help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

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Jayrdee
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help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:51 pm

So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas
Image
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Last edited by Jayrdee on Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:39 pm

Nothing like diving in at the deep end for accelerated learning :)
Good luck with the build dude. Should be a rocketship when it is completed !!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:23 am

Jayrdee wrote:So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:59 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Jayrdee wrote:So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)


checking a bit further.....

83mm bore doesn't provide a lot of support on the cyl walls... likely need to "cement" block... recommend selling them, and getting 81.5, or 82 at most...
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Jayrdee
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:42 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:Just did a quick search... BC3363 should be a 20V exhaust valve - Not a 16V exhaust valve, the listed specs suggest that.... 4.97mm stem, and 108.4mm length are specs for 20V valves... you want 5.95mm stems, and 99.75mm length for 16V.....

(didn't check anything else....)


checking a bit further.....

83mm bore doesn't provide a lot of support on the cyl walls... likely need to "cement" block... recommend selling them, and getting 81.5, or 82 at most...


Thanks for the input! I'll do some more investigating after I go through with the deal. To be honest I'm not too worried about it because I didnt pay very much for the car/chassis I'm trading the guy.

But if that's true about the 20v vs 16v valve thing, that would be pretty lame because literally on the Brian Crower website its listed as 16v Lol.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:18 pm

Here is a thread that is relevant and will save a lot of typing :)
https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=796

Not being an engine builder I can't say what problems might be involved in
fitting a stroker crank to a 4AGE block. But I would expect that a longer stroke
would demand a piston where the pin is closer to the top of the piston. No doubt
this would have been taken into account if all the components were ordered at
the same time, but worth checking if they were bought at random times.

And as is suggested in the above referenced thread, the best idea is to discuss
your plans with a suitably qualified builder of (preferably) Toyota race engines :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Jayrdee
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:08 pm

Welp! The deal is done! On top of the parts I listed above, I also got a new clutch, driveshaft, and another 16v head.

I think its a good deal considering I have only "spent" 2k.

Anyways, Jondee I actually read that thread today during my 10 hr drive! While I totally get everyone's concerns about cylinder wall thickness and stuff, I cant help but wonder at what capacity that becomes a big issue? I see places that offer 83mm bores with their 4age stroker kits so obviously the size can work.

Like, im not trying to build a super high HP rev monster where i'll be hitting the limiter 24/7. Im after torque and mid-range power so thats less strain on the engine. And an upgraded cooling system would definitely help too.

I also found these during my drive:
https://www.raceeng.com/p-47161-darton-dry-sleeve-kit-toyota-4age-83mm-borekit.aspx

Either way, like you said next step will be getting a 2nd opinion with a reputable machine shop/engine builder.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:43 pm

Over quite a few years of reading posts on this and a range of other forums, I have found
that there are basically two different schools of thought when it comes to breaking new ground
or if you like, taking the path less trodden :) On the one hand you have folk who prefer the
safety of doing everything by the book. It is not in their nature to experiment or vary from
the tried and true. This is the conservative approach, and for very good reasons it is favoured
by anyone who carries out work for others as a business.

On the other hand you have those who like to push the envelope... take a few risks, try new
ideas, experiment, innovate, walk on the grass and touch the paint to see if it really is wet :D
Building a stroker 4AGE with 83mm bore does not put you at the head of the bunch but it
definitely puts you on this side of the fence (my side of the fence as it happens). If you choose
to try something different then you are the one who accepts the risk.

I think engineers call this risk assessment... weighing the satisfaction of achieving something
that not many are prepared to do against the possibility of disappointment should it all turn
to poop somewhere down the line. Careful checking, planning and making use of the advice of
a professional engine builder will swing the odds in your favour.

When boring the block your machinist should be able to establish if there is sufficient material
remaining for satisfactory engine operation. If in doubt then sleeving may be required to
salvage the block, and then you won't have any concerns about block failure in service. Darton
are a very well known supplier and they would not be offering a kit if there was no demand.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:48 am

[quote="Jayrdee"]So, this weekend I'm getting a bunch of Brian Crower 4age stuff in a trade deal.
- 1.8L Stroker kit - 83mm stroke with 83mm 11:1 pistons (PN: BC0360)
- Intake Valves - 32mm / +1.5mm (PN: BC3362)
- Exhaust Valves - 27mm / +1mm (PN: BC3363)
- Valve Guides (PN: BC3938/39)
- Billet Keepers/Locks (PN: BC2351)
- Springs/Retainers (PN: BC0365)
- 7rib 4age block
- t50 transmission
- Megasquirt MS2 PNP
I also have a set of silvertop throttle bodies I plan on using as well.

Does anyone here want to share their 1.8L 4age build experiences? What kind of numbers can I expect? etc.
I've never built an engine before so I want this to be a big learning experience for me. I do plan on porting/polishing the head too (oldeskewltoy?)

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.

Thanks fellas


I have a 5AGZE (some call it 5.5AGZE) I just say 5AGZE because its easier
so my setup is supercharged for my 88SC MR2
its been running for around 9 years (wow time fly's)
my steel braided fuel line failed 2 weeks ago so i still need to fix that
and earlier this year I added a WB AFR meter

anyways ask away (never got the car on a dyno)


https://www.mr2oc.com/threads/5agze-up- ... ng.419364/
from that thread

Well I finished the 5AGZ and took it off Jack stands yesterday

I am glad this phase of the project is done
Drove the car to work today and I now have 55 miles on the new motor

Recap:
Basically this a 1.8 motor (1794)

AE101GZ oil squirter block
Small port head
HKS 5A crank
Carrillo rods
Custom 83mm wiseco pistons (18 mm pin)
ARP studs through out

Oversized intake and exhaust valves (I did not go with bigger seats so the 2mm oversized valves had to get turned down a little -- the intake more than the exhaust.


83mm head gasket
Fidenza adj cam gears
Jun 9lb steel flywheel (designed for 230mm clutch)
TRD 230mm pressure plate
TRD 230mm 3 puck driven disk

I am in the break-in stage but things are feeling pretty good

The car sounds like it has a aftermarket exhaust system but it?s just stock at this point

I am shocked as to the effect the 9lb flywheel has (I did not think it was that light)

SARD AFPR with 440 injectors
A friend said he saw a little black smoke as I shifted on the highway

SAFC for tuning

I had to send the crower cams back since they had a casting flaw
And I did not install the header because it had no provision for an O2 sensor

So far so good

oh I forgot a few links

https://motoiq.com/extreme-engine-tech- ... oyota-4ag/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK76Ssr ... Orgr1agYl-
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:43 pm

I can ask Loynings......

The end goal is a reliable HPDE weekend / backroads "touge" racer; plenty mid-range power with a decent torque curve. And still be able to drive to work on Monday with no problems.


above is why I recommend going with something a bit less challenging**.... maybe BC would take them back in exchange?? I can get Traum to build you a set.... cost likely $650


** - edit - unclear - 83mm pistons is what I'm talking about....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Jayrdee
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:21 am

An exchange would be awesome if I find out that the overbore is a no-go. I'll have to reach out to BC to see if they allow anything like that.

.. but then again, like jondee said, I definitely fall into this category.

jondee86 wrote:On the other hand you have those who like to push the envelope... take a few risks, try new
ideas, experiment, innovate, walk on the grass and touch the paint to see if it really is wet :D
Building a stroker 4AGE with 83mm bore does not put you at the head of the bunch but it
definitely puts you on this side of the fence (my side of the fence as it happens). If you choose
to try something different then you are the one who accepts the risk.

I think engineers call this risk assessment... weighing the satisfaction of achieving something
that not many are prepared to do against the possibility of disappointment should it all turn
to poop somewhere down the line. Careful checking, planning and making use of the advice of
a professional engine builder will swing the odds in your favour.


I've learned first-hand that's the difference between an "engineer" and a good engineer; risks. This method is what I like to call "F*ck around and find out".

Davegt27 wrote:
I have a 5AGZE (some call it 5.5AGZE) I just say 5AGZE because its easier
so my setup is supercharged for my 88SC MR2
its been running for around 9 years (wow time fly's)
my steel braided fuel line failed 2 weeks ago so i still need to fix that
and earlier this year I added a WB AFR meter

anyways ask away (never got the car on a dyno)


https://www.mr2oc.com/threads/5agze-up- ... ng.419364/

https://motoiq.com/extreme-engine-tech- ... oyota-4ag/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK76Ssr ... Orgr1agYl-


Thanks for the reference! Definitely keep me updated on how it runs. What cams did you go with?
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:29 am

I stuck the stock cams in but I also bought a set of TODA cams

I guess I got a little burnt out so I dont work on my cars like I used to
I still need to fix that fuel line
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:27 pm

spoke to Loynings... max they run is 1mm(.040") oversize
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Jayrdee » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Interesting. I found a pretty reputable shop in my area so I'm going to give them a call and see what they say.

Side note, I took everything out of the boxes today just to get a quick glimpse of what I got:
Image
Image

Also, Oldeskewltoy I looked at the valves and they're all ~6mm stems. I think BC is confused on their website.
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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby jinx » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:55 am

A ton of 1.8 builds on various rolla forums; toymods, aedriving, ae86eu.org, dorikaze, rollaclub, etc...
if you want a peek at end results and performance figures
oldskewl Surreptitous 1.6L is a very good performer, for a full weight normally aspirated muffled street car @ 15.7 1/4 mile et
Intersted to see how much better a 1.8L + standalone + ITB goes. Is a 14.9 sec 1/4 mile a stretch? Rippin for a na 1.8L 2400#

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby Davegt27 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:19 am

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Re: help a n00b build a 1.8L 4age?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:10 am

Jayrdee wrote:
Also, Oldeskewltoy I looked at the valves and they're all ~6mm stems. I think BC is confused on their website.


Image Doess the diameter of the head measure 27, or 27.5??
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!