20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

NZMikey
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20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:34 pm

Hey all, so i am new to the forums but i have been using them to troubleshoot issues with my car for the past few years but I can not seem to find any help on the archive or here with the issue I am facing.

Basically, here is the problem I am facing:
The car has spark, air and fuel but it does not fire up.

After some testing, I found the car seems to be over-fueling. Upon this, I checked the fuel rail pressure and it seems to be spot on at 2.7 bar.
The timing is spot on. After removing the plugs and drying them, putting them back in, the car fires up for maybe 5 seconds, leaving a cloud of smoke.

Does anyone have any suggestions of what I should be testing for?

I have done the diagnostics test with the TE1 and E1 but everything seems normal.

Any and all help would be appreciated. I have done more tests and rule out other issues, however, at this time I am just over exhausted with this car and cannot think of them right now.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:03 pm

Hiya Mikey. Welcome to club4AG :)

1. Did you try starting with the throttles open (flood clear mode with
foot to the floor). Won't solve the problem but if the engine can run
for longer with a bunch of revs, then that might help to narrow the
possibilities down.

2. Did you look inside the ECU to see if you have leaking capacitors ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:11 pm

Hey Jondee86,

1. Currently it does not make a difference, it will not fire... except i did just notice something odd.. Every time i would stop trying trying to turn it over and put the key back into rested position, the car would fire for a split second. Now, when we did has it firing (Borrowed a mates iridium plugs) it seemed to keep going as long as i pulsed the throttle. If i floored it, it would die, it i let go, it would die.

2. The ECU has had leaky capacitors before, I had a bit of an issue with it once before, but since then i replaced the caps and cleaned up the tracks (They still appeared to be intact). From memory it fixed the issue i was having with it previously. We also got a ECU from a wreckers to test out in the car, and it did not make a difference (Problem with this, is they didnt open the ECU to check for leaky caps and they wont let me check..)


Do you happen to know what voltage is supposed to come from the injector pulse with the key on? I read somewhere 11.5v, but it seems im only getting 3v if i am lucky, or nothing. Another thing we noticed when we hooked a bulb up to the pulse, is it would glow brighter as the key is rested. Is this normal?

Also do the ECU year make a difference? Mine is a 92, but the ECU i tried out is from a 93.


Cheers for the reply. I would like to get this thing back on the road! Seems no matter how much i replace in this car, something new goes wrong!

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:17 pm

When the starter is cranking, the high current draw will pull the voltage
down on other circuits... lights, ignition and so on. As soon as you stop
cranking the system voltage will recover, and this will let your lights shine
a bit more brightly. Just some general comment :)

Testing injector pulse with an analog multimeter or test bulb will not give
you a decent result. The pulse width is too short, just a few milliseconds,
neither the meter or the bulb can react quickly enough. You might get
something on a digital meter depending on the sampling rate. What you
really need is a "noid light" that uses a LED to pick up the pulse. You can
buy one or even make it yourself with a few bits from Jaycar.

Thre should be a solid 12V to ground on the injector circuit when the key
is in the ON position, and that might drop 1 or 2 volts while cranking. If
the injector voltage does really drop to 3V while cranking, the injectors
would be struggling to open at all... leaving you very lean rather than over-
fuelling. Maybe the black smoke is just from unburned fuel building up in
the cylinders from prolonged cranking with no firing ?

To test the injector power supply, run a tempoary "test wire" from the
battery to the common injector feed wire, and try starting. That way you
know that you will have 12V to the injectors even if there is a fault in the
key-switched supply.

If that does not help, try running the test wire to the coil/igniter feed
wire. That will make sure you have 12V on the ignition side. Oh yeah...
and make sure you have a good solid ground from the engine to the
chassis to the battery negative.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:42 pm

----------------
Edited
----------------
Alright, im a dork. I was measuring the wrong side. I measures one of the wires at a constant 12.2v, while the second wire seems to discharge as soon as i would attempt to measure it.

It attempted to fire again after letting it sit a while, without throttle, but as soon as i put throttle on it, there was no chance. Even with foot floored.

I am wondering if it may be the airflow meter, but would that cause over-fueling?

(Just a but more info. I noticed over the past couple of years, the engine power has slowly been dropping off. I didnt think anything of it until i recently drove my mates 4AGE ST and it was miles more powerful than mine. Has something been slowly going wrong until it decided it had enough?)

---------------
Original
-------------

Just a short reply, the 3v is there when key is On, if i turn the key off and on, the voltage difference changes. Perhaps this is what is going wrong?

I will do some more testing while there is some light left in the sky, and if I cant give some more details tonight, I will reply tomorrow when i do.

We assume it is overfueling because the plugs come out quite wet. But if the pulse isnt at the right voltage, that just goes completely against everything we have found.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:36 pm

Have you checked to see if you have a split in the intake duct between
the AFM and the intake plenum ? A big vacuum leak lets un-metered air
into the plenum and will cause running problems.

Does pushing the flap inside the AFM open when the engine is running
make any difference ? Did you try holding the flap part open when cranking ?

Have you checked the compression ? What's the km's on the engine ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:14 pm

Sorry for the late reply mate, i didn't get a chance to look at it yesterday due to a bit of a hectic day.

KMs on engine, 265,000km, compression on each cylinder is around 155psi

Fuel Rail sits at 2.7bar

There is no split in the intake duct and is in pretty good condition.

As for the flap, testing with it closed, it fired maybe once, opening it, it fired 3 times, closing it again it seemed to fire ones per rotation, then completely dead after that (I can only assume she flooded out).
(All timed in the span of a 8 second crank).

The ECU I borrowed (Untested) I got permission to open up, to find a leaking capacitor, so I will be replacing the caps on that ECU and i will give it a go again.

Cheers,
NZMikey

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:29 am

Sure sounds like it is flooding on all four cylinders. Engine will run
(struggling) on two or three cylinders, so it must be all of them that
are quitting. Only other thing worth checking before you get the ECU
repaired, is to make sure that the water temp sensor for the ECU is
plugged in and the wires are not cut or broken anywhere.

I don't know for certain what happens if it is unplugged on a 20V, but
it could cause overfueling, so worth a look.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:42 am

Any idea how many ohms to earth the temp sensor wire should have?

It seems to be directly connected to earth, it seems off to me..

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:12 pm

You should be looking at the two-wire sensor at the back of the head
near the distributor. Measuring between the pins on the sensor with
the plug off, you should get around 2 - 3 kOhms (2000 - 3000 Ohms).
Neither of the pins should have continuity to ground.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:17 pm

My bad, i was checking the wrong sensor. Yeah, seems to be fine.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:47 pm

OK.. let us know how you get on with the repaired ECU.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:10 pm

Alright, well that is a no-go. Same bloody issue.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:10 pm

Does yours sound like this video ? Trying to start but not quite
making it ? Or does yours just crank with no sign of life at all ?

https://youtu.be/DCuQSWnVh6g

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:25 am

Geez, sounds pretty similar, but it will fire once in a while until it becomes flooded.

I will try the fuel pump relay tomorrow.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:16 am

Turn the key ON and then push the flap in the AFM open. That should
start the fuel pump... well it does on a 16V :) If it starts then the COR
is OK.

That almost firing but not quite catching sound is often caused by the
ignition timing being off. Have you been able to check the timing with
a timing light ? When cranking it should be around 10 degrees before
top dead centre on the scale down by the crank pulley. There should be
a notch on the rim of the crank pulley (put a dab of whiteout on it to
make the notch easier to see with the light).

The other thing mentioned in that writeup is a loose crank pulley. So
give the pulley a good heave left and right to make sure it is not moving
on the shaft, and check the pulley bolt is REAL tight.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:46 am

Ignition timing was tested on Tuesday and seemed to be spot on perfect.

I tested the crank pully too after a read up on the legacy forums, from what I can tell it is fine, but I will get under there and give it another go.

I will try to test that COR out today.

I appreciate your help on troubleshooting this with me jondee, this has left quite a few people scratching their heads.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:28 pm

If the engine has the basics... air, fuel and spark, it should be possible
to goad it into life even if it does not run well or stay running. There is
most likely a lot of gas in the cylinders by now, and usually a dry set of
plugs and crank with foot to the floor will get it running.

If that doesn't work, one of the basics is well out range... way too much
or too little fuel, or too much advance or retard on the spark. Also pays
to check all the really simple stuff too, just in case you had something
unplugged or unscrewed and forget to put it back. Igniter grounded,
distributor cap on correctly, TPS plugged in, ECU grounds bolted down
to wherever they bolt on a 20V, rag in the intake... that kind of thing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:00 pm

Alright, I re-adjusted the Ign timing, while doing this, i unplugged the pulse to the injectors so the engine wasn't flooding with fuel, after this I tested the COR and the pump runs when i put the flap.

After adjusting the timing I plugged the pulse back in and it fired up for maybe 5-15 seconds before it died out again and refused to fire up again.

Battery on charge once again, once it is fully charged up I will try the same thing (crank while pulse detached) to see if I get the same results.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:41 pm

NZMikey wrote:After adjusting the timing I plugged the pulse back in and it fired up for
maybe 5-15 seconds before it died out again and refused to fire up again.

Did you have the throttle open once it fired ? Like trying to rev the snot out
of it cold engine or not ? No good trying to get it to idle when it is playing up.
Get the thing revving if you can and keep it running like that until all the crap
is burned out... then try bringing it down to idle once there is some heat in
the engine.

Just because it runs at high rpm does not mean that there is not some problem
going on, but you will feel better after hearing it run for a while :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:54 pm

Yeah, thats not an option, as soon as i apply any throttle at all it cuts out.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:41 pm

OK... I'm running out of ideas here :?

But there is one thing you can check as it seems to cause all kinds of
weird sh*t when it is not set correctly... and that is the TPS. Basically
there is a switch inside the TPS that tells the ECU when the throttle is
closed and the engine is idling. The ECU then uses different fuel and
ignition settings than it does when the throttle is open and the engine
is running.

This sheet is for the BT but I'm sure the settings will be the same for the ST.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/assassin10000/misc/BT20VTPSpinoutsetup.jpg

When you have the 0.8mm feeler inserted the switch should be closed,
and when you have the 1.0mm feeler inserted the switch will be open.
Read the resistance between pins IDL and E2 and adjust the position of
the TPS if necessary until you have the correct readings.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby allencr » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:00 pm

What was touched since it was last running?
//
Fix the cam and/or ignition timing!

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:01 pm

That's the odd thing, nothing was touched. It went from running fine one day, sitting a couple days then on t running at all.


I will check the TPS out tomorrow.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:35 pm

I cant re-set the TPS at the moment, but, I did unplug the TPS and the car fired instantly, ran approx 1.5k rpm for near 10 seconds before cutting out. That is the best it has run during this entire time. Could this indicate the issue?

Scratch that, I tried to recreate the situation but it didn't give the same results. Im currently going through everything I did before.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:48 pm

When the engine cuts out, does it...
(a) stop quick and clean like you turned the key off. or
(b) kind of taper off running slower and slower with a bit of missing,
jumping, sniveling and generally messing about before it finally karks ?

Do you get a check engine light at any stage ?

If it is dying because of flooding, it is hard to imagine how that could happen :?
Basically, all the injectors would have to be staying open for far too long. And
on an AFM engine, I can't think of anything other than a borked ECU that could
cause that to happen. Any chance of borrowing a known good ECU to try ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:04 pm

I can't work out what I done, it changed entirely after having a play around with the TPS and timing, it actually ran fine for that moment and I haven't been able to reproduce what I done.

Upon looking at the timing afterwards, i noticed I am out by a tooth, so at the moment I am battling the crank pully off. What a crap job, seems to be stuck on there pretty well.

When I had it running nice for those 10 seconds, it died off clean, but, while it fires up as it is, it is coughing and spluttering to death.

Check engine light is fine and nothing abnormal there. I have been trying to get ahold of a 20v ST 4AGE engine since last week, but its located in masterton (The only person i know that has a 4AGE).

Just a question here, but according to this photo here:
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/te ... -gears.jpg

Is the center of the left gear supposed to have approx 10% movement in it? (After cranking, its rotated to the right, if I rotate the bolt counter-clockwise, it rotates with it approx 10% before locking into place)

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:05 pm

No need to take the crank pulley off. If you remove the centre cam belt cover
you will find a spring-loaded tensioner. If you compress that you can put a pin
thru the top (like a grenade) to hold it away from the belt.

Make sure you have the crank pulley set at zero (TDC #1 cylinder on the compression
stroke). Then slip the belt off the top pulleys one at a time and move them until the
dimples line up as shown in that pic. Slip the belt back on and release the tensioner.

The pulley on the left is the VVT pulley and it rotates as you said using oil pressure
from the engine when it is running. Try and put it back where it was before you
messed with it if you can.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby NZMikey » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:27 pm

I can't remove the mid-cover, it's locked in there behind the pully, I dont have an issue taking it apart and re-setting the timing belt, I wanted to get in behind there to look for an oil leak at some point anyway.

The VVT pully re-seats back to the default position when cranking, so it is already back to where it was.

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Re: 20V 4A-GE ST - Starting issue

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:35 am

Have you tried another coil ?

The engine will flood if there is too much fuel. But it could also flood
with the normal amount of fuel if there is not enough spark to set the
fuel alight. So it occurs to me that if your coil is failing, that could
give the symptoms that you describe.

You can check for a decent spark by pulling a plug, put it back in the
lead and ground the plug against a bolt that screws into the head or block.
Crank the engine and see if you get a nice fat blue spark regularly every
time. No weak orange spark or irregular sparking. Checking this after
dark with the lights out makes it easy to see the spark... in bright sun
the spark can be hard to see.

Pin to pin resistance on the coil should be around 0.5 Ohms and positive
pin to high voltage output should be around 15 kOhms.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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