Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

anto16v
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Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Thu May 28, 2015 6:55 pm

Just wonder what upgrades/mods that can be done to squeeze more power [emoji2]

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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 28, 2015 7:59 pm

anto16v wrote:Just wonder what upgrades/mods that can be done to squeeze more power [emoji2]


Not much real cheap or easy.
What is your budget and goals?

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Fri May 29, 2015 4:52 am

Budget depends on parts etc
I hoping to get a stand alone ecu trumpets cams and a good manifold but wondering is there many gains to be had??

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat May 30, 2015 9:28 am

anto16v wrote:Budget depends on parts etc
I hoping to get a stand alone ecu trumpets cams and a good manifold but wondering is there many gains to be had??


Of course there are gains to be had. There are also always comprises. How much you are willing to spend will have a big influence. Of course budget depends on parts but a 4AGE build can range from $2,000 to $50,000 and naturally the gains will be fairly closely related.
Then there is longevity and driveability. You could build a 250 CHP NA or 800 HP turbo motor but that does not mean it will be best suited to your goals. The NA will be peaky, the turbo will be laggy. both will sacrifice a lot of reliability for that performance. For most of us a 180 WHP NA or 250 WHP turbo would be a lot better.

Your power goals will dictate which cams and which additional mods should be done. Pairing the proper components will result in a satisfying build. Throwing random parts at a build because they are shiny or you like the brand usually doesn't.

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anto16v
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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Sat May 30, 2015 9:30 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
anto16v wrote:Budget depends on parts etc
I hoping to get a stand alone ecu trumpets cams and a good manifold but wondering is there many gains to be had??


Of course there are gains to be had. There are also always comprises. How much you are willing to spend will have a big influence. Of course budget depends on parts but a 4AGE build can range from $2,000 to $50,000 and naturally the gains will be fairly closely related.
Then there is longevity and driveability. You could build a 250 CHP NA or 800 HP turbo motor but that does not mean it will be best suited to your goals. The NA will be peaky, the turbo will be laggy. both will sacrifice a lot of reliability for that performance. For most of us a 180 WHP NA or 250 WHP turbo would be a lot better.

Your power goals will dictate which cams and which additional mods should be done. Pairing the proper components will result in a satisfying build. Throwing random parts at a build because they are shiny or you like the brand usually doesn't.

I'd be Happy with 180 whp
What's needed to reach this figure??

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat May 30, 2015 10:08 am

I probably should have said 160 WHP as that's a pretty easily achieveable gain. I was typing too quick and thinking more CHP on the NA figure but didn't catch it. 180 WHP is getting into territory that is a good bit more expensive and less practical.

To get into 160 WHP territory you could do it without going into the bottom end. Something like a 264ish to 272ish cam and a thinner headgasket combined with optimizing intake, exhaust and tune should about get you there.
Port and Polish would help.

180 WHP you are looking at a good bit more work. Let's just call it 200 CHP because WHP will be less if you are longitudinal, more if you are transverse etc.
For 200 CHP you might be able to keep it under the 8500 RPM recommended ceiling for the oil pump and BT rods but you would be smart to at least upgrade to the Toda pump gears and aftermarket rods. This buys you a little more headroom.
Something like 12:1 to 12.5:1 compression would probably be a good target. I would say a cam in the range of a 304. Redline 8500-9000. Professional port and polish. Valve springs. Those are the big things I can think of but there are a lot of other small details.

Things that I wouldn't consider absolutely critical but a good idea. Oversized valves. Custom header designed for your build and RPM goals.

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat May 30, 2015 10:15 am

If you want over 160 WHP I would highly recommend looking into boost.

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Sun May 31, 2015 4:41 am

Would it not cost more to boost the engine for 160 whp then going na??

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 31, 2015 9:50 am

anto16v wrote:Would it not cost more to boost the engine for 160 whp then going na??


Depends on what route you took and how lucky you got. You might be able to get to 160 WHP with just cams and possibly light tweaks on a 20v. Above that turbo will start pulling ahead quickly as far as $/hp.

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Sun May 31, 2015 6:29 pm

Is it possible to give me a list of upgrades for cams ecu trumpets etc things like that so I know what I need to get

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 31, 2015 6:58 pm

anto16v wrote:Is it possible to give me a list of upgrades for cams ecu trumpets etc things like that so I know what I need to get


For which power level?

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Sun May 31, 2015 6:59 pm

160 whp

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:44 am

What octane fuel will you be using? Where are you located and do you know if they rate octan in RON, MON or PON?

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby anto16v » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:55 pm

Im located in Ireland and we use 95 octane ron over here

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Re: Upgrades for 4age 20v blacktop

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:01 pm

That looks to be about the same as our 91. That will limit the compression you can run by a little.

I always recommend running good knock monitoring so this will assume you either have engine management with good knock control or some alternative such as a detcan and or knock light.
With good engine management this cam paired with a .8mm or so headgasket should get you very close or just into 160 WHP territory.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/matrix-garage-265


Personally I would step up to my 272 cam. With a little more lift and a little more duration with the right supporting mods it should get you into the mid 160s to possibly mid 170s.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/matrix-garage-272

With this cam you could run a little more compression. You could shave the head a little but I prefer stepping up to an aftermarket forged piston. I have been working with Arias to optimize their 16v pistons. We haven't gotten around to the 20v yet but I could pull it together if someone wanted one. We will have them in 11.5:1 and with a thinner headgasket alone could get you over 12:1. I would probably aim for about 11.8 with that cam and your octane at least starting out. If you got the tune solid and had enough headroom you could swap out a thinner HG and increase it a little more.

As for ECU that depends on a lot of things. For example if there are any good ECUs made near you it might save you some money. It may also have more local support.
I am a fan of Megasquirt for it's price and DIY nature. I am also a fan of AEM. Their EMS-4 is quite capable and relatively affordable.
Haltech and link also have great reputations but I am less familiar with them.

For trumpets I would play with a few different lengths till you found what you liked.
I could 3D print you a few different lengths that you could tune on the dyno to find what worked best with your setup.

At this point Port and polish becomes more valuable. You could see if you can find any experts near you. Preferably with experience with the 4AGE. Or you could ship it over here but that's expensive. If that's not an option you could look up a bunch of the tutorials by oldskewltoy and take your best whack at it. In this case I would stay very conservative. Most of his stuff is on the 16v but many principles will be the same and the exhaust can use the same work. The intake shouldn't need a lot of work.

At this level the 20v header isn't a bad choice but there may be some gains to be had with a custom built header and proper sized exhaust.

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