TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper spray?

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Pidge526
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TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper spray?

Postby Pidge526 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:28 pm

Hey guys, sorry if this is a frequently asked question but did some searching just before posting this and not coming up with a deff. answer.

My engine is a stock 16v bluetop, I had the head milled, but not the block as I was notified by my machinist that he thought the block looked fine for a metal head gasket (starting to question his judgement.) Anyway, I cleaned both surfaces and lighty sanded the block deck with 220 with a sanding block to remove old gasket material and did notice some low spots in the block or small "pits." I did not use copper spray for the gasket and am now thinking I should have. For the record I am rebuilding this engine as it spun a rod bearing and was did not have a leaking or blown head gasket prior to the tear down.

So far I have the block torqued to 45 ft lbs in sequences of 25, 35, and 45. From what I'm seeing on different forums and threads is that some people say 22 ft lbs (or in that range) and than 2 separate 90* passes and some say torque to 53 ft lbs by working your way up from 25 ft/lbs -1st pass, 35 ft/lbs -2nd pass, and 53 ft/lbs. - final... so I'm kind stuck.

I now think I should take the head off and spray the bottom side of the gasket ( or at least the bottom if not the top as well) just in case while there is still nothing bolt to the head or engine in the car. The gasket is completely dry and just torqued it to 45ft lbs tonight, however I did reuse the old head bolts as I don't think they are torque to yield but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I stopped at 45 because I was not exactly sure what most people went by for a spec to follow and my old manual said 44 was the factory limit.

So the bottom line is:
- Would it be best to take the the head off to copper spray the bottom of the gasket in case of leaks (even though the head is already torqued to 45ft/lbs) as the block was NOT milled prior to assembly?
- Do I have to get new head bolts or are they reusable?
- What torque sequence to follow for 4age 16v Bluetop Bigport with head bolts and a TRD .8mm metal head gasket for stock application/compression?

Any suggestions, comments, or answers are greatly appreciated, thanks.
Last edited by Pidge526 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop?

Postby allencr » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:04 pm

Was the machinist's judgement before or after your prep? What does the surface that fire-ring seats on look like, clean & bright? What do the areas around the coolant passages look like, smooth and the gasket had a smear/bead of something around it on both sides?
Bolts are fine but should be checked lenghtwise per the factory, they are used so the threads & head may need looking after, smooth & un-galled.
Torque 45-50ftlbs is OK unless you think the wrench may be pessimistic, lube type on threads & head is more important then a specific number. Consistency is more important then a specific number.
Do what you want. I think removing for whatever usually turns out to be something stupid, fixing imaginary problems and then overlooking the obvious but unknown ones.
It's too late for the 22*90*90 - torque angle tightening method, the HG is crushed.
Pattern, inside to outside,in steps, either criss-cross or circular.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop?

Postby Pidge526 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:19 am

It was before the prep of the block when I was picking up the head after he milled it. He didn't even say anything about the copper spray, but to use a sanding block with 220ish grit to clean it off and give the new gasket something to "bite" into rather than being completely smooth.

Around the rings it looked pretty clean and shiny as it was not a low spot and wasn't to worried about that and from what I remember the coolant passages looked okay. Like I stated I DIDN'T use any copper spray on the head gasket when I installed it but that's where I am a little bit weary of a possible leak as at the back of the engine, between the smooth and clean spot around the firing ring or cylinder and the back edge of the block, it looked a little low and there were darker spots of black and look like pitting either from the old gasket possibly "biting" into the block.

I guess I thought that the TRD's were reusable as the engine obviously has not been ran and have trouble deciding if I should pull the head off to spray both sides of the gasket since I didn't get the block milled, just as a safety precaution.

I used a tap on all of the threads in the block and cleaned all of the threads of of all the bolts. Every single one went in perfectly fine except the front left bolt which would be the last one in the torque sequence (#10) or the bolt that is also the port or oil galley to supply oil to the head. I used clean engine oil on the full thread of each bolt.

I would like to say I tried to take every precaution when installing the head and gasket besides getting the block milled or the copper spray on the gasket. I blocked sanded the block with 220 grit smooth, I was able to get the steel to shine in most spots, and in any spots that were still dark I took it as those were the low spots. I don't know that it is recommended or what I should do but most of the time for gasket surfaces I usually use a new razor or box cutter blade that I try to run over all areas of the head and block to check for any nicks or any spots that it snags on or protrudes from the head or block. I cleaned both mating surfaces numerous times with mineral spirits on a ling free rag and than used brake cleaned until nothing was being picked up on the rag or shop towel. I never once touch the gasket or removed it from packaging to look at it or touch it, once I opened it, it was put on the block immediately while trying not to touch the gasket the amount possible. Then set the head on top, threaded each bolt in finger tight in the correct order, than torqued to 25, 35, and 45 where it sits now.

I am just stuck between taking the gasket off to spray it in case of a leak because I didn't spray on first installment and the block wasn't milled, OR leave it because I don't know if it would than be worse since the gasket had already be torqued on and possibly crushed permanently and not reusable.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:25 am

No headgasket is considered reusable. MHG less so than any. Once you tighten it down it has conformed to that exact configuration. If you take it off then it could be in a slightly different location when you retorque it. The chances of it leaking increase drastically on the second tightening. Copper coat may increase the chances of it working but no more than you have right now.

Also the 22-90-90 method only works with stock HG and bolts. If either change then that method is irrelevant.

The block surface really depends on a lot of things. DId you check it for flatness with a machinist straight edge and feeler gauges?
How did you sand it? If you used a honing stone or machined steel block with sand paper you could get it flatter than it was. If you sanded it by hand or with a soft/flexible block you could have made it less flat. If you sanded it with any sort of power tool you would have likely wrecked it.

Any way you cut it I think you are too far in now. I think you should leave it and cross your fingers.
In the future try to remember to address all these concerns before hand. Straight edge the block, measure your bolts for stretch and replace if out of spec, Confirm the torque spec before torquing and follow all the instructions in the FSM.
This should assure you everything goes well.
Like I said about the HG though the FSM assumes all OEM parts so you have to check when using non OEM parts. Different HGs call for different torque specs. ARP studs call for different torque specs.

I do like to use a light coat of copper coat on the HG but it should not be necessary if everything is in spec. If it's out of spec there is no guarentee copper coat will help and even if it did may only do so short term.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Pidge526 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:16 am

Thanks for the reply, I guess right now I am kinda kicking myself in the rear for not being more cautious on possibly one of the most crucial part of engine reassembly.

I guess I just thought that since it hasn't even been heated or any fluids ran past/through it, right now would be the best time if ever to spray it with copper coating but I get what you're saying. From my understanding about MHGs is that was one key factor about them, sometimes being reusable vs a normal oem style. When I took the head off during tear down I found that the previous owner of the vehicle must have replaced the HG and used copper spray from the looks of the gasket. When he sold it to me he said it had an HKS MHG but I didn't really believe him at the time, but it never leaked or burnt any fluids out the exhaust. It looked to be a thicker gasket made out of almost 4 metal plys and didn't look like he had either the head or block resurfaced on the previous installment so I guess like you said I'll have to keep my fingers crossed and pray that it's sealed well enough on initial start up.

What I thought was odd was in my "Hayne's" repair manual it had the head torque spec to 44 ft/lbs and that was it. No step before or after that, just said to work up to that in 3 passes.

Unfortunately the block was not checked with a machine straight edge if I remember correctly, I had the machinist look at it in the back of my car when I dropped the head off to get resurfaced, but that's all he really did was look at it for condition, anything that really stood out, etc. I told him I planned on running a MHG and he thought it was fine to just rough the surface up a little with a sanding block lightly and that's about it.

The block surface was sanded lightly with little pressure using a soft rubber sanding block and 220 grit wetsand with brake cleaner/mineral spirits as a lubricant.

As far a torque I tried looking what others did previous as how I did mine without getting the block decked and not using copper spray. I came up with 35,45,52 but stopped at 45 for the night to check one final time to make sure it was correct.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby MisterJerk » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:36 am

AFAIK, you need to torque the trd head gasket more for it to seal. In my experience, stock torque is too low for the trd head gasket. I normally torque mine down to 55 ft/lbs. In my case, I haven't had a TRD head gasket fail(crosses fingers, knocks on wood, etc.) I am also the assholio that reuses them too.

Feel free to hate on me and talk all the shiz you wish, this works for me. To reuse, Paint it with high heat black, when dry, spray a thin coat of copper. Put it on, in the correct orientation, slap the head on. DO NOT forget the head bolt washers. You will have cleaned out all of the head bolt holes in the block and oiled them lightly, before hand. Follow the factory torque procedure, then one final pass to 55 ft/lbs

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:14 am

MisterJerk wrote:AFAIK, you need to torque the trd head gasket more for it to seal. In my experience, stock torque is too low for the trd head gasket. I normally torque mine down to 55 ft/lbs. In my case, I haven't had a TRD head gasket fail(crosses fingers, knocks on wood, etc.) I am also the assholio that reuses them too.

Feel free to hate on me and talk all the shiz you wish, this works for me.


I don't think it deserves hate or shiz lol. I just think people should know that reusing it increases the chances of it failing. You hear of enough new gasket installs failing on the boards that the last thing you want to see is people doing things that will make it more likely.

If you understand the increased risk and are willing to take that risk then there's nothing wrog with trying.
How many times have you reused a gasket?

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Pidge526 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:09 pm

MisterJerk wrote:In my case, I haven't had a TRD head gasket fail(crosses fingers, knocks on wood, etc.) I am also the assholio that reuses them too.


From this are you saying when reusing them or on initial install brand new? What do you think I should do in my situation? Take it off to spray it with copper or leave it on, torque it to 55ft/lbs, and keep my fingers crossed it seals?

Before I know my best option between the two I really don't want to go any further with the rebuild if I have to just tear it down again. So for now I'm stuck. I am just curious which option you guys think it would have a better chance at it sealing the first time.

Thanks
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby MisterJerk » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:35 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:How many times have you reused a gasket?


I have only reused the TRD metal head gaskets. obviously the paper ones will be destroyed first time its crushed.
In jdm land, reused the same steel TRD gasket and head on 5-6 different blocks. I only bought a new one, cause they were 5000 yen.

The TRD 0.8mm head gasket I'm currently running has been reused 3x. same block, 2 different heads. stock head, then a ported, polished, 0.5mm shaved. all on top of a blacktop 20v block. and once when i jumped timing belt a tooth and bent all my intake valves.

For the first time i used it, just straight on, 25,35,45,55 ft/lbs.

for re-use, must remove everything on the gasket, dirt, oil, everything. Paint light coat of high temp(bbq) black, let dry. another really light coat of black, let dry again. Copper sealant spray, very light coat. Cylinder head and block have to very clean, just like any other gasket install. Torque in whatever steps you want, I went toyota style, 25,35,45,55 ft/lb at the end of it all.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby MisterJerk » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:40 pm

Pidge526 wrote:From this are you saying when reusing them or on initial install brand new? What do you think I should do in my situation? Take it off to spray it with copper or leave it on, torque it to 55ft/lbs, and keep my fingers crossed it seals?

Before I know my best option between the two I really don't want to go any further with the rebuild if I have to just tear it down again. So for now I'm stuck. I am just curious which option you guys think it would have a better chance at it sealing the first time.

Thanks



Honestly, I would try and torque it down a bit more, if you are confident that the headbolts are indeed torqued to 45 ft/lbs, torque it 10 more ft/lbs in the correct sequence. If it seals, good to go. If not, take it all apart.


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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Jimmee1990 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:14 am

To be honest you're machinist sounds like he has no idea about metal head gaskets, and considering it's impossible to check the block surface before cleaning the old gasket material off his opinion worries me also. I always torque MLS gaskets on 4A-GE's to 70nm (about 52ft/lb) so I would suggest just giving it a little more and cross your fingers it doesn't leak as it can sometimes be surprising how bad of a surface will still hold a gasket. Taking the head off to put some sealant on would be counter-productive in my opinion, as your compromising the gasket to add some extra insurance. Also worth noting I've never used any kind of sealant on any MLS gasket and never had one fail.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby gotzoom? » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:31 am

Harbor Freight sells a leakdown test kit for not much money. If you do a leakdown test on the engine before pouring in fluids, it could save you a lot of time and effort if the hg isn't sealed. If the leakdown test fails, you can say with pretty high certainty that any fluids you pour in will end up in your cylinder bores.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:15 pm

A bit of goooooogling tells me that most MLS gaskets rely on the pressed bead
around the bores to provide the necessary sealing pressure. The bead acts like
a spring, and does not permanently deform after a single use, which means that
the gasket can be reused until permanent deformation does take place. Google
also tells me that most MLS gaskets have a surface coating to aid with cold
sealing of the gasket before the first heat cycle.

The aluminum head is the most likely surface to be damaged in service with
a conventional gasket, and this has been cleaned up by machining. The block
surface, being harder, is less likely to be damaged, so removing all the old
gasket material, cleaning and inspection of the surface (particularly in the area
of the fire ring seating), should be sufficient. There should be no scratches
capable of being felt with a fingernail on any of the sealing surfaces.

As stated above, there should be no need to use copper spray with a new
gasket, and MLS gaskets will typically specify a higher torque than conventional
graphite gaskets. So I am with Jimmee on this one... give it one more pass :)

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:00 pm

http://www.trdparts.jp/parts_engine-4a-g16.html

Basic specifications: 11115-AE814/824 0.8/0.5 650 ± 20 Metal

650kg/cm = 47ft/#s

With that said... I'd likely run them to 50#s.

Concerning the pattern....
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Pidge526 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:16 pm

Thanks for the replies guys, the information and suggestions really help alot.

From what I'm hearing from most of your replies has made me a little more at ease about the situation with the chance that it may seal.

Tonight I did one final pass on the head bolts to 55 ft/lbs and I guess I'm gonna hope that it seals. I'm planning on getting it back in the car early this weekend and if everything goes as planned will hopefully start it late this weekend or early next week to see what my result is and will post what I find out.

Thank you oldskewltoy for the actual specs. from the TRD site, at least now I'll know I'm in the ballpark of the manufacturers listings.

jondee86, I took extra precaution when cleaning and inspecting the block seeing as I wasn't getting it decked so hopefully the bit of extra time I spent on prepping the surface(s) pays off.

Thanks for the suggestion gotzoom I'll consider looking into that seeing as there is a Harbor Freight nearby from my location.

Jimmee1990 I have to agree with you, he seemed like a nice guy but I kinda had the feeling that since I wasn't one of his "regulars" that either brings in a race motor or something occasionally, he probably didn't want to put much time into checking it out. Hearing about your success rate with MLS gaskets w/o sealant or spray also helps too.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Pidge526 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:51 pm

Hey guys, so it's been awhile but did get it started and for the first 100 miles the gasket held without leaking or burning anything, unfortunately though it did start to leak majorly and head to pull the head. The leak was at the rear of the engine, just behind the cyl. 4.

Just a few of the surface of the block:
Image

Image

The warpage of the gasket when I pulled it off:
Image

The spot the coolant leaked through:
Image

Opposite side:
Image

I didn't use copper spray which I forgot to do and risked it. Just curious if you guys think the gasket is even reusable anymore according to MisterJerk reusing his 5-6 times. I'd probably do his method of stripping the paint off, respraying it with high heat spray paint, and than copper spray on top of that.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby MisterJerk » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:54 pm

Pidge526 wrote:Image

Image

The warpage of the gasket when I pulled it off:
Image


I didn't use copper spray which I forgot to do and risked it. Just curious if you guys think the gasket is even reusable anymore according to MisterJerk reusing his 5-6 times. I'd probably do his method of stripping the paint off, respraying it with high heat spray paint, and than copper spray on top of that.


Gasket looks good, from the pic. is there still a raised ring where the gasket leaked?

The block, unfortunately, does not. Looks like a rough, rusted surface, that will likely cause a leaking head gasket everytime.
Thats all I can tell from the pics.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Pidge526 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:42 pm

There is still a raised ring where it leaked, my thought was from the pitting or low (dark) spots in the block was what could have caused it to leak. Right now I'm stuck trying to decide it repainting and copper spraying the gasket would actually seal it this time or if I should go with a regular head gasket that actually crushes that might seal better if I decide not to pull the block to get it decked.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:04 pm

Did you have the block decked before installing that gasket? It sure doesn't look like it. With any MHG you need to deck both surfaces especially if it looks like the surface of the moon as yours does.
Even though I can see reusing a HG that has been mated to a perfectly smooth surface I would not reuse a gasket that mated to a surface that looks like yours. Those pits and grooves could imprint onto the sealing surface and prevent it from sealing again.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:06 pm

Pidge526 wrote:There is still a raised ring where it leaked, my thought was from the pitting or low (dark) spots in the block was what could have caused it to leak. Right now I'm stuck trying to decide it repainting and copper spraying the gasket would actually seal it this time or if I should go with a regular head gasket that actually crushes that might seal better if I decide not to pull the block to get it decked.


It's hard to tell from pictures but from what I can tell I wouldn't even trust a fiber gasket to guarantee sealing that up.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby rix86 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:13 pm

Needs to be decked, plain and simple.
Can almost guarantee the head needs machining too.
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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby nevomr2 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:05 am

Like what was mentioned already, you should have had the block machined as well specifically for a metal headgasket. I wouldn't reuse a failed gasket - why chance it over $100?

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Jimmee1990 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:08 pm

I wouldn't bother with the guy that did your previous machining, the top of your block has some seriously deep scoring and would need to be decked even to use a normal composite gasket. If he's missed that god knows how capable he is at anything else. Once a gasket has leaked I wouldn't re-use it as it's been compromised by temperature and/or the poor surface finish.

Long story short, find a machinist who isn't so clueless and get it decked properly and use a new gasket. Don't bother trying to run what you have, it will fail again.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby MisterJerk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:12 am

I knew a dude that JB welded a block in similar condition, it lasted for a while(almost a year)

It could work for a temporary solution and it will last more than a 100 miles.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby JungleMatic » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:19 am

Was just going to say the same. I've filled even bigger holes than that with JB and had success. As long as it's not right on the piston wall it's a good fix and it will last.

To run a MHG on that you'll need a resurface (JB after if it's still a bit pitted). I would even have concerns of a stock HG sealing on that garbage.

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Re: TRD 0.8mm Headgasket torque specs for bluetop? Copper sp

Postby Jimmee1990 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:19 am

Please don't use JB weld, it expands at a different rate and will eventually seperate. Get the block decked until it cleans up and use a new gasket, and you will gain a little extra compression that way also which is a bonus. If you try dodgy fixes to get it running you'll get a dodgy engine, simple as that.

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