Question about my build and using larger valves (Supertech).

Gregxster
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Question about my build and using larger valves (Supertech).

Postby Gregxster » Thu May 14, 2015 8:15 pm

I am building a 4age for street use and have a couple of questions. I have been in contact with Yoshi at Matrix Garage but would like some additional input.
I have a big port, 7-rib block, 1990 engine that I will be rebuilding with 10.5:1 CR pistons (Arias). I plan on using Tomei Poncams (264) or Matrix Garage 265 cams.

My question is... What are the best head modifications using NA, twin 40mm Weber DCOEs? Do the "oversize" Supertech valves require new seats? My machinist is concerned that most heads can only be enlarged "about 1mm or so"? New seats will require additional $$$ outlay and time. Are they worth the cost?

Thanks,
Gregg

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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 14, 2015 11:27 pm

I did forget to answer that question didn't I.
The Supertech valves don't need bigger seats.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 15, 2015 7:51 am

Gregxster wrote:I am building a 4age for street use and have a couple of questions. I have been in contact with Yoshi at Matrix Garage but would like some additional input.
I have a big port, 7-rib block, 1990 engine that I will be rebuilding with 10.5:1 CR pistons (Arias). I plan on using Tomei Poncams (264) or Matrix Garage 265 cams.

My question is... What are the best head modifications using NA, twin 40mm Weber DCOEs? Do the "oversize" Supertech valves require new seats? My machinist is concerned that most heads can only be enlarged "about 1mm or so"? New seats will require additional $$$ outlay and time. Are they worth the cost?

Thanks,
Gregg


Are the Supertech valves 1mm O/S or 2mm??

Be careful..... The use of O/S valves likely should have O/S seats installed as well - reason, the seat needs a certain amount of material to stay inside the head. Once you open the seat up to 80+% of the valves diameter, the stock seats can get thin, and can become dislodged.

Why are you thinking of running O/S valve with such a mild build?

A ported head, with careful concentration on key areas is a far better investment then just adding O/S valves
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Gregxster
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Gregxster » Fri May 15, 2015 9:35 am

Thanks OST,
Yoshi said the same thing... The cost out weighs the benefit.

I will just clean up the combustion chambers and give it a good 3-angle valve job.
Should I get new valves? How about upgraded springs? Should I get a complete set of Supertech valves (OEM size) with upgraded springs, retainers and seals?

Thanks,
Gregg

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 15, 2015 10:18 am

Gregxster wrote:Thanks OST,
Yoshi said the same thing... The cost out weighs the benefit.

I will just clean up the combustion chambers and give it a good 3-angle valve job.
Should I get new valves? How about upgraded springs? Should I get a complete set of Supertech valves (OEM size) with upgraded springs, retainers and seals?

Thanks,
Gregg


As to new valves... a performance based design while retaining the stock overall dimensions(30.5mm intake, 25.5mm exhaust - 6mm stems) will flow better then a stock valve. BUT.... this diminishes as you add a back cut to a stock valve. Depending on how much you want to spend/save, a new set of street/performance valves would likely run you about $15-$20 per intake, and $18-$25 per exhaust. That typically is too rich for the tiny gain, a 30 degree back cut on the stock intake valves will often times work just fine.

send me an email if you'd like a quote from me on rebuilding, and porting a head for you - oldeskewltoy@yahoo.com
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri May 15, 2015 10:45 am

Gregxster wrote:Thanks OST,
Yoshi said the same thing... The cost out weighs the benefit.

I will just clean up the combustion chambers and give it a good 3-angle valve job.
Should I get new valves? How about upgraded springs? Should I get a complete set of Supertech valves (OEM size) with upgraded springs, retainers and seals?

Thanks,
Gregg


Springs will depend on the cam. The poncams and my new 262 will both work on stock springs. My 265s are 8.7mm lift. people have run that big (and bigger) on stock springs but it's highly recommended you upgrade the springs on them.
Even on the smaller cams it's a good idea to upgrade to a mild spring just to know they are new and healthy. Otherwise at least test the springs per the FSM to make sure they are still in spec.

New valves depends on the condition of your valves and cost comparison. If they are healthy and it's cheaper to get them ground that's a fine option.
Whatever you do don't lap the valves after they and the seats have been ground. At the very most you can use the finest diamond compound you can find, apply bluing dye to the seat and valve, apply a little compound and give them a couple twist. This will confirm a good contact patch all the way around the valve and seat without messing up the grind. If the contact patch isn't good then I would take it back to the machinist.
Lapped valves make less power and don't last as long as a properly ground valve.

Gregxster
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Gregxster » Fri May 15, 2015 5:03 pm

OST, I just looked at the link in your signature. Quite impressed!! Now you got me thinking of wanting more and using your service!

OBTW... Here is a link to my build journal: http://www.triumphexp.com/journal/gregxster

It is a 1969 Triumph Spitfire with a 4age and T50 trans. Another member here (Ratranger) is doing the same, although he is keeping the fuel injection and keeping other things stock. My Tri-yota Spitfire is a fair weather roadster. No door windows, wipers, top, exterior handles removed. I live in the sunny, central coast of California!

Gregg

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 15, 2015 5:27 pm

Gregxster wrote:OST, I just looked at the link in your signature. Quite impressed!! Now you got me thinking of wanting more and using your service!

OBTW... Here is a link to my build journal: http://www.triumphexp.com/journal/gregxster

It is a 1969 Triumph Spitfire with a 4age and T50 trans. Another member here (Ratranger) is doing the same, although he is keeping the fuel injection and keeping other things stock. My Tri-yota Spitfire is a fair weather roadster. No door windows, wipers, top, exterior handles removed. I live in the sunny, central coast of California!

Gregg


very nice indeed... Its been most of a lifetime, but back in the mid/late 1970s, I worked for British Leyland.... :shock:

Also around that time I was driving a TVR Vixen S2 8-)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Gregxster » Sat May 16, 2015 8:18 am

Yoshi,
I would like to use your MG 265 cams. You mentioned upgraded valve springs. Are the single, Supertech springs sufficient? I would like to stay away from the higher rate double springs to reduce stress and wear on the valve train.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat May 16, 2015 12:26 pm

Gregxster wrote:Yoshi,
I would like to use your MG 265 cams. You mentioned upgraded valve springs. Are the single, Supertech springs sufficient? I would like to stay away from the higher rate double springs to reduce stress and wear on the valve train.


The Supertech single spring is more than enough. Unfortunately you need to buy their whole spring kit which is about twice what you need to spend on good springs.
As of two weeks ago I would have recommended the Toda springs and they are still a great choice.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/to ... ve-springs

I will now be selling TED springs for a little less though and they are also a great spring.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/te ... ve-springs

I may have found a cheaper OEM spring that might work as well but we still need to research this a little more.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby jdm86gtz » Sun May 17, 2015 5:39 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
I may have found a cheaper OEM spring that might work as well but we still need to research this a little more.



Course you did and with no assistance :roll:

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Ratranger » Sun May 17, 2015 6:59 am

Hey Gregxster, hows the spit coming? I'm interested to see how yours looks when its roadworthy.

What are you doing for the ignition?
4age bigport in a 73 spitfire

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Gregxster » Sun May 17, 2015 9:31 am

I am using the stock distributor maxed out at ~37degs with a MSD 6AL-2 programmable ignition controller. You can program in up to 20degs of retardation. Right now I have it programmed for max retard from 0-800rpm and fully out at 4000rpm. I will fine tune it when I get my engine rebuilt. Here is a link, that you may have seen, for setting up a carburated 4AGE: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=193

Congratulation on getting your Megasuirt system up and running! I don't have the technical knowledge for such a setup. Also, I like the clean, classic look of the DCOEs.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Ratranger » Sun May 17, 2015 10:34 am

I never really looked into the carb set ups. A big reason for the swap was the simplicity of factory efi. But then I couldn't leave well enough alone and started changing bits.

Sounds about right for the timing from everything I have seen.

The megasquirt board was my first time building anything like that. My tech knowledge on electronics is pretty low, but it's actually pretty simple to do. Tuning is the time consuming process. But I do like the look without a distributor.
4age bigport in a 73 spitfire

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 17, 2015 10:43 am

jdm86gtz wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
I may have found a cheaper OEM spring that might work as well but we still need to research this a little more.



Course you did and with no assistance :roll:

Lol sorry I didn't mean it like that. Just that I may have another option available soon but need to do more research.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 17, 2015 10:47 am

I have a 55 Studebaker but I am pretty over carbs. I have thought on many occasions of getting another carb so I could have one stock one and modifying the other one to have fuel injectors inside of the carb. Or maybe just hide the injectors under the manifold or something.
Going to try to sell it in the next couple months to make room for another AW11 for mockup and R&D so it doesn't matter much at this point but I think it would be interesting to hide fuel injectors on older cars to get the benefit of EFI but the look of carbs.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun May 17, 2015 1:55 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote: I think it would be interesting to hide fuel injectors on older cars to get the benefit of EFI but the look of carbs.


I've had a few similar thought... Many of the 50s, 60s, and early 70s British 4 cylinders came with twins.... so my thought was taking a pair of Stromberg, or SU carb housings and use them as throttle bodies.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby Ratranger » Sun May 17, 2015 6:05 pm

There is a company that makes a conversion for the stromberg carbs, but not the SU carbs. http://www.pattonmachine.com/TBI-Main.htm
4age bigport in a 73 spitfire

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun May 17, 2015 10:07 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
jdm86gtz wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
I may have found a cheaper OEM spring that might work as well but we still need to research this a little more.



Course you did and with no assistance :roll:

Lol sorry I didn't mean it like that. Just that I may have another option available soon but need to do more research.



you do that a lot... like chamber volume... and piston volumes.... it would be nice if you gave credit to those who provided the information
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun May 17, 2015 10:57 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
you do that a lot... like chamber volume... and piston volumes.... it would be nice if you gave credit to those who provided the information


In that case every time I talked about chamber volume I would have to credit you, Barry Mannon, Sam Q, about a dozen others who I have talked to or gotten numbers from and about 50 threads I have read and researched that had some good information and some bad information. I have also CCed a couple largeport heads, a silvertop head and a 20v head. I have then combined all this information into the best information I have available. If I had to give credit to every source that I have learned from over the last 20 years that applies to the thread then my posts would all be a mile long.

You want to talk about credit. You have constantly bagged on my piston designs. Then you come out with a "new" design that you claim is so much better than anything I have done yet it is nearly identical to my designs. Hmm. Not that I ever really gave a crap about that till you want me to give you credit any time I talk about basic and commonly discussed and accepted specs for the 4AGE.
Tue Jul 15, 2014
Image

May 23, 2014
Image

May 23, 2014
Image
Note my dates are when I uploaded the actual pistons to my facebook page. The basic Supertech design had been around since I designed mr2tailbreakers pistons long before that and the CP high comp piston had been drawn up long before and completed by that date.
I didn't post mr2tailbreakers pistons because Wiseco botched the design and in a hurry I had them send the pistons straight to him not knowing how closely you had to baby sit piston makers. I didn't catch the error until much later. My fault but you live you learn.

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon May 18, 2015 6:58 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
You want to talk about credit. You have constantly bagged on my piston designs.


again... I'm guessing you have Alzheimer.... "your" pistons were designed with my help... remember? The Supertech piston guys used my samples to learn what an original piston was...... You and I were consulting on this and I offered you my long time experience... it was not taken and so now you have a piston(Supertech) that you must customize the rod to make it fit... really, you must modify the rod just to fit a #^%#$&^ piston?

Once your design was shown to be crap... I had my piston designed....

Again you show your ignorance... "my" piston it is not..... It is a TRD design! All I did was change a few tiny things, and make it a full round skirt. So as to when "my" piston was designed... likely when you were in diapers :lol:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Question about my build and using larger valves (Superte

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon May 18, 2015 10:33 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
You want to talk about credit. You have constantly bagged on my piston designs.


again... I'm guessing you have Alzheimer.... "your" pistons were designed with my help... remember? The Supertech piston guys used my samples to learn what an original piston was...... You and I were consulting on this and I offered you my long time experience... it was not taken and so now you have a piston(Supertech) that you must customize the rod to make it fit... really, you must modify the rod just to fit a #^%#$&^ piston?

Once your design was shown to be crap... I had my piston designed....

Again you show your ignorance... "my" piston it is not..... It is a TRD design! All I did was change a few tiny things, and make it a full round skirt. So as to when "my" piston was designed... likely when you were in diapers :lol:



Lol whatever. Talk about Alzheimers.
I had my piston design long before it went to Supertech. They just wanted another piston to confirm things like compression height and valve spacing and whatnot. It should be obvious that none of my pistons resemble the smallport piston that you sent them and I never even had my hands on. I designed my pistons off the combustion chamber. Not the pistons.
It should also be noted that the piston that doesn't fit is their original 18mm piston and when I learned it didn't fit and that they weren't interested in changing the design is when I started looking for someone else to make my design.
I'm curious what you mean when you say my design was shown to be crap. If you are talking about mr2tailbreakers build then you aren't talking about my design. You are talking about Wisecos demented interpretation of my piston and again that was because at that point I expected I could hand a professional piston manufacturer a model and drawing and that they would be able to make it. Even then that piston made dynos that very few budget builds have ever rivaled, lasted 20k miles with much of that being on a track and was run with aggressive timing and some known detonation. It's very likely a degree or two less timing would have gotten a lot more life out of that build. I also never was a fan of the stethascope detcan he was using. Better than nothing but it would be interesting to see how he would have done with something better.

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