tolerable sans the random bumps/dips/cracks; however, bad roads - like in the inner city - are unbearable. I've drove in downtown Phoenix a few times and I couldn't go over 40 mph even if I wanted to because it felt like the car would rattle itself apart or tires will loose contact with the road. Driving spiritedly in a corner can be problematic if the road surface isn't smooth. If there's consecutive dips/bumps/undulations/etc. the chassis bounces too much and the handling feel isn't confidence inspiring.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:50 pm

Dam, just reading around led me to believe 8/6 set up would be more tolerable as a daily than you described. Must be all the drift kids' opinions. Well, maybe I'll just give it a try first, shouldn't be too hard to get some money back later if I end up not liking it. Also from what I've read, going with TRD/HTS instead of AGX helps increase civility. And it would make sense, since they are about double the cost. Looks like I got some thinking to do.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:55 pm

That's a good plan because you never know until you try. What seems good on paper isn't always the case in the real world.

There's always people looking for those springs so you won't have a problem selling if you don't like them.

The short stroke trd race shocks and hts are popular because they're a good match for the car (trd rears and hts are valved specific for ae86) and high spring rates. They also perform great at the limit and beyond. On top of this they lower the car a good amount and still provide ample stroke. These shocks are made for racing though so the valving is aggressive.

A lot of the hardcore track guys all say the koni and bilstein stuff is best, and actually provides a better balance of performance and comfort since the tech. is better than the tokico and kyb shocks.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:52 am

I just bought the car and it came with JIC coilovers up front that are rock hard and probably in need of a rebuild, and the rear has yellow dot (4.7kg..?)TRD with some blown silver colored kyb. So ya the ride is not very pleasant at the moment lol. I'll likely just get some used agx for the rear and use the new swift with them, leave the coilovers up front. Then save up for trd or something nice like that and eventually go back to springs and shocks up front.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:42 am

Give me a shout if you decide to get rid of those trd rear springs.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:02 pm

Shout!

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby asnfro » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:09 am

Are you shouting to get rid of those rear springs? If deuce doesnt want them i'll take them.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby idreamofdrifting » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:56 am

I rock 8k/6k Swift Springs with the tried and tested kyb agx ss shocks.
Not for daily, unless you want your heart poppin out of your chest every time you run over a pot hole.
Also, if you have a bad lower back then forget it.
Unless of course it's track use only, or you live in a place where the roads are nearly perfect.
Not the best set up, but it does the job for me.
Image

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:59 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:Long story short it's terrible for a street car: too stiff, too bouncy, and too low.
I have to clutch in neutral and creep over residential speed bumps and drainage
dips. I can feel the chassis flex when slowly pulling up a curb at the end of a
driveway, and when driving over steep angled parking lot entrances.

Good roads are somewhat tolerable sans the random bumps/dips/cracks;
however, bad roads - like in the inner city - are unbearable. I've drove in
downtown Phoenix a few times and I couldn't go over 40 mph even if I wanted
to because it felt like the car would rattle itself apart or tires will lose contact
with the road.

Driving spiritedly in a corner can be problematic if the road surface isn't smooth.
If there's consecutive dips/bumps/undulations/etc. the chassis bounces too
much and the handling feel isn't confidence inspiring.


Major props to Deuce Cam for speaking the truth loud and clear. I'm going
to put this thread in the TECH FAQ in the hope that it might prevent more
people from making the 8/6kg mistake on their daily drivers.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:14 pm

yes, this was very helpful to me. Definitely looking through the archives, one would get the impression that the 8/6 combo is pretty tolerable for daily use. Hard to decide though, I could see why some might think you'd need something that aggressive to help compensate for the lack of power. My previous corolla (sr5) was a daily with tanabe gf210 and tockico blues, with front and rear tanabe sway bars and full prothane bushing kit. it was perfect for daily for sure, but the limit was pretty clear as well. even just messing around in a open lot, i felt like the suspension left much to be desired. So this time around I thought i'd go more aggressive, but perhaps too aggressive. I think the obvious choice is to set my car up for daily with long stroke suspension, and build a short stroke setup on the side to switch out for track days. :)

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Drifting is the main reason why those rates are popular since it makes breaking traction a lot easier. Plus one can drop the ride height 2"+ and not bottom out the shocks or tires as long as few simple supporting mods are carried out. Also, the high rates can be beneficial for grip when trying to get the most of out high performance and racing tires. The final thing is the fact that virtually all off the shelf coilover kits come with the 8/6k combo. People see that and automatically assume it's the way to go. Many don't realize that most of them are just a cookie cutter shock/spring combo that was adapted to also work on an ae86.

My old setup was pretty close to yours: 4.5/4k megan springs and tokico hp. To be honest I felt even that was a tad firm for a daily, but I didn't have to slow to a crawl for parking lot entrances and I could still cruise slowly in 2nd gear over residential speed bumps because the spring rates were 30-45% lower. Plus the progressive rate further helps the ride - when extra extension occurs on some of the larger dips - and the initial spring rate comes into play. It lacked with drifting, but still felt great around corners in town and on mountain roads, all while not feeling out of control if the road isn't perfect.

Fwiw, I tried 6.8k front springs with 5.5k rear springs briefly before the 8/6k combo, and there wasn't a noticeable improvement in ride quality. I still had to clutch in and creep over everything due to the harshness.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:40 am

So megan springs are firmer than tanabe from what i see. the tanabe advertise being 2.5/ 2.7 F/R, which is opposite of what im used to seeing, with the stiffer rate in the rear. Maybe i'll have to give megan a try this time around... or flip flop my decision a bunch more times first.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:17 pm

The oem rates are softer in the front compared to the rear which may be why they did that.

I'm currently after a set of used espelir ASD springs which are 3.0f/2.8r - they also have a GT version that are 4.0f/3.1r, but these seem to be harder to find (maybe discontinued?) and more expensive.

The great thing about the megans is they can easily be had for around $150 new. I thought they were a touch the firm side just driving along (although very tolerable imo) which is why I want to try the espelir springs this time. However, I was using tokico hp shocks that I suspect have too much compression damping which would add to the harshness over bumps (and lacking performance at the very limit). Also, I was using camber plates, a full prothane poly bushing kit, and a panhard bar with heim joints which all contributed to the stiff ride.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:08 pm

I want to listen so badly to the great advice here, but the kid in me is telling me to see if the stove is really hot. lol kind of like sex, people can tell you and explain all the first hand experiences they had and why you shouldnt try the same, but the only way you'll ever KNOW is to get some action! lol I think i am just longing for a killer handling rolla since my last one was so mild. do i soften up or just drive a lot less...? tough life decisions!

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Who can blame you. I did exactly the same. You never know until you try.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby jondee86 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:48 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:I'm currently after a set of used espelir ASD springs which are 3.0f/2.8r - they
also have a GT version that are 4.0f/3.1r, but these seem to be harder to find
(maybe discontinued?) and more expensive.

Interesting :) I am using the Espelir ASD springs with AGX insert and shocks
(SW20 + Camaro combo) set full soft, and TRD rubber bushings everywhere.
Gives a comfortable ride (very close to stock) and grips well. Handles bumps
in corners and you have to really provoke the car to go sideways. I wanted to
try the 4kg Espelirs but even 5 years ago they could not be bought anywhere.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby burdickjp » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:12 pm

If the springs were cut they are no longer the advertised rate.
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:56 pm

That sounds very interesting. I don't know much about the dimensions on the camaro shocks, but I had a set of front sw20 agx units on the bench for a while and the piston shaft was only a little over 25 mm shorter than stock, iirc. I guess I shouldn't be surprised they work good with long stroke drop springs. Are your struts stock or shortened?

I plan on switching to the trd front/rear control arms bushings and stock strut top bushings since the trd units are discontinued. For the shocks I plan on using direct ae86 replacement units, either kyb excel g/gr2 or maybe a set of konis if the right deal comes around.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby jondee86 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:46 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:Are your struts stock or shortened?

My struts are cut 40mm above the spring perch and I have 20mm spacers
under the inserts. The stroke of the SW20 front AGX is only about 20mm less
than OEM, but the cartridge is around 70mm shorter. So depending on what
you do to the OEM gland nut, a 40mm cut and 20mm spacer is the go, or you
could use a 60mm spacer under and no cut, as TRD did with one of their RACE
short stroke inserts.

The AGX Camaro rears are about 40mm shorter than OEM when fully extended
with about 20mm less stroke. Straight bolt on with no mods. There is no doubt
the AGX could handle stiffer springs. I have run them on full soft over my local
"test circuit" which has some wicked bumps and dips, and they work nearly as
well as the Koni's I had in my last car. They will bottom out on a really big hit,
but that is down to the softer springs.

If I decide to get back to tracking my car, I shall most likely look at getting
coilovers. There is a company in Australia selling coilovers with spindles that
have been designed, road tuned and custom valved specifically for the AE86.
They use 6/4kg spring rates... :mrgreen:

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:28 pm

40 mm above the stock perch is a slick mod indeed. I suspect a good fabricator :mrgreen:. I imagine there's more spring pre-load with the shorter shocks since the perches are oem fixed. Do you suspect the shocks or tires are bottoming out on a big hit?

I'm keen on the shock works setup. Custom valving, inverted fronts, height adjustable shocks: what's not to like haha. I also really respect that they've decided to do a 1 piece lower spindle section for safety. Most of the after market coilover makers don't even bother to cup weld their spindles like the oem.

To be honest the setup I have right now is pretty darn good for performance, and decent for 8/6k rates on the road (I actually thought it would be worse haha). It is tolerable on the street; 10 years ago I would have just lived with it (done it before), but I guess I'm becoming an old fart. I can see why this particular setup popular. Fwiw I have 'short stroke' trd race shocks (ar92 front/ae86 rear), coilover conversion in front with 8k springs, 40 mm shortened case, and a 21 mm spacer under insert. Swift 6k springs in the rear. Performance aside it looks VERY good. It's going to be a little tough going back to monster truck status haha.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:54 pm

This here is a picture of the OEM front spring compared to the Espelir
front spring and some cosmetic lowering spring. There is some preload
because of the shorter stroke on the shocks, but the spring is shorter
than OEM overall, and has a couple of closer wound coils to let is settle
lower. I looked at every lowering spring on the market before finding
the Espelir, and they work fine for what I need.

Image

As you know, if you want to go low you have to go stiff, as otherwise you
will run out of bump stroke. Cutting above the perch gives back 40mm
of bump. I'm still using the OEM rubber bumpstops with both donuts
intact. I could cut one donut off and get another 25mm of bump if I was
desperate. That's what I bottom on if I hit a big dip going too fast. On
my test track there is one place that can catch me out, but I have never
felt it hit the bumpstops anywhere else. I run 55 or 60-Series tires, so
that helps ride comfort as well.

Many people say that the TRD short strokes are the best that they have
found, and I suspect that this is because TRD had them valved to work
with their springs. Shock works have gone a few steps further than that,
which is why I would use them. Just struggling with laying down the coin
at the moment, when my car is only a fine day/weekend driver :)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:08 pm

You're correct about the spring preload. I don't know what I was thinking - forgot about the shorter free height and didn't even consider the dual rate compared to single rate under load.

This all makes me wonder if i'll be riding the bump stops with the espelirs. After all, you added 40 mm of bump travel over stock and still manage to bottom out (rarely). I can't say I recall ever bottoming out the shocks on the megans with tokico hp, but the spring rates are over 30% higher than the espelirs. Anyway, it should be interesting. I can always trim them if needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the shock works setup was the best off-the-shelf set on the market for ae86. Imo they certainly are on paper. The TRD setup is good, but there's no getting around the fact that the specs are probably at least 20 years old.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:20 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:This all makes me wonder if i'll be riding the bump stops with the espelirs.

The diagram below shows the numbers I came up with for the Espelir springs
after a lot of measuring and figuring. That was a few years ago and I can't really
remember how I got there, but I'm pretty sure I fitted the springs to the struts
and took measurements.

Image

Figuring on 250kg per corner and a 1G bump load on a 3kg/mm spring, the
suspension would compress around 83mm. Working with the available stroke
on the AGX insert( = theoretical stroke minus stroke lost to bumpstops and
inside gland nut), I then targeted approx 2/3rds bump and 1/3rd rebound.

Obviously 32mm was never going to be enough, so to use the Espelirs I had
no choice but cut the 40mm. The result is a little over 70mm of bump, which
means I will bounce off the bumpstops on a big hit. With the full OEM rubber
buffers this is not a problem... nothing like bottoming the shock or fully
compressing the spring... it's a thump rather than a clang :)

And to clarify, the one place that I know I have bounced off the bumpstops
is where a short section of roadway has dropped about 150mm. The in and
out ramps are steep, and if you enter the dip at speed, the car drops and the
suspension compresses. Then you hit the up ramp on the other side before
the suspension has had time to recover :shock:


Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:26 am

Great info, thanks for posting. I'm curious to see how much bump travel I have once everything gets installed and the car is back on the ground.

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Re: Swift springs(8/6k) damper choice

Postby ae86714 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:56 pm

taking the advice duece, selling off the 8/6kg swifts. Sounds like the espelirs are nice for daily.

jondee86 - so you are running AGX with the espelirs? is what you're saying above that with a little preload you are still in the useable stroke range of the AGX? I'm right in the middle of buying my setup right now, trying to find something on the comfy side of sporty...

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