4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Sultan
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4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby Sultan » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:18 pm

Hello,
I recently got a 4age 20v blacktop engine to put in my corolla e11, im not sure of the condition of the engine so I want to rebuild it first before swapping it in. I was planning on Tomie rods and pistons for the bottom end and keeping the head stock. My concern is will the stock ecu be able to handle the change in compression from the new Tomie pistons, will it be safe to drive around with the stock ecu or will I need an aftermarket ecu and then a tune if so what ecu should I get and where do I get a base map for it because since its going to be a newly overhauled engine its not very good to go straight to tuning without a break in period of about 1000-1500kms. I have no experience with toyota and I have little knowledge about this kind of stuff in general :roll: so im very sorry about the noob question.

Thanks and regards :D

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jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby jondee86 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:31 am

Hello and welcome to club4AG :)

I haven't been able to find any information on Tomei AE111 20V pistons, so I don't
know what compression ratio they will give on your engine. However, I can see that
Tomei gear does not come cheap, so I guess my question would be... What plans do
you have for this engine ?

The Blacktop already has a respectable 11:1 compression, and if you are using the
car as a daily, then I think it would be difficult to justify the expense of Tomei rods
and pistons. On the other hand, if you plan to race, rally or generally beat on the
engine with a lot of time at high rpm's, then upgraded hardware and a bit of extra
compression would be a good investment.

For a daily I would suggest upgrading the exhaust system, suspension and tires might
be a better investment. Either way, the factory ECU should be able handle a modest
bump in compression.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Sultan
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Location: California

Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby Sultan » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:35 am

Hello,
Thanks for your help jondee86,

Its going to be my daily car which would see weekend track days so I would think the engine will be taking some abuse, according to the Tomei pistons I also couldn't find a specific compression ratio but I know that their compression height is 30.50mm if that means anything.

Cheers

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jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby jondee86 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:04 pm

For its time, the 20V BT was highly optimised from the factory, which means that
extracting extra performance with bolt-on parts is not so easy. The factory ECU does
a good job if the engine remains stock which includes keeping the factory intake
plenum and velocity stacks. Running open throttles with straight velocity stacks
usually results in a lot of noise and lower performance at daily driver speeds.

If you have the factory plenum I would recommend using it if you can. Better yet
if you can use it with a factory cold air intake and filter box.

A few track days will not be a problem unless you like to sit on the rev limiter for
extended periods. The engine will stop making power short of the rev limit, so for
maximum performance you will be shifting around 7000rpm most of the time. When
you have had the engine in the car for a while and discovered what it can do in
stock form, you will have a better idea of what you want to do. More compression
is good, but you need better camshafts and a programmable ECU to fully exploit the
extra compression.

You of course can decide for yourself what you want to do with the engine. But if
it was my engine, I would get it stripped and inspected to see how much wear there
is on the bore and pistons. If the bore is in good condition, I would fit new rings,
bearings, gaskets and seals. Take a light cut off the head to clean it up and grind
the valves if they need doing. New OEM headgasket, timing belt and tensioner...
and I'd call that good to go :)

However, if the bore is worn to the point of needing to go to the first oversize, then
that would be the time to decide if you want to use the Tomei parts or new OEM parts.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:59 pm

Sultan wrote:Hello,
I recently got a 4age 20v blacktop engine to put in my corolla e11, im not sure of the condition of the engine so I want to rebuild it first before swapping it in. I was planning on Tomie rods and pistons for the bottom end and keeping the head stock. My concern is will the stock ecu be able to handle the change in compression from the new Tomie pistons, will it be safe to drive around with the stock ecu or will I need an aftermarket ecu and then a tune if so what ecu should I get and where do I get a base map for it because since its going to be a newly overhauled engine its not very good to go straight to tuning without a break in period of about 1000-1500kms. I have no experience with toyota and I have little knowledge about this kind of stuff in general :roll: so im very sorry about the noob question.

Thanks and regards :D


I don't think Tomei has made 4A pistons for several years now. When they did they were very expensive.

I have a number of other good piston options if you need them.
I also have a lot of customers running the Brian Crower Sportsman rods without issue.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/br ... tsman-rods

It sounds to me like you are trying to throw parts at the build in hopes that they will be better without really understanding how it all comes together.

The stock rods are quite capable. If you are planning on spinning much over 8500 the BT rods are a weak point but under that there isn't much reason to swap them out.
If you for some reason do need rods then you might as well upgrade to something like the ones I linked above as they are a little lighter and stronger. It's quite likely your stock rods would be fine though.
As Jondee said the BT is pretty well optimized in it's stock form. This means that the top end and the bottom end are well balanced for each other. You couldn't add much compression without adding more cam or more octane.

If you add a bigger cam this will allow you to also add more compression and you will want to do so to keep your low end power.

The best thing you could do is try to come up with a budget and power goal and we could try to help you bring those two together as well as possible.
Honestly with all the issues people have with the stock ECUs that might be the best place to start upgrading.

Sultan
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Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby Sultan » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:19 am

Hello, thanks for the reply

Well I have some basic understanding of how the parts might affect the engine power, I know that the extra compression will be quite useless unless the engine is tuned, the reason why I want more compression is that some time in the future maybe like a year from now I will tune the car but not now and I want to avoid the hassle of opening up the engine again to change the pistons, so I would rather have everything done now while the engine is out.
I was looking at some Toda pistons they are slightly cheaper than Tomie, their compression is 11.8:1, would this be okay and safe to run on with the stock ecu? I do like to drive hard and take my cars up to redline quite often so that's why I already ordered a new oil pump with Toda gears capable of supplying adequate oil pressure over 9000rpm's
When I do tune to car later down the road I want to see at least 8500rpms which is why I want a built bottom end now.
If the stock ecu cannot handle the 11.8:1 compression then I will just inspect the bore get new oem oversized pistons if needed or just change the rings if bore is still in good shape as suggested and keep the stock revlimiter.
So what do you guys think? 11.8 compression ratio on stock ecu? the head will be left stock for now until it gets tuned later on.

Once again thank you for your help. :)

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jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V Blacktop ecu help

Postby jondee86 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:49 pm

I can understand the attraction of shiny new parts, as I like them also :D

But there is one thing I have learned along the way. When you set out to build a high
performance engine, you cannot just select parts at random and hope for a great result.
As another member of this forum is fond of saying.... "Building a great engine takes
knowing the end... before you begin.
". This means that when you are planning new
parts and machine work, you need to have alreeady decided what your performance goals
are, and exactly how you are going to achieve those goals.

Compression ratio, cam timing, head design, ignition timing and fuel octane are just
some of the items that need to be considered. This article contains good information on
factors to be considered when raising compression...
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/0 ... r-squeeze/

Before you put your money down for the pistons and rods, have a talk with an the engine
builder/tuner that will be doing the work. Make sure that the modifications you are
planning for the bottom end are...
(a) a good foundation for the top end modifications you have in mind for later, and
(b) that you won't have a detonation problem using the fuel available at your local pumps.

You won't be happy if the ECU is going to pull timing whenever you get on the gas !!

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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