FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

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jondee86
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FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:57 am

When I got my car it had the original TVIS engine installed. Other than being
pulled apart by the previous owner, cleaned, inspected and re-assembled, no
other work had been done on the engine. I only drove the car for a short while,
then pulled the TVIS engine for a smallport swap.

When stripping RWD parts off the TVIS engine I found that the crank pulley bolt
was not much more than finger tight. The pulley was loose on the crankshaft
(basically fell off) and the key had eaten part of the keyway. After getting a new
keyway cut in the old pulley, I found another better one, and put this one aside.

Image

More recently I wanted to use the TVIS engine to mockup an exhaust side alternator
setup. When I went to fit a different crank pulley the key was being awkward, so
I decided to remove the timing belt drive sprocket. This proved to be a bit of a
problem as that sprocket was ON THERE !!! No amount of levering with multiple
screwdrivers made any impression, and no 2 or 3 leg puller that I could find would
fit in the tight space, until I got this China made special :)

Image

Out of the packet it wouldn't fit, but an hour or two whittling down the ends and
eventually I had it working. Previously I had cut the end off the key and punched
it down into the keyway, just to make sure it wasn't stopping the sprocket from
moving. You can see it here just after the sprocket started to shift.

Image

And this is what was locking the sprocket onto the shaft... FRETTING CORROSION !!

Image

That orange stuff is not your ordinary surface rust, but a special kind of corrosion
not caused by moisture. When two close-fitting iron or steel surfaces are subject to
cyclic loading, or repeated small back and forward movements, fretting corrosion
can occur.

In this case the fact that the crank pulley bolt was not tightened properly, allowed
the crank pulley to move fractionally backwards and forwards on the shaft with each
firing stroke. That movement caused fretting between the key and the keyway, and
allowed the pulley to flog on the shaft, wearing the bore of the pulley. The sprocket
has much lower inertia, so being loose allowed the sprocket to "roll" on the shaft as
the tension of the timing belt pulled it from side to side with each turn of the crank.

After a few million cycles of load on, load off, fretting corrosion formed between the
two surfaces, locking the sprocket to the shaft. In dry situations you will usually find
orange rust powder, and in this case, multiple applications of penetrating oil turned
the powder to orange grease. This is the same orange grease that you will find when
you finally get that hard to pull SOB axle out !!

The only way to avoid fretting corrosion is to make sure there is no possibility of
movement between the surfaces, With a crank pulley, the bolt must be torqued to
specification. Unfortunately, when a press fit, shrink fit or high clamping load bolted
joint is not possible, no amount of anti-seize or moly grease will prevent fretting
corrosion.

Cheers... jondee86 (Yeah... new camera... WOOT :D )
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Rogue-AE95
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:52 am

Good info, thanks for sharing. That reminds me of the trouble I had a little while ago with removing the timing cog from a GZE:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14146&p=94266
'88 Corolla All-Trac x2 (manual, auto)

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jondee86
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:10 pm

Yeah... I was remembering back to the pics on that thread when I got stuck.
Eventually found the puller, only instead of having "drop forged" arms the one
I got had arms formed from steel strip (the Chinese always find some way of
making stuff cheaper). As a result the ends of the arms were way to big to
fit around the back of the sprocket, and it took a lot of whittling to get them
small enough to fit.

Hope I never have to use it again :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

jdm86gtz
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby jdm86gtz » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:45 am

I have drilled 2 M6 holes in them and using a bit of flat bar made up a quick puller for removing the pulley.
If I'm stripping an engine and you remove the thrust washers the oil pump will just clear the dowels and then put the crank,oil pump and timing pulley in a press and it moves easily.
Heat works also but you will need a new front crank seal.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:01 pm

jdm86gtz wrote:I have drilled 2 M6 holes in them........



http://www.hachiroku.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35411 - ;)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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jondee86
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:53 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: Faaaarrk... that is UGLY !!! Score one for fretting corrosion :D

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Rogue-AE95
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:32 pm

A little bit on-topic, I just picked up a 1994 7A-FE from a junkyard to do a 7A-GE build. I managed to get the crank pulley bolt off while removing the flywheel bolts... anyways once I had the crank pulley, timing covers, and timing belt off, I was able to simply pull the timing cog off by hand! I only gave a quick shot with PB Blaster to the cog before trying. There was some brownish-reddish residue under the cog, but it wasn't preventing removal of the cog.
'88 Corolla All-Trac x2 (manual, auto)

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jondee86
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:40 pm

Yes, if the crankshaft bolt has been torqued to spec, there should not be any
movement between the pulley or sprocket and the crankshaft. No mevement
means no fretting corrosion, and the pulley and sprocket should slide off the
crank just as easily as they slid on :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

NH-hillbilly
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Re: FRETTING CORROSION and getting that sprocket off...

Postby NH-hillbilly » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:37 pm

sometimes they aren't even worth trying to pull off. if you get to that point cut a groove into the sprocket with a cutoff disk and give it one good whack with a hammer/fat chisel. that will crack the pulley and release its death grip on the crank.