help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

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Jayrdee
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help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:51 pm

So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas
Image
Image
Last edited by Jayrdee on Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:39 pm

Nothing like diving in at the deep end for accelerated learning :)
Good luck with the build dude. Should be a rocketship when it is completed !!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:23 am

Jayrdee wrote:So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:59 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Jayrdee wrote:So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)


checking a bit further.....

83mm bore doesn't provide a lot of support on the cyl walls... likely need to "cement" block... recommend selling them, and getting 81.5, or 82 at most...
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:42 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)


checking a bit further.....

83mm bore doesn't provide a lot of support on the cyl walls... likely need to "cement" block... recommend selling them, and getting 81.5, or 82 at most...


Thanks for the input! I'll do some more investigating after I go through with the deal. To be honest I'm not too worried about it because I didnt pay very much for the car/chassis I'm trading the guy.

But if that's true about the 20v vs 16v valve thing, that would be pretty lame because literally on the Brian Crower website its listed as 16v Lol.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:18 pm

Here is a thread that is relevant and will save a lot of typing :)
https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=796

Not being an engine builder I can't say what problems might be involved in
fitting a stroker crank to a 4AGE block. But I would expect that a longer stroke
would demand a piston where the pin is closer to the top of the piston. No doubt
this would have been taken into account if all the components were ordered at
the same time, but worth checking if they were bought at random times.

And as is suggested in the above referenced thread, the best idea is to discuss
your plans with a suitably qualified builder of (preferably) Toyota race engines :)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:08 pm

Welp! The deal is done! On top of the parts I listed above, I also got a new clutch, driveshaft, and another 16v head.

I think its a good deal considering I have only "spent" 2k.

Anyways, Jondee I actually read that thread today during my 10 hr drive! While I totally get everyone's concerns about cylinder wall thickness and stuff, I cant help but wonder at what capacity that becomes a big issue? I see places that offer 83mm bores with their 4age stroker kits so obviously the size can work.

Like, im not trying to build a super high HP rev monster where i'll be hitting the limiter 24/7. Im after torque and mid-range power so thats less strain on the engine. And an upgraded cooling system would definitely help too.

I also found these during my drive:
https://www.raceeng.com/p-47161-darton-dry-sleeve-kit-toyota-4age-83mm-borekit.aspx

Either way, like you said next step will be getting a 2nd opinion with a reputable machine shop/engine builder.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:43 pm

Over quite a few years of reading posts on this and a range of other forums, I have found
that there are basically two different schools of thought when it comes to breaking new ground
or if you like, taking the path less trodden :) On the one hand you have folk who prefer the
safety of doing everything by the book. It is not in their nature to experiment or vary from
the tried and true. This is the conservative approach, and for very good reasons it is favoured
by anyone who carries out work for others as a business.

On the other hand you have those who like to push the envelope... take a few risks, try new
ideas, experiment, innovate, walk on the grass and touch the paint to see if it really is wet :D
Building a stroker 4AGE with 83mm bore does not put you at the head of the bunch but it
definitely puts you on this side of the fence (my side of the fence as it happens). If you choose
to try something different then you are the one who accepts the risk.

I think engineers call this risk assessment... weighing the satisfaction of achieving something
that not many are prepared to do against the possibility of disappointment should it all turn
to poop somewhere down the line. Careful checking, planning and making use of the advice of
a professional engine builder will swing the odds in your favour.

When boring the block your machinist should be able to establish if there is sufficient material
remaining for satisfactory engine operation. If in doubt then sleeving may be required to
salvage the block, and then you won't have any concerns about block failure in service. Darton
are a very well known supplier and they would not be offering a kit if there was no demand.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:48 am

[quote="Jayrdee"]So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


I have a 5AGZE (some call it 5.5AGZE) I just say 5AGZE because its easier
so my setup is supercharged for my 88SC MR2
its been running for around 9 years (wow time fly's)
my steel braided fuel line failed 2 weeks ago so i still need to fix that
and earlier this year I added a WB AFR meter

anyways ask away (never got the car on a dyno)


https://www.mr2oc.com/threads/5agze-up- ... ng.419364/
from that thread

Well I finished the 5AGZ and took it off Jack stands yesterday

I am glad this phase of the project is done
Drove the car to work today and I now have 55 miles on the new motor

Recap:
Basically this a 1.8 motor (1794)

AE101GZ oil squirter block
Small port head
HKS 5A crank
Carrillo rods
Custom 83mm wiseco pistons (18 mm pin)
ARP studs through out

Oversized intake and exhaust valves (I did not go with bigger seats so the 2mm oversized valves had to get turned down a little -- the intake more than the exhaust.


83mm head gasket
Fidenza adj cam gears
Jun 9lb steel flywheel (designed for 230mm clutch)
TRD 230mm pressure plate
TRD 230mm 3 puck driven disk

I am in the break-in stage but things are feeling pretty good

The car sounds like it has a aftermarket exhaust system but it?s just stock at this point

I am shocked as to the effect the 9lb flywheel has (I did not think it was that light)

SARD AFPR with 440 injectors
A friend said he saw a little black smoke as I shifted on the highway

SAFC for tuning

I had to send the crower cams back since they had a casting flaw
And I did not install the header because it had no provision for an O2 sensor

So far so good

oh I forgot a few links

https://motoiq.com/extreme-engine-tech- ... oyota-4ag/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK76Ssr ... Orgr1agYl-
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:43 pm

I can ask Loynings......

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.


above is why I recommend going with something a bit less challenging**.... maybe BC would take them back in exchange?? I can get Traum to build you a set.... cost likely $650


** - edit - unclear - 83mm pistons is what I'm talking about....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:21 am

An exchange would be awesome if I find out that the overbore is a no-go. I'll have to reach out to BC to see if they allow anything like that.

.. but then again, like jondee said, I definitely fall into this category.

jondee86 wrote:On the other hand you have those who like to push the envelope... take a few risks, try new
ideas, experiment, innovate, walk on the grass and touch the paint to see if it really is wet :D
Building a stroker 4AGE with 83mm bore does not put you at the head of the bunch but it
definitely puts you on this side of the fence (my side of the fence as it happens). If you choose
to try something different then you are the one who accepts the risk.

I think engineers call this risk assessment... weighing the satisfaction of achieving something
that not many are prepared to do against the possibility of disappointment should it all turn
to poop somewhere down the line. Careful checking, planning and making use of the advice of
a professional engine builder will swing the odds in your favour.


I've learned first-hand that's the difference between an "engineer" and a good engineer; risks. This method is what I like to call "F*ck around and find out".

Davegt27 wrote:
I have a 5AGZE (some call it 5.5AGZE) I just say 5AGZE because its easier
so my setup is supercharged for my 88SC MR2
its been running for around 9 years (wow time fly's)
my steel braided fuel line failed 2 weeks ago so i still need to fix that
and earlier this year I added a WB AFR meter

anyways ask away (never got the car on a dyno)


https://www.mr2oc.com/threads/5agze-up- ... ng.419364/

https://motoiq.com/extreme-engine-tech- ... oyota-4ag/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK76Ssr ... Orgr1agYl-


Thanks for the reference! Definitely keep me updated on how it runs. What cams did you go with?
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:29 am

I stuck the stock cams in but I also bought a set of TODA cams

I guess I got a little burnt out so I dont work on my cars like I used to
I still need to fix that fuel line
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:27 pm

spoke to Loynings... max they run is 1mm(.040") oversize
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Interesting. I found a pretty reputable shop in my area so I'm going to give them a call and see what they say.

Side note, I took everything out of the boxes today just to get a quick glimpse of what I got:
Image
Image

Also, Oldeskewltoy I looked at the valves and they're all ~6mm stems. I think BC is confused on their website.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jinx » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:55 am

A ton of 1.8 builds on various rolla forums; toymods, aedriving, ae86eu.org, dorikaze, rollaclub, etc...
if you want a peek at end results and performance figures
oldskewl Surreptitous 1.6L is a very good performer, for a full weight normally aspirated muffled street car @ 15.7 1/4 mile et
Intersted to see how much better a 1.8L + standalone + ITB goes. Is a 14.9 sec 1/4 mile a stretch? Rippin for a na 1.8L 2400#

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:19 am

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:10 am

Jayrdee wrote:
Also, Oldeskewltoy I looked at the valves and they're all ~6mm stems. I think BC is confused on their website.


Image Doess the diameter of the head measure 27, or 27.5??
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:43 pm

So, I bought a few books and downloaded some software to sharpen up on engine performance; Performance Automotive Engine Math - John Baechtel and Engine Analyzer v3.4 by Performance Trends. Pretty cool stuff if you're a nerd like I am.

Anyways ... I think I've developed a pretty solid plan for this engine build. In short:
- BC Stroker Kit
- 83mm 11.1 Pistons
- Rather than boring the block, I'll just get 83mm Darton sleeves.
- Toda 264/256 (10.3/9mm lift) cams
- BC Valve Springs
- Headwork (obviously)

After talking with oldskewltoy I think I'm going to pass on using the oversized valves. Besides the massive cost increase to be able to use them, I'm after torque and mid-range power and based on all my little experiments, the benefit of using the oversized valves would be marginal. The biggest thing I had to determine was what cams to use. That's where my little research/experiment started.

I tried my best to simulate (key word: simulate. This whole thing is only a simulation) a stock 16v bigport 4AGE motor on this engine analyzer software. They have 4age block data already, but not the heads so I had to manually input that data. This is the best ESTIMATE I could get:
Image
According to wikipedia lol, stock jdm 4age is 126hp @ 6600 rpm, so this is close enough I guess.

Here's the simulation settings:
(The software measures everything in standard only. So f*cking annoying)
Image

Image
Head Specs:
- Intake valve diameter: 29.5mm
- Exhaust valve diameter: 25.5mm
- Avg Port Diameter and Volume was calculated using the software (65mm width, 30mm height, Rounded Rectangle Shape)
- Port Length: ~95mm (this is a rough estimate. I just eye-balled it using a little scale, measuring from the intake port to the chamber)
- Flow Efficiency. The 1999 Honda B18 example head they have loaded measured an intake efficiency of 79% and exhaust efficiency of 76%. I arbitrarily picked 75%. Both heads have 16 valves.

Image
Cam specs: I stole this from the Bill Sherwood page, http://www.billzilla.org/4agstock.htm.

==============================================================
==============================================================

Now that I had a reference point, I plugged in my stroker kit and camshaft values:
Image

Image
I arbitrarily increased the efficiency from 75% - 85%.

Image
After inputing my cam specs, I let the software choose the "optimized" centerlines to yield Max Average Torque.

Which led to the following:
Image
I'll be spending most my time between 4k and 8k, so this figure looks pretty good. With a peak at 211hp, this would put me in the 160whp range which is perfect for me.

Image

==============================================================
==============================================================

While you're here .... (you're still reading this?)
Its really easy to spend hours trying out different combinations of specs and seeing how it affects your power output, especially camshafts. For example, Duration vs Angle vs Timing.

Here is a comparison between the Toda Cams I've picked vs Tomei Poncams; Set TA301-TY01C (306/290 angle and 11/10 mm lift). Both sets of Centerlines are "optimized" for Max Average Torque; Toda = Retarded 2 degrees, Tomei = Advanced 9.5 degrees.
Image

Here is a comparison with the Tomei Poncams Advanced 9.5 degrees and 0 degrees straight up:
Image

Obviously the Poncams would give me more "power". Nearly 240hp at the crank sounds good on paper, but it peaks at 9k. This car isn't some N2 spec time-attack monster, nor will I be hitting the rev limiter 24/7 drifting the thing, so i'll never even see that 240hp. If anything, it will drive like absolute ass around town!

Here's a comparison of the 1.8L motor with the fat poncams versus the bone stock 16v:
Image
Below 4500 rpm, the stock 16v makes more power Lol.

So ... yeah, this turned out to be longer than I expected! What do you guys think?
(If I'm wrong about anything or missing key details, please let me know!!)
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:24 pm

Jayrdee wrote:Obviously the Poncams would give me more "power". Nearly 240hp at the crank sounds good on paper,
but it peaks at 9k. This car isn't some N2 spec time-attack monster, nor will I be hitting the rev limiter
24/7 drifting the thing, so i'll never even see that 240hp. If anything, it will drive like absolute ass
around town!

I like it when there is an opportunity to introduce a debate about something only marginally relevant :)

Not being much interested in drifting I have been content to watch the sport develop over more years
than I care to remember. What started out as a sideline activity for old, relatively low powered N.A. cars
has evolved through a phase of high power turbocharged Nissans and Toyotas until today it is dominated
by factory V8's and LS swapped specials.

Considering the power delivery characteristics of these vehicles, the one thing that shows out to me is
that N.A with a broad torque curve has become the winning formula. Having sufficient torque to keep
the wheels spinning over a substantial part of the engines rev range without having to deal with a light
switch power delivery, must make it a lot easier to control the cars attitude in a drift.

So while you have your Engine Analyzer fired up it might be worth experimenting with cam timing and
overlap to see if you can broaden the torque curve even if it means losing a few ponies up top. Having
more torque available across a wider rpm range means you have a wider "sweet spot" which should make
it easier to hold a drift once initiated.

Maybe some of the guys who actually drift their cars on track can weigh in with opinions ?

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jinx » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:54 pm

I'd keep a tab on that 1.8 build. Seems 'costly' vs.....
hi mileage 4AGE + T3 turbo, megasuirted, or a 4AGZE(if you can still find one/or stock rod 7AGZE)
or a 1UZ/stock 240sx 5spd
Either will give you that fat torque band, with no comparison in acceleration.... or noise level

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:24 am

Since you need reliable info... a few corrections.... intake valves are not 29.5, but 30.5. Stock chambers are 36cc

And since you are playing.... what happens if you change the valve sizes from 30.5 to 32, and from 25.5, to 27.5


As to efficiency... how did you calculate that...?????
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:40 pm

jinx wrote:I'd keep a tab on that 1.8 build. Seems 'costly' vs.....
hi mileage 4AGE + T3 turbo, megasuirted, or a 4AGZE(if you can still find one/or stock rod 7AGZE)
or a 1UZ/stock 240sx 5spd
Either will give you that fat torque band, with no comparison in acceleration.... or noise level


Lol All this time and money for a few extra hp for an old Toyota ... :lol: :lol: On the bright side, at least I got all this stuff in a trade so I havent "spent" much yet!

oldeskewltoy wrote:Since you need reliable info... a few corrections.... intake valves are not 29.5, but 30.5. Stock chambers are 36cc
And since you are playing.... what happens if you change the valve sizes from 30.5 to 32, and from 25.5, to 27.5
As to efficiency... how did you calculate that...?????


Oh sh*t! 30.5mm?! Okay yeah I will go back and fix that. I just copy/pasted info from the billzilla website haha

The efficiency ... What would be a more appropriate value to use? You'd be the guy who would know! Stock bigport vs a port job completed by you. I just estimated 75% since the B-series head was a little over 75% too. Same "style"; twin cam, 16v, etc.

And the valves, there honestly wasn't much of a difference. Maybe like 3-5hp at the peak but thats about it. I can include a stock vs oversized valve plot when I go back and correct everything?


*EDIT*
Also, if anyone has any idea on what these measurements are, feel free to chime in! This would help get more accurate results.
- Runner length on the stock 16 manifolds
- Stock exhaust primary length
- Stock exhaust collector diameter and length (collector length could also be used for total exhaust length?)
- ITB total length. (Really I just need the "runner" length of an adapter plate since I don't have one at the moment)
[I have no idea what I'm doing]
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oldeskewltoy
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:37 pm

Jayrdee wrote:
The efficiency ... What would be a more appropriate value to use? You'd be the guy who would know! Stock bigport vs a port job completed by you. I just estimated 75% since the B-series head was a little over 75% too. Same "style"; twin cam, 16v, etc.

And the valves, there honestly wasn't much of a difference. Maybe like 3-5hp at the peak but thats about it. I can include a stock vs oversized valve plot when I go back and correct everything?




I can't give you efficiency, because I'm not sure how it needs to be calculated, I can give you before and after flow numbers, as well as before and after numbers for some big valve heads... and that difference would(should) be far more than 3-5hp...


Stock flow on a smallport head....

Image



and after big valve conversion AND porting....

Image


If it remained stock valves, but ported - typically flow is 200cfm @ .350 lift for the intake, and 135cfm @ 350 on the exhaust
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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