Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Bearsareprettycute.
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Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby Bearsareprettycute. » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Engine develop a cringy rod knock. Ive got the new to me block and crank. I would just like to know what parts are reusable from my old engine. Ive already lined up a machine shop to hot tank my block, deck it, bore it, check the block.and crank, polish crank, jet wash and plane my head aswell as checking existing valvetrain and pressing new pistons onto rods. I have never rebuilt an engine but ive got some help from my 86 guru cousin but as hes not always available what is some stuff i could start on with the block besides looking at its beauty?
Thanks

-Andrew

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Bearsareprettycute. wrote:Engine develop a cringy rod knock. Ive got the new to me block and crank. I would just like to know what parts are reusable from my old engine. Ive already lined up a machine shop to hot tank my block, deck it, bore it, check the block.and crank, polish crank, jet wash and plane my head aswell as checking existing valvetrain and pressing new pistons onto rods. I have never rebuilt an engine but ive got some help from my 86 guru cousin but as hes not always available what is some stuff i could start on with the block besides looking at its beauty?
Thanks

-Andrew


What are you trying to do? Performance build or just stock? I could never do the latter hehe. Too slow.
What is the donor motor? Personally I would go with a 7 rib block and larger rotating assembly.
You say pressing new pistons on to rods. This makes me think two things. 1. Are you actually buying new pistons? If so then I would upgrade to something with higher compression. 2. you have an early crank and rods. Personally I would go with the 42/20 rotating assembly and floating wristpin pistons. They are stronger, better and there are more shelf aftermarket options.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby Bearsareprettycute. » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:45 pm

It is my daily so im not looking for anything too crazy. The cars new heart is the exact same as the old, 16v bluetop. I was reading up on the Bill Sherwood page and started tossing around the idea of a pair of 256 cams. Just not sure how they'd run on a stock bluetop. I hear a lot about dumping lots of Doll-Hairs into 4age's but not seeing much gain. I imagine all the machine work will get a little more compression for a little more power.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby jinx » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:26 am

how much is the bluetop 'rebuild' gonna cost ? ....probably more than a gze swap (if u can still find one)?
bluetop will still be slow in a full weight daily.... and what about exhaust noise ?
best dollar gain is a gze or mild boost via an entry level turbo, on any healthy hi mile stock bluetop imo.
Driven sensibly, the stock 5spd (upgraded clutch obviosly) and diff should live. Waaaayyyy more fun and can be quiet too

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:20 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote: Performance build or just stock? I could never do the latter hehe.


How many have you actually built, or rebuilt????

Bearsareprettycute. wrote:Engine develop a cringy rod knock. Ive got the new to me block and crank. I would just like to know what parts are reusable from my old engine. Ive already lined up a machine shop to hot tank my block, deck it, bore it, check the block.and crank, polish crank, jet wash and plane my head aswell as checking existing valvetrain and pressing new pistons onto rods. I have never rebuilt an engine but ive got some help from my 86 guru cousin but as hes not always available what is some stuff i could start on with the block besides looking at its beauty?
Thanks

-Andrew

Bearsareprettycute. wrote:It is my daily so im not looking for anything too crazy. The cars new heart is the exact same as the old, 16v bluetop. I was reading up on the Bill Sherwood page and started tossing around the idea of a pair of 256 cams. Just not sure how they'd run on a stock bluetop. I hear a lot about dumping lots of Doll-Hairs into 4age's but not seeing much gain. I imagine all the machine work will get a little more compression for a little more power.


You won't know which parts you can reuse until you pull it apart and inspect things.... but if the engine hasn't actually come apart... the head, valves, and all the valvtrain bits are likely re-usable. Since you have a block and crank(pistons too?), those aren't needed from the old. You current piston MIGHT be re-usable, those will require inspection before reuse. Parts like bearings, rings, are wear items and all should be replaced with new when your shop does their work.

Before you dig too much into modifications, do you have to be concerned about emissions? Many performance parts will make passing emissions tests much more difficult.

A mild cam (256 type) can be used on an otherwise stock engine, but better performance is available with careful machining and a mild bump in compression. As a bit of proof of that, the smallport makes 15+ more horsepower on a "smaller" cam... BUT the compression is almost a full point higher smallport = 10.3, largeport(TVIS) = 9.4.

So at the stock stage, before you think about a cam alone change, you might look at a compression increase(with, or without a cam change), especially if you are already going into the engine anyway.
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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:54 pm

Bearsareprettycute. wrote:It is my daily so im not looking for anything too crazy. The cars new heart is the exact same as the old, 16v bluetop. I was reading up on the Bill Sherwood page and started tossing around the idea of a pair of 256 cams. Just not sure how they'd run on a stock bluetop. I hear a lot about dumping lots of Doll-Hairs into 4age's but not seeing much gain. I imagine all the machine work will get a little more compression for a little more power.

I suggest the 7 rib because it has more aftermarket support, floating wristpins and a fully balanced crank.

I really hate the fact that Bill Sherwoods modified page is still up and one of the most commonly referenced pages out there for performance 4AGE builds. There is a ton of misinformation on there. The rest is so outdated that at best you would end up with a build suited for the 90s.
His other pages are great and there is a ton of good and fairly accurate information on his stock and other pages it's just the modified page that drives me crazy.
You can run a much bigger than 256 cam on stock engine management although I have heard the earlier 1 wire O2 ECUs don't handle mods quite as readily as the later 4 wire ECUs. Personally I wouldn't waste my time or money with such a small cam.
As long as you pair your compression properly with your cam you can run a lot more cam and maintain your mid range.

The main reason the 4AGE has the reputation of taking a lot of money for a little performance is because very few people know how to build them properly. Most people will spend thousands on ITBs, exhaust systems, and a bunch of other glam mods that they think must add a ton of power then get depressed when they don't make impressive numbers.
With that said there is a very practical lmiit to building an NA 4A. You can gain around 50% power for around an additional $1000 over the cost of your standard rebuild. That is cams and pistons so if you were planning on buying pistons anyway the cost of my Arias high comp pistons is only a little more than OEM. To get them made in 18mm costs a little more but not much.
Add a set of cams and a couple other little things and you should be at least keeping up with if not outrunning stockish 20 valves.

Of course my vote is always turbo and if you want more power than above turbo is definitely the way to go. I consider GZE an expensive step sideways. Yeah it will get you to 150-160 hp pretty easy but if you want more than that you would be better off going turbo anyway so you might as well start on the better setup.
In your situation since you need a motor anyway you would be looking at the cost of the motor build plus probably a couple grand to turbo it so it would be more expensive but then the sky is pretty much the limit.
If you could ever want more than 140-160 WHP this is the route I would start planning for from the get go.
If you would be happy with somewhere up to around 160 WHP then it's just a matter of talking about where in there best fits your goals and your budget.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:56 pm

jinx wrote:how much is the bluetop 'rebuild' gonna cost ? ....probably more than a gze swap (if u can still find one)?


Likely true but with one you end up with a rebuilt motor and the other you are installing a 20-30 year old motor with unknown miles, unknown condition with a supercharger that can't be rebuilt and is about as efficient as a blacksmiths bellows.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby jinx » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:53 am

The only 4A 'build' I've done was nothing more than having a bluetop crank turned 010/010(or .25/.25). Left the bores untouched since ther was no wear ridge. Also took a chance with the oe rods, as the bearings were barely showing copper. Put it back together, new gasket.... ran flawless and lasted years.

I'd keep a tab on total rebuild costs, and only refresh what was needed
oldeskewltoy sweated the detais, concentrating on breathing and probably is as good as n.a street 16V will get imo.
Lots have posted their 16V camshaft feedback. Seach it, especially the old forums..... hachiroku.net too.
Try to score a ride in a cammed up 16V and see if that is what you desire in a daily. Most I've seen were too noisy for my tastes

Likely true but with one you end up with a rebuilt motor and the other you are installing a 20-30 year old motor with unknown miles, unknown condition

Yup, but that's the case with any swap. The vast majority work out, hence why swaps are so popular, still.
Heck, my last stock SR5 will get a 1988 uk starion 2.0L sohc - lol. My favourite motor
with a supercharger that can't be rebuilt and is about as efficient as a blacksmiths bellows.

You can always get a M62 from the junkyard, or go M90 one time
Why whine about SC12(roots) efficiency? Provides EXCELLENT performance for what it is;
Makes the 1.6 drive like a much bigger displacement motor, with instant torque. Is increased tq a bad thing nowadays ?
Enthusiatic GZE guys got their street SC12 cars down to 14.0-13.7sec 1/4s. Freakin amazing in my book!
Furthermore, look at what M90 done on miatas (or even 3.8L buicks, for that matter)
What other $150 used item, will drive and perfom like that ?

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:35 am

jinx wrote:The only 4A 'build' I've done was nothing more than having a bluetop crank turned 010/010(or .25/.25). Left the bores untouched since ther was no wear ridge. Also took a chance with the oe rods, as the bearings were barely showing copper. Put it back together, new gasket.... ran flawless and lasted years.

I'd keep a tab on total rebuild costs, and only refresh what was needed


That's the tricky part. Yeah if rod bores or valve guides check out in spec you should be fine reusing them. Something like bores I wouldn't even consider leaving untouched. Yeah it might work, but it could start burning oil or get low compression in 500 miles. It's just not worth it. Plus the best place to get power out of an NA 4A is compression so you might as well just plan on tossing the stock pistons and do it right.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:50 am

Yep... I edited this crap because at this point you are no longer helping OP.........
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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby Bearsareprettycute. » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:07 pm

Totally thought i had already repyled. Thanks oldeskewltoy.
SO, as much as i would love to do a S/C or Turbo build, I am a 17 year old on a grocery store budget ;) Just a couple newbie questions, will i have to buy a new gasket set or rebuild set if so any recommendations?

Thanks for the patience guys.

-Andrew

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:03 am

Bearsareprettycute. wrote:Totally thought i had already repyled. Thanks oldeskewltoy.
SO, as much as i would love to do a S/C or Turbo build, I am a 17 year old on a grocery store budget ;) Just a couple newbie questions, will i have to buy a new gasket set or rebuild set if so any recommendations?

Thanks for the patience guys.

-Andrew


Yes you will want a gasket kit. The OEM ones are quality but I hate giving Toyota money so I avoid it when possible.
Cometic is the main gasket maker that I trust and their gasket kits are good. If you use their metal headgasket though you will ideally want to machine the head and the deck and make sure that they both meet spec for flatness and smoothness.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/st ... om-end-kit
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/st ... ead-gasket

I have heard rumors that Ishino are the OEM manufacturer and that their gaskets are Identical to Toyota brand but I have not yet confirmed this myself.

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby davew7 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:31 am

Yup!! another vote for Cometic gaskets, but I would add the Fel-Por two gasket set for the oil pan/splash tray. It's the best thing since sliced bread for sealing a 25-30 year old oil pan, Vs OEM type RTV sealant. Fel-Pro P/N OS 30510 A
Davew7

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:14 am

Personally I believe FIPG is the absolute best and most reliable way to seal an oil pan. And most other components for that matter.
These little things make a huge difference though.
http://www.felpro-only.com/blog/snapups ... tion-snap/

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby SR85DET » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:23 pm

Sorry what is FIPG?

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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby Big T » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:34 pm

Form in place gasket. In other words, gasket goo. The Toyota black stuff is unreal but expensive.


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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:37 am

SR85DET wrote:Sorry what is FIPG?


Image
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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby allencr » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:47 pm

Whats the compression?


Bearsareprettycute. wrote:Engine develop a cringy rod knock.
I am a 17 year old on a grocery store budget


OK, then FIRST, WHAT IS 'cringy'????????
There have been LOTS of exhaust leaks, loose heat shields/cam pullys/crank pullys/accessory pullys and whateveer things that have been misdiagnosed as a rod knock on every forum, many from 86 guru cousin.
Are you Sure? Does it only happen on infrequent startups, or a certain RPM/temperature/gear/gas gauge/accessory/AC on/humidity, whatever range?
Good luck . Tried any magic in a can?
40 or 50 & STP might help if its slowly dying & not dead.
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Re: Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby Bearsareprettycute. » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:15 pm

Its was a disgusting drive home on the highway as i cannonballed home before the engine finally blew up, 2nd gear foot to the floor going 60.

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Tips for first rebuild of bluetop.

Postby SR85DET » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:40 pm

I bought my GTS with a bad crank pulley and it sounded as bad as a rod knock. Along with a distributor cap being installed wrong from P.O. it could have easily been misdiagnosed for a bad engine. Unfortunately I think I need a rebuild anyway for other reasons and that's what lead me to follow this thread. [emoji58]


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