4a questions for turbo build

[alltracfreak]

Hey guys im new to the forum and have some questions regarding my build. I have a 91 celica st with a 3rib 4afe. Ive done some research and found that the 93 and up 4afe is a 7rib block and (correct me if this is wrong) uses the 42mm big end and 20mm small end rod with floating wrist pins?? Now ive seen guys make 190whp with the a bone stock 4afe 3rib block with the 40mm big end and 18mm small end rod with 207k miles. My power goal is 250whp for now and 350 to 400 later and id prefer to use 4agze rods and 8:9.1 gze pistons but im having a difficult time finding them, so i guess my question is how much power would the 94 4afe rods with arp bolts hold . Has anyone on here turboed a 4afe with successful results??

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I'm not sure about the 4AFE rods but the 20/42mm rods are all the same from NA to GZE, SP and LP. They should be rather easy to find.
Personally I would go with aftermarket pistons. I can get CP pistons which aren't bad or I can get you custom Wiseco pistons tailored to your build for not much more than the MSRP on their shelf 4A pistons.
Are you planning on using the FE head or GE head?

[onnaj]

I can get 4AGZE rods and pistons as well. Just shoot me a pm if you need anything.

Those stock rods and pistons are very strong, but i don't know how many hp they can safely handle. But someone over here can tell you that for sure

[alltracfreak]

Hmm. Maybe i should take the new motor apart and compare the rods. Ive seen people make 630 whp with stock gze motor with arp bolts. As far as the head goes im not to sure what im goin to run. I was considering the fe head for 220whp and just to get it running and the a lp or sp ge head for 350 to 400 whp. But i have a friend that dyno tunes and builds honda ecus and he said he can get my setup running on an obd1 honda ecu with the works (2step launch control, flat shift, check engine shift light, and antitheft) but he said it would be easier to do that with the 4age 20v head. I just dont know how pricey that would be. How much for the gze rods and pistons, or the wiseco or custom pistons. It would be nice to have 9:5.1 compression boosted

[yoshimitsuspeed]

If you are interested in buying new rods you still can through Lithia.
http://www.lithiatoyotaparts.com/parts/ ... eid=215542

Unfortunately any aftermarket rods I can get are going to be more than twice the price.


Custom Wisecos will be around $550.
CPs shelf piston are around $600.

I would highly recommend figuring out what head you are going to run first and then buy pistons to match the head.
I don't see anything that would make the 20v easier to make work with the honda ECU. The only big electrical difference between the NA 16v and the 20v is the dizzy but the GZE dizzy is the same function wise as the 20v dizzy.
I am running a BT on GZE electronics so I see no reason why you could run a 20v on a honda ECU and not a 16v.
I do prefer the 20v head personally though.

[alltracfreak]

Maybe i misunderstood him. Why do you prefer reasons why you prefer that head? It would be pretty cool to have itb turbo setup

[oldeskewltoy]

I can get you Atlantic rods.... $350 per set used, but usable. Just to note... the small end on Atlantic rods is 19mm....




and O/S valve heads....

[alltracfreak]

Im def going to be contacting you soon i think ill go with the Atlantic rods. How much for one if those heads?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Maybe i misunderstood him. Why do you prefer reasons why you prefer that head? It would be pretty cool to have itb turbo setup

Several reasons.
The port angle is better, the valve angle is better. The cams are bigger. This is especially important when it comes to boost, the stock 20v cams are fairly aggressive when it comes to a boosted build. The 16v cams on the other hand need upgrading for any build NA or boosted.
My background is the MR2 and the dizzy location is much better on the 20v head for the MR2 but not so much for the AE86 or other FR cars.
The VVT definitely spreads the power band over a greater range.
All that put aside just the technology and performance. I had a GZE AW11 that got converted to turbo AW11 on a GZE engine and electronics at one point running 12 PSI boost. When that motor blew up I went to a BT engine with the turbo plumbed up but the wastegate disconnected. At this point it made zero boost till about 6k RPM and maybe 1 PSI by redline. At this point I have to say I enjoyed the motor more than any iteration prior to it. One I started taking the boost up it couldn't be compared to any previous iteration of the 4AGE I had experienced. 6 PSI on the BT was seconds faster 0 to 60 than the 16v GZE engine at 12 PSI and multitudes more fun to drive.
I will admit there are a number of things that can be done to help get a 16V to a similar level such as cams and compression but some things like valve angle and port angle would be very difficult to change. Things like VVT just can't be practically added.

That said I must add, There has always been contention about which head is the best. I cannot tell you for a fact which head actually is but I can tell you that there is no 4AGE head that has not made impressive numbers. As far as motor choices you really cannot go wrong with the 4A-GE head whichever you choose.
I would take the SP over the LP and I would take the BT over the ST but they all have lots of potential.

[alltracfreak]

So how much would a blacktop head and throttle bodies be

[yoshimitsuspeed]

So how much would a blacktop head and throttle bodies be

That's going to come down to what you can find.
It's pretty rare to find a head and or ITBs on their own. Oftentimes your best bet would be to find the entire engine and quite often trans whether you want it or not.
If you don't get the whole setup top to bottom then you will be faced with making a setup that works between the various generations you try to put together.
If you want to go 20v I would recommend buying a full motor and using what parts you want. The rest you can sell if you don't need them.
There are some things like VVT that I think are pretty frikken cool but in the end if you decide to go 16v there are some big advantages that come along with small disadvantages.
The 16v is a USDM motor. Parts are easier to find, tuning has more development and so on.
My big point is that IMO don't go too far out of your way for a specific head. For me the order goes like this. BT, ST, SP, LP. That said they have all been proven to make impressive numbers. Don't bend over backwards for one over another because they all have great potential. If you are looking for the absolute peak potential of the 4A this may come under debate but otherwise it holds true. All the heads have made noteworthy HP and there will always be someone who believes one is ultimately better than the others. If buying a BT will cost you $600 more than starting with a LP that $600 into the LP will put you much farther ahead than starting with the BT.
The 4AGE has a ton of potential. The important part is figuring out how to optimize the dollars you spend to the performance you get.

[oldeskewltoy]

Im def going to be contacting you soon i think ill go with the Atlantic rods. How much for one if those heads?

The one top center is sold... the others range from $800-$1200.

[alltracfreak]

So if all the 20/42mm rods are all the same and lets say i take apart the 95 4afe and they are in fact 20/42mm rods then essentially they could hold the same amount of power as the rest correct? So what about the aw11 mr2 gze rods? And are they in fact floating wrist pins and not press in? Sorry if im asking a lot of questions but i have gotten a lot of different answers regarding rods. I read that the bt rods were thin and light weight and the st rods were thicker and well balanced and the gze rods were extremely stout. I def need to know the facts

[yoshimitsuspeed]

So if all the 20/42mm rods are all the same and lets say i take apart the 95 4afe and they are in fact 20/42mm rods then essentially they could hold the same amount of power as the rest correct? So what about the aw11 mr2 gze rods? And are they in fact floating wrist pins and not press in? Sorry if im asking a lot of questions but i have gotten a lot of different answers regarding rods. I read that the bt rods were thin and light weight and the st rods were thicker and well balanced and the gze rods were extremely stout. I def need to know the facts

There is no difference between NA rods and GZE rods.

The BT rods are smaller and lighter but I have yet to see any evidence that proves they are weaker. They could be a better design, they could be a different alloy. They could be better than any of the rest for all we know.
On top of that running boost does not significantly increase the stress on a rod.
The most stress a rod sees is under tension as the piston is flying to TDC and then reversing direction. The highest tensile load is on the exhaust stroke when there is nothing pushing back. On the compression stroke the air charge and combustion actually relieves some of this tension on the rod. The only exception might be under cases of extreme preignition.
RPM is what threatens rods, not boost.

[alltracfreak]

Thats the answer im looking for. Thanks!!! Now i have something to compare to. If i pull the 95 4afe rods and they are 20/42mm and they are the same as the other 20/42mm then ill just have them NDT put some ARP bolts and then check all my tolerences and put some after market pistons on. After i figure out what head im going to use of course. Leaning more toward lp or sp head for cost reasons.

[alltracfreak]

And availability of parts

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I should have all the ARP hardeware you should need on my site but if I don't have something you want up there I can get it.
http://matrixgarage.com/store/bottom-end
Before going much past 250 it might be a good idea to reinforce the bottom end with something like these.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/tomei- ... oyota-4age
This is another thing that is much more important with high revs but it will be a little added insurance for high boost as well.
On the subject of revs, you will have a much easier time hitting your numbers if you tune it for high RPM power.
This will allow you to run more compression and need less boost per HP you make.
For your goals a set of cams will help a lot. This would probably be a pretty good choice.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/kelfor ... agte-4agze
Maybe even a little bigger with more lift. The 193B might be an interesting choice or maybe even a custom 260-280 with as much lift as possible.

If you want to order a bunch of stuff at once I should be able to beat any price you will find getting them from various places to when you know what you want hit me up and I'll see what I can do for you.

[alltracfreak]

What rom can i take the gze rods with arp bolts too. Lol i was actually considering those cap ladders for the build. I was also thinking about under bucket shims from the toyota yaris i believe?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Not sure how fast you can spin the stock rods. I am pretty sure I have heard of at least a couple people taking them to 9k or so. If you really want to spin it that high you would be better off just buying the TRD rods from OST. I have to say that's a tempting price if they are healthy. The similar Carrillos I can get are over $1200.
Throw some custom pistons on them and you would have a pretty rad setup.

[alltracfreak]

Id be happy with 8k but that is a hell of a deal

[alltracfreak]

I need to get a hold of a low priced short block. Does anybody know if the 4age and 4afe have the same mount location for the accessories like ac power steering and alternator? Thats why i was considering using the 4afe block because i dont know if they have the same locations so i was just playing it safe

[Rogue-AE95]

4A-FE rods are different than 4A-GE rods.

4A-FE and 4A-GE blocks do share the same mounting points for the accessories. I'm actually using a '97 FE block for my 4A-GTE build, only because I have an All-Trac and need the cutout on the oil pan and block that the '93-'97 FE (and 20v GE) blocks have. I won't have oil squirters, but I've been told that they're not incredibly necessary anyway. Take that with a grain of salt...

As far as block integrity, the '97 FE block I have is a 7-rib. I'm not at all worried about it for a ~300 HP build. I wish I had obtained a 20v longblock and just used its crank, rods, and windage tray... as it is I had to get everything separately and I'm sure cost-wise I didn't come out on top. But I'm also using an early bigport crank (40mm rod journals) with custom 40/20 rods.

[oldeskewltoy]

the block, being cast iron, is pretty stout...

There are FAR superior ways to reinforce the bottom end then ladder caps.... don't waste your money on these... if you NEED to reinforce the bottom end... the first solution is to have forged main caps made - stock caps are cast. If you need MORE than that... then cross strap the block @ #2 and #4 main

**IF** you're using ARP head studs... BE VERY CAREFUL when it comes to the OIL clearances on the front exhaust stud. This is NOT to be confused with the distributor drive gear clearance problem on the same bolt.


I have an All-Trac Corolla too..., mine is an 1989 AE95, what you need to be concerned about is the block. The All-Trac Corolla block is unique, it has a notch cast in it back by #4 main on the intake side.



This notch is to clear the all trac transaxle differential






The good news is the 20V block is also cast with this notch. Although on the 20V block it does need a bit of extra material removal...




In my All-Trac I'm running a 20V silvertop block, crank, and rods... along with AE101 S/C pistons... and I'm running the stock 4AFE head... ported. The 4AGZE slugs under the 4AFE head provide about a 1/2 point bump in compression.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

the block, being cast iron, is pretty stout...

There are FAR superior ways to reinforce the bottom end then ladder caps....

There are but they are also much more expensive. When many people have done high HP builds without them and no reported failures that I can remember then I see it as just a little extra insurance.
If someone was trying to build a motor good for 14k RPM I would put a lot more emphasis on reinforcing that area as much as possible.
Of course if the OP does want to go that extra mile there is no harm in doing so as long as the wallet can take the hit.

[alltracfreak]

I have heard of issues with the arp head studs and the oil clearance. Never built a 4a motor so i wouldnt know what to look for and how to fix the problem. Any suggestions? And i know exactly what you mean with the block to gearbox clearance i had the same problem with my celica alltrac wheni used my 3sge block. I had to grind down the block lol but i wont be having that issue with my fwd celica

[oldeskewltoy]

but i wont be having that issue with my fwd celica

you MAY have a problem when it comes to transaxle strength. I'm pretty sure your fwd Celica is using a "C" gearbox (if it is attached to an "A" engine) Running a well built boosted (350-400hp) "A" engine is likely to turn the "C" series gearbox into junk pretty quickly....


with a fwd Celica... I'd likely look for a GTS donor... pretty sure they are 3SGE equipped, and so likely would also have an "E" series transaxle

[alltracfreak]

I plan on using the aw11 gze transmission.

[oldeskewltoy]

I plan on using the aw11 gze transmission.

not sure... but the AW11 "E" series might be tougher to come by... I do know the axles for their fitment into AW11 are made from 65% unobtainium, and 50% unicorn horn....

[alltracfreak]

Hmm so axels are goin to be an issue. Wouldnt they be an issue with any transmission i use?

[alltracfreak]

And did the 7rib 4afe that your using come with a counterweighted crank?