crankshaft choice

bristolrover
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby bristolrover » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:42 pm

Oldeskeweltoy knows his stuff and is making me more confident on using a reworked new stock crank.Thanks.... The only thing on the crank is the trigger for the electromotive ignition. That's the way these cars came from Smart Racer, the company that built them.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby jdm86gtz » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:17 pm

User name SBailey from the old forum (or something to that effect) discovered the manufacturer of the Tomei billet cranks and was offering them from his shop for around $1500 (or it worked out to 1500 Euro with the exchange rate). His shop specialised in BMW if memory serves.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby burdickjp » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:34 am

Rogue-AE95 wrote:I have a set of those 40-20 rods... can't wait to get my build finished. Only thing I had wondered about was no oiling holes, but as OST mentioned, they're not always necessary? Between those and the non-squirter block I'm using, should I be concerned?


I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back to you sooner about this. It has been explained to me by a few different people in the industry that the oil squirter on OEM connecting rods is used to spray oil on the thrust side of the cylinder wall to reduce wall wear in low load, low RPM situations. This is one of a few things used to get 200,000+ miles out of an engine. 99.99% of aftermarket rods will not have these. You'll notice the blacktop 20v does not have these. It DOES have a notch parallel with the beam of the rod, and different connecting rod bearings, which allows it to spray oil directly at the wrist pin, to help lubricate the pin. SOME aftermarket rods will have that, but most then assume you'll modify the rod bearings to suit, which I'm not a fan of. Oil squirters in the block spray oil at the underside of the piston crown to help cool the piston. I'd assume some of it splashes around the pin and cylinder walls as well, but that's not its primary purpose. I prefer squirter blocks.

It's not hard to find a squirter block, and not much harder to have a block fitted for squirters. The big question is: what are you going to do with the engine?
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:48 am

burdickjp wrote:
Rogue-AE95 wrote:I have a set of those 40-20 rods... can't wait to get my build finished. Only thing I had wondered about was no oiling holes, but as OST mentioned, they're not always necessary? Between those and the non-squirter block I'm using, should I be concerned?


I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back to you sooner about this. It has been explained to me by a few different people in the industry that the oil squirter on OEM connecting rods is used to spray oil on the thrust side of the cylinder wall to reduce wall wear in low load, low RPM situations. This is one of a few things used to get 200,000+ miles out of an engine. 99.99% of aftermarket rods will not have these. You'll notice the blacktop 20v does not have these. It DOES have a notch parallel with the beam of the rod, and different connecting rod bearings, which allows it to spray oil directly at the wrist pin, to help lubricate the pin. SOME aftermarket rods will have that, but most then assume you'll modify the rod bearings to suit, which I'm not a fan of. Oil squirters in the block spray oil at the underside of the piston crown to help cool the piston. I'd assume some of it splashes around the pin and cylinder walls as well, but that's not its primary purpose. I prefer squirter blocks.

It's not hard to find a squirter block, and not much harder to have a block fitted for squirters. The big question is: what are you going to do with the engine?


4A-GTE. I'm hoping for around 300 WHP, or just under that (AE95 being AWD). I've got brand new stock late GZE pistons (8.9:1) and I was thinking about running a T28 turbo. I'd rather have the 200k+ mileage on the motor after it gets built since I semi-daily drive this (along with my other car). Plus I want a rebuilt engine to last, to me it's the whole point of building a reliable yet fun engine.

Is it safe to have those rods modified? I'd have to go with a 20v squirter block because of the transfer case on my gearbox. Money I can't spend right now... plus finding a 20v block locally wouldn't be possible since Toyotas just aren't popular out here. More of a Honda scene here.

My original plan was high compression NA, but quickly learned I wouldn't be happy with the power output considering all the money spent on parts (this isn't a B18C1 :oops: ). As it is, I may have to sell off the Fidanza GZE flywheel I got and go with an OEM one. I'd hate to have to recoup more money from parts acquired for my build.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby burdickjp » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:06 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:4A-GTE. I'm hoping for around 300 WHP, or just under that (AE95 being AWD). I've got brand new stock late GZE pistons (8.9:1) and I was thinking about running a T28 turbo. I'd rather have the 200k+ mileage on the motor after it gets built since I semi-daily drive this (along with my other car). Plus I want a rebuilt engine to last, to me it's the whole point of building a reliable yet fun engine.

Is it safe to have those rods modified? I'd have to go with a 20v squirter block because of the transfer case on my gearbox. Money I can't spend right now... plus finding a 20v block locally wouldn't be possible since Toyotas just aren't popular out here. More of a Honda scene here.

My original plan was high compression NA, but quickly learned I wouldn't be happy with the power output considering all the money spent on parts (this isn't a B18C1 :oops: ). As it is, I may have to sell off the Fidanza GZE flywheel I got and go with an OEM one. I'd hate to have to recoup more money from parts acquired for my build.


Good piston choice, but I don't think a 40mm crank will be best for your goals.

Most concerns for 40mm cranks involve the entire 3-rib engine, and thus also take into account the 3-rib block and 18mm wrist pins. Using a 7-rib block, reinforcing the mains, running lighter connecting rods, and using 20mm wrist pins can take the 40mm crank a bit further. Even so, I think you're outside of the generally accepted limits of the 40mm crank. At best, you won't be able to get regular reliability out of it. You'll be beating those tiny little bearings up!
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:21 pm

I would ditch those rods and get some stock 42/20s. If you really want to spend money then get a set of crower sportsman or the 42mm molnars but unless you plan on spinning the motor over 9k there is no reason to run aftermarket rods.
Run a 7 rib block and 42mm crank.
It's likely that a 40mm crank and or a three rib block would hold up fine but why risk it when there are better components readily available.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:08 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote: unless you plan on spinning the motor over 9k there is no reason to run aftermarket rods.


light weight rods do wonders for throttle response....

Rogue... if you want... I'll trade you a set of TRD 4AGE rods(42/19), for your set of 40/20 rods.

Image

The TRD rods use a 19mm small end, so you will need to have them opened up, but there is enough room available in the small end to do that.

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:It's likely that a 40mm crank and or a three rib block would hold up fine but why risk it when there are better components readily available.


DOESN'T fit the All-Trac transaxle... ONLY the original 4AFE, or 20V blocks have the clearance required

Image

Image
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:24 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote: unless you plan on spinning the motor over 9k there is no reason to run aftermarket rods.


light weight rods do wonders for throttle response....



18 PSI boost does wonders for NGAF about gaining a couple milliseconds in throttle response. :o

He wants squirters so finding a 20v block may not be the worst idea. Personally I would not be too concerned with squirters. Even if I ran a three rib block I'd still try to run a 42mm crank and rods.
Another option would be a 7AGE. I'm not usually a big fan of this engine but in this case it might be a decent option. If I'm not mistaken it should work with the alltrac trans.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:43 pm

Thanks for the offer, OST. I'll have to think about it. Any idea how much it would cost to have those piston ends opened up and bushed to 20mm? Can Loyning's do that sort of work?

And somewhat back on topic, I'm a bit surprised that the early crank isn't capable of handling higher HP. Now I've got to find a 42mm crank (and rods, perhaps) locally, which won't be easy, and kick myself for not getting the complete smallport longblock that I pulled the head off of over a year ago at a junkyard :|

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:He wants squirters so finding a 20v block may not be the worst idea. Personally I would not be too concerned with squirters. Even if I ran a three rib block I'd still try to run a 42mm crank and rods.
Another option would be a 7AGE. I'm not usually a big fan of this engine but in this case it might be a decent option. If I'm not mistaken it should work with the alltrac trans.


Yeah, the 7A block also has the cutout on the block & pan. There might be some grinding like the 20v example shown above by OST, but the important thing is the oil pan shape.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:50 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:Thanks for the offer, OST. I'll have to think about it. Any idea how much it would cost to have those piston ends opened up and bushed to 20mm? Can Loyning's do that sort of work?

And somewhat back on topic, I'm a bit surprised that the early crank isn't capable of handling higher HP.


No one is saying that it can't or that it won't, just that the 42mm would be better and safer. You might be able to get 100k miles out of the 40mm crank at 300 hp but how much would it suck if you only got 10k then had to wonder if it was because of the smaller crank?
I haven't heard of a 40mm crank failing specifically due to high boost/power levels but at the same time I haven't heard of many people trying. I'm not saying you would be doomed but I do believe you would be wandering into much less charted territory wheras the 42mm crank has a number of success stories pushing a good bit more power reliably.
I guess instead of saying ditch those parts it may be better to say it would be wise if you wanted to hedge your bet and have the best chance of having a solid reliable motor.
If you don't mind the fact that there may be a slightly increased chance of something going wrong then you can run what you have. Note I said may because we really cant say for sure if the 42mm crank or a 7 rib block will give you any benefit for your goals but it may.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby totta crolla » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:44 am

burdickjp wrote:For me, I'd rather support companies who support good labor practices. If their working conditions aren't something I'd be willing to submit myself to, then I'm going to look elsewhere for my product. Most Chinese labor practices fail this test. Some American and European companies do, too!


Well said and I support your view 100%

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:19 am

Would Blacktop rods handle ~300 HP? I've read that they're smaller/lighter yet just as strong as the larger 42/20 rods. They just look so damn thin in the middle!
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:45 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:Would Blacktop rods handle ~300 HP? I've read that they're smaller/lighter yet just as strong as the larger 42/20 rods. They just look so damn thin in the middle!


I have not seen anything that is convincing in proving whether or not they are weaker or stronger. The only thing I have seen is a number of stories showing them holding up well in some pretty stressful applications including much above stock redline.
RPMs are far more stressful on rods than boost so theoretically they should be fine as long as you don't go crazy with the redline.

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:30 pm

OK, makes sense. For my build I'm (so far) only using early bigport cams in a smallport head. I don't have to worry about raising the redline, not yet anyway. But, I don't think I'd go very far north of 264 cams with my build.

Search is on for 42/20 crank and rods... I might end up just looking for a ST 20v shortblock. I appreciate the help & advice guys.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby rix86 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:22 pm

I didn't read the whole thread, but:


My large internals with arias pistons has seen 10k rpm quite a lot.
No failures yet.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby apsogosGTi » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:16 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:Image

authentic TRD crank $2500.00.... rods I already mentioned

main caps need to be made for each application. Loynings, Hasselgren, and a few others do this kind of work, you might find a local shop capable....

Loynings has quite a lot of experience building CSR cars - http://loyningsengineservice.com/CSRkits.html
The Swift Viking is designed to convert a Swift DB-4, .008 and .014 Formula Atlantic into a C Sports Racer. Engineered by Arnie Loyning, the Swift Viking utilizes the chassis and main components of the original Swift Formula Atlantic. By adding the extensions and new body pieces, the DB-4, .008 and .014 can be converted to a competitive C Sports Racer.


Jesus !I love this kind of photos,maybe the santa bring me a special crankshaft for a gift this gear !

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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:30 pm

rix86 wrote:I didn't read the whole thread, but:


My large internals with arias pistons has seen 10k rpm quite a lot.
No failures yet.


Large internals... 42mm/20mm crank & rods?

Apsogos... agreed!
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:39 pm

Someone I know who rebuilds engines mentioned having bearings coated. I'm guessing this is the same coating used for piston skirts. Anyone heard of this before? Would that bring more reliability to the 40mm crank and hoping for 200-something whp, under boost? Finding a 4A-GE crank/rods around here is like finding Shangri-La.

Remember that I'll be using early bigport cams, so stock redline.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:48 pm

coated bearings are fine for engines that come apart every 1000-5000 miles... you don't want coated bearings in a 60k+ mile type engine.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby rix86 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:47 am

Rogue-AE95 wrote:
rix86 wrote:I didn't read the whole thread, but:


My large internals with arias pistons has seen 10k rpm quite a lot.
No failures yet.


Large internals... 42mm/20mm crank & rods?

Apsogos... agreed!

Yes 42/20
balanced
otherwise stock 1991 redtop parts.
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Re: crankshaft choice

Postby rix86 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:50 am

Image
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