20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

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dr.occa
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20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby dr.occa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:33 am

ON WIRING:

Image
diagram re-worked in MS Paint by dr.occa from original diagrm by VitriumGTS - wiring based on 3 wire COPs from Honda Civic

Olle86 on C4AG wrote:This whole thread is very interesting... After reading it... I came across another simple solution in solving this problem. But, instead of coil packs and 4agze ignitor I'm using Coil On Plug (COP) off a Honda Civic and using original BT Harness, Dizzy, Ignitor and Coil. As Jousi mention earlier I also kept the ignitor and coil connected for tach use.
Image

Here's What I Did.
COP has 3 wires (pic above).
Black/White = Positive +
Black = Negative -
Colored/striped = Signal

1) I Connect all the negative wire (bundle) to chassis of car.

2) All positive wire (bundle) to Ignition switch 12v Blk/Orange (fire wall harness)

3) All Signal wire (bundle) connect to 20v Ignitor Yellow/Green (IGT).

4) Start your engine...

I'm no genuis or guru when it comes to electronics but just gave it a try and still shock until now that it worked. thanks to everyones infos/ideas on this "sticky thread"
I haven't had any problem yet with COP overheating, no engine light, starts & Revs smooth and nice sound, Car runs awesome.
Will post new pics of set-up later...

Here's an old pic of engine w/cop.
Image


Olle86 of C4AG wrote:positive wire - black w/white (12v ignition)
negative wire - black
signal wire - brown, white, blue and yellow (connect to IGT)

not sure if civic cops wires are same color as the rsx cop's.

...Yellow w/green wire is located on igniter (igt signal).


Olle86 on C4AG wrote:on the silvertop igniter wire harness i believe it's the BLACK WIRE is your IGT signal and black/yellow is your IGF. Please correct me if i'm wrong.


Olle86 on C4AG wrote:
sadtop101 on C4AG wrote:ya i know what your wire codes are, but what are the pin on the cop from left to right r cause they are hard to see in the pic that u posted. just need what each one is left to right on the cop. so it signal and then what power or neg? hard to see in pic yet again. just left to right....thanks

looking at the pics all signal wires are on left, negative in the middle and positive on the right. hope this helps... =)


VitriumGTS of C4AG wrote:
SRB from C4AG wrote:Hope this isnt too noob...

But just a thought, isn't the 20v igniter a smart igniter (adds dwell to limit coil charge time at low speeds to avoid overheating the coil)

As you are bypassing the 20v igniter for the igt signal to the Honda coils, wouldn't that mean there is no dwell being added.

I assume the output from the 20v igniter is something like 12v and the COP's need a 5v signal so you cant use the igniter output for igt signal on COP's


the COPs do get a 5v signal in the form of IGt off the 20v ignitor. All 4 are tapped into a single place

check out my diagram a few posts up


VitriumGTS of C4AG wrote:
SRB of C4AG wrote:Yup was looking at the diagram


The coils are tapped into the igt wire going from the ECU to the igniter


Thus the coils get the igt signal from the ECU not the igniter


Hence my question about the coils not getting any dwell added as the coils are tapped in prior to the 20v igniter (which I thought was a 'smart' igniter and added dwell)


yep. Its probably the reason why all 4 COPs can fire all at once without trouble


Olle86 on C4AG wrote:Toyota Coil on Plugs have 4 wire (POWER, IGT, IGF AND NEGATIVE). Connect everything else but the IGF (Fail safe)? - [i]not true for 93- 1MZFE COPs. 2 wire -dr.occa


mr220v from C4AG wrote:That's one advantage to using a toyota cop. The IGF signal can be provided by one of the cops, whereas with a honda cop you still need the 20v igniter and coil for this. With toyota cops, you could eliminate the coil. That leaves the igniter there for the tach signal only.


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"DOES IT WORK?"
Olle86 of C4AG wrote:I've been running the cop's since november of last year before posting anything on this topic and still going strong... no issues none what so ever...


Olle86 of C4AG wrote:
mr220v of C4AG wrote:Ok, if you allowed spark to be delivered just based on igt pulse, you would get spark:

1. At the normal place, 10btc at the top of the compression stroke

2. At the bottom of the power stroke (no problem)

3. At the top of the exhaust stroke (no problem)

4. At the bottom of the intake stroke (problem)

So I'm wondering how you're not igniting your uncompressed intake charge just as it's finished entering the cylinder? Is the bottom of the intake stroke spark delivered just before the injector is fired? That's all I can think of. The 20v's injection is sequential. Maybe that intake charge doesn't include fuel until the last second? If it was batch, which includes fuel from the start, I would think the uncompressed and fueled intake charge would ignite shooting flame out the intake?

I was thinking the same way about misfirinig and flames coming out of the intake manifold like timing would be off cause I only have one signal (Igt). but, believe it or not motor idles / starts normal and smooth. C.O.P are very fast there typical charge time is around 1.8 ms. I've rev'd the motor very hard many times haven't seen anything coming out of the intake and tail pipes. Forgot to mentioned that I connect the 1 & 4 together (IGN #1) and 2 & 3 together (IGN #2) like a 4 cylinder wasted spark ignition configuration. funny thing is that I only got 1 ignition signal/pulse (IGT). 4agze ignitor should work well cause it has two Ign output.

I'll try post pics and video when I get a chance....


Hicomp4ag of C4AG located in Okinawa, Japan wrote:I totally with ya. Spend $50 or $500~$600 on a Dizzy kit... hummm

Btw, Thank you all for sharing this information ! :thumbup:


mr220v on C4AG wrote:Nope, no factory ecu will run coil packs like this. The DLI GZE uses waste spark. You would consider this even more wasteful spark as the coils are being fired 4 at a time instead of 2.

Really, this is "batch firing" your coils. The reason you can get away with this on a 20v (I think) is because the 20v is sequentially injected. So....when that intake charge is being drawn, there isn't already fuel present. The spark occurs, and then the fuel is delivered.

If this were a 16v which fires injectors in pairs, there would be fuel present when the intake valves opened for the intake stroke. With a 16v or a gze, you would backfire out your intake.

So the reason this works is the short duration spark of the honda coils, and the 20v's sequential injection.


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"What!? No Distributor Cap!?"
Olle86 on C4ag wrote:ROME: yes... no cap and rotor. no issues on dirt getting in so far.

erix-7: got the c.o.p from my friend, saw Honda motor lying around inside his bodyshop. He did mention that the motor is off a civic, sorry not sure exactly what year.

Plex: the throttle response normal. it just the video quality and thanks


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"What COPs should be used?"
Olle86 on C4AG wrote:most late model toyota engine with cop's will work fine. I recently tried a few like off my 06 tocama, 06 corolla and scion just before pulling the motor out of the car. they all work very well, infact they seem stronger than the Civic one's have on my motor. I'm definitley going with the 06 corolla cop's perfect size. will post pics later...

Toyota Coil on Plugs have 4 wire (POWER, IGT, IGF AND NEGATIVE). Connect everything else but the IGF (Fail safe)?.


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"SHOW ME!"
Olle86 on C4AG wrote:... here's a small kine pics & video.
Image
Image
video
http://s128.photobucket.com/al...1.flv

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby ronny » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:55 am

you know, i always wanted to know how to do it.. but i was too lazy to read the 300 pages on the last forum.

but thank you! very clear and very easy.
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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby ronV8charmant » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:46 pm

I tried this on my 1995 lexus ls400 V8 engine using 8 lexus is200 6cyl beams coil packs and it works! the 95/96/97 ls400 have sequential injection and share the same igniters and coils as the 20v 4age

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Jeonsah » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 am

After reading this thread, I did some more research. Some people on here that are new need to familiarize themselves with some of the terms used in order to understand what is truly going on. Here are some good threads that will help the newcomers understand what is going on:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h39.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby seymour86 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:33 pm

How do you set your ignition timing? I would like to run 7mgte coils and ignitor (being that I have them) with a HAL sensor. I looked up the archived stuff but I think what I need is on page 2 and when I click on page 2 it takes me to the new forum

http://web.archive.org/web/201205080109 ... 900&page=1
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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby drift warrior fab » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:22 am

so. if I wire up these using igt off of the ecu I can ditch my coil and igniter setup ....?
and you would use your stock distributor (no cap and rotor) to adjust your timing as you would on a stock ig system

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby kennyb01 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:51 am

Just out of curiosity why bother with batch fire? It's not any more efficient than typical distributor. To reach optimal effinciency wouldn't sequential be best? Or at least waste spark.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby seymour86 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:57 am

drift warrior fab wrote:and you would use your stock distributor (no cap and rotor) to adjust your timing as you would on a stock ig system

Yes, but what do you hook your lead on the timing gun up to if you have no spark plug wires?
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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby drift warrior fab » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:14 pm

good call. Idk.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby dr.occa » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:43 pm

kennyb01 wrote:Just out of curiosity why bother with batch fire? It's not any more efficient than typical distributor. To reach optimal effinciency wouldn't sequential be best? Or at least waste spark.


Since the 20v is sequential injection, batch firing works on the 20v with the factory ecu. You essentially have a waste spark ignition with this setup.

seymour86 wrote:
drift warrior fab wrote:and you would use your stock distributor (no cap and rotor) to adjust your timing as you would on a stock ig system

Yes, but what do you hook your lead on the timing gun up to if you have no spark plug wires?


This has been addressed before: Stick a plug wire between the coil and plug of no.1

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby seymour86 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:16 pm

dr.occa wrote:
kennyb01 wrote:Just out of curiosity why bother with batch fire? It's not any more efficient than typical distributor. To reach optimal effinciency wouldn't sequential be best? Or at least waste spark.


Since the 20v is sequential injection, batch firing works on the 20v with the factory ecu. You essentially have a waste spark ignition with this setup.

seymour86 wrote:
drift warrior fab wrote:and you would use your stock distributor (no cap and rotor) to adjust your timing as you would on a stock ig system

Yes, but what do you hook your lead on the timing gun up to if you have no spark plug wires?


This has been addressed before: Stick a plug wire between the coil and plug of no.1


BAM! It all make sense now.
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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:37 pm

So I remember reading the ever-living **** out of the previous forum thread on using COP's, but only now am I able to do my silvertop swap. I remember a set of toyota coils will fit under the valley cover on the silvertop, does anyone remember which ones? I can't remember if it's 1NZ or 1ZZ COP's.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby dr.occa » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:31 am

Army Fork wrote:So I remember reading the ever-living **** out of the previous forum thread on using COP's, but only now am I able to do my silvertop swap. I remember a set of toyota coils will fit under the valley cover on the silvertop, does anyone remember which ones? I can't remember if it's 1NZ or 1ZZ COP's.


1NZ

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:38 pm

Thank you very much, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:45 pm

Just as a quick follow-up, you CAN run 1NZ coils under the valley cover on a silvertop if you remove the rubber washer on the coil. The positive is a cleaner engine bay, the negative is an unsealed plug tube. To get around this I suggest some gasket maker or a similar compound that can be easily removed and reapplied when needed.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Nyriks » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:45 am


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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:53 pm

I actually bought some stuff from SamQ, from what I understand he does not care for running the valley cover because he's unsure about coil cooling, without the cover though you'll need the plate. I decided against running the plate, but his stuff is top quality and I'd suggest it for anyone who's looking for the most reliable COP conversion
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby dr.occa » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:17 am

I concur: SQ Engineering has very good quality components for 4AGs such as the coil mounting plate for the 20v.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby me2kimi » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:49 am

Here is my DLI cop after I've follow the old thread.

http://me2kimi.blogspot.com/2012/05/4ag ... ition.html

latest update is I've remove the coil and spark plug. Replaced the coil with normal 12 volt relay and tachometer works. But I not drive with this setup anymore.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby rc.square24 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:17 am

For reference, a timing light should work fine just by clamping on the COP harness of cylinder 1 (or any cylinder really), without the need for hooking up a spark plug cable in between.

Also for the cam angle sensor/wheel cover I cut the 20v dizzy cover just a bit taller than the gear and epoxied a piece of acrylic over, painted it black.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:09 am

As a note I am definitely full of it, you can't actually fir 1ZZ COP's under a valley cover. They work fine until you buy the proper plugs, then you're SOL. Ahh well, custom CFRP valley cover here I come!

EDIT: Maybe not. I've recently tried a different set of plugs and with these the valley cover will fit. The stock plugs however will probably need a set of washers to properly space the valley cover.
Last edited by Army Fork on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby speedmaster » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:55 am

do u need standalone ecu for COP? or the stock ecu can handle it? TQ

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:38 am

COP's can be run with the stock ECU as a wasted spark system, no ECU swap is required.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby speedmaster » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:13 am

thank you for your reply. is this setup a lot better than stock?

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:01 am

It's effectively the same, but on a technical level it's less than perfect. Since it's a four cylinder batch fire, your plugs will wear faster and it can be finicky, some people have had their engines rev-limit at 4000 RPM before because of it.

Really the reason we do COP's it saves us cutting a firewall and it's way cheaper than a dizzy relocation kit. The nice thing about this though is that if you do go aftermarket ECU (like the Adaptronic I'm planning to purchase) you can wire the system to control each cylinders spark, which you can't really do with the old analog distributor system.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby speedmaster » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:12 am

yes, i was told the COP works with standalone ECU. im planning on getting the e420 as well.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:23 am

Sounds good man, good luck with your project. Mine's sitting on an engine stand awaiting parts for SQ, it's been way to long and it's still a few weeks yet.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby speedmaster » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:31 am

i will start a project on this COP thingy. hope it turns out ok. if u need the patch harness for adaptronic, i do sell them.

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby Army Fork » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:56 am

If I get the E420 it won't be until late this year, and I still have to buy an Evo yet for the winter. My jetta isn't coping with it anymore, about time I moved into something more interesting.
1984 SR5-GTS 20V ST/BT coupe.
- Stance GR+ Coilovers
- Mishimoto Cooling
- T3 adjustable 4-bar, Panhard, traction brackets, tension rods
- T3 Short shift
- Manual rack conversion
- Blacktop electronics

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Re: 20V: Alternative Ignition: COPs - batch fire

Postby speedmaster » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:39 pm

wow!!! nice one.