Advance on distributor ?

[PDB]

Been tinkering today with my setup, could anyone tell me what the maximum advance is using the original distributor and timing marks ?

My engine seems to run best with the distributor fully anti-clockwise, maximum advance !

[totta crolla]

Been tinkering today with my setup, could anyone tell me what the maximum advance is using the original distributor and timing marks ?

My engine seems to run best with the distributor fully anti-clockwise, maximum advance !

If you are setting the timing then you will be doing it at idle and the engine will run best at idle at max advance, under load will be a different story however.
You are best off setting to stock specs if the engine is stock.
If the engine is modified then timing is best set on a dyno.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Been tinkering today with my setup, could anyone tell me what the maximum advance is using the original distributor and timing marks ?

My engine seems to run best with the distributor fully anti-clockwise, maximum advance !

I am confused by the question.
Are you asking what your timing is when it's fully advanced? If so you should be checking with a timing light and not asking us.
More importantly you shouldn't be tuning ignition timing by feel.
If you are mostly stock just set it to the factory specs. If you wanted to try anything other than factory specs then you would really want to do so on a dyno and with a detcan to make sure you aren't causing detonation and harming your motor.
It is very unlikely that you will be hitting MBT with full advance. It it quite possible to advance it past that point and loose power due to too much advance. It is also possible to get detonation and damage your motor.

If you or anyone else has ever taken the distributor out checking timing with a light will also confirm the dizzy is on the right tooth. If not then it will run much better maxed all the way in one direction but it will run much better still if it's stabbed on the right tooth.

[PDB]

Running Poncams using hyperpak and yamaha R1 carbs.

https://vimeo.com/118353735
Click to view video

It's booked in for dyno tuning in 2 weeks, just trying to get a base setting for them.

Hyperpak requires 15 degrees BTC static timing, which is fully anti-clockwise without engine running on my set-up !

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Lol a tip for the future, if your motor isn't relatively stock you should start by describing your setup.

I still don't understand the original question. If this module calls for 15 deg then set it to 15 deg.

I also don't understand how you would check timing without the engine running.

[totta crolla]

Ok I understand the issue as I had almost exactly the same thing with some aftermarket cams.
It is possible as Yoshi says, you could be a tooth out on the distributor but if yours is like mine moving to the next tooth ensured it was too far retarded at full adjustment.
So what to do if this is the case ?
You need to remove the drive cog on the distributor and re-fit it 180 degrees around.
My timing is now right in the middle of the adjustment.
Re-fitting the distributor is a little more difficult as you no longer have the 'dimple' to align it with.

[jondee86]

could anyone tell me what the maximum advance is using the
original distributor and timing marks ?

The standard setting for the distributor on a stock 16V 4AGE is 10 deg BTDC
and this is obtained at about mid-adjustment on a stock engine.

Some simple calculations indicate that the range of adjustment should be
around plus or minus 20 deg starting from the midpoint in the adjustment.
Engine will run with 30 deg of advance, but I wouldn't recommend driving it !!

I've had the same issue as totta where I couldn't get the timing correct no
matter what I tried. Never thought about moving the cog... just put up with
bad timing until I changed the cams again.

Cheers... jondee86

[PDB]

Ok I understand the issue as I had almost exactly the same thing with some aftermarket cams.
It is possible as Yoshi says, you could be a tooth out on the distributor but if yours is like mine moving to the next tooth ensured it was too far retarded at full adjustment.
So what to do if this is the case ?
You need to remove the drive cog on the distributor and re-fit it 180 degrees around.
My timing is now right in the middle of the adjustment.
Re-fitting the distributor is a little more difficult as you no longer have the 'dimple' to align it with.

Interesting, will try this as I have a spare distributor

[totta crolla]

There are some guides available that show you how to replace the oil seals in the distributor and within the guide there is a procedure for removing the pin of the drive gear, I seem to remember drilling the end of the pin out before tapping it through.
You can use a generic roll pin to replace it.
Make sure you mark the gear as you don't want to put it back in the same place. Been there, done that !

[PDB]

Were you using after market cams ? I am and wonder if that's the issue, the gear on the cam being slightly wrong compared to a factory shaft ? I'm using TOMEI Poncam's

[totta crolla]

Were you using after market cams ? I am and wonder if that's the issue, the gear on the cam being slightly wrong compared to a factory shaft ? I'm using TOMEI Poncam's

Yes Catcams.

[PDB]

Interesting .....

Well I've got the spare distributor apart, just need to press out the pin, so will take it too my mate garage tomorrow. Thanks for the tip about the dimple, I've made a mark on the shaft so will still be able to allign easily when refitting.

Shall let you know results later in the week.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Interesting .....

Well I've got the spare distributor apart, just need to press out the pin, so will take it too my mate garage tomorrow. Thanks for the tip about the dimple, I've made a mark on the shaft so will still be able to allign easily when refitting.

Shall let you know results later in the week.

So you already tried different teeth on the stock distributor and with a timing light one tooth was too far retarded and one was too far advanced?

[totta crolla]

Interesting .....

Well I've got the spare distributor apart, just need to press out the pin, so will take it too my mate garage tomorrow. Thanks for the tip about the dimple, I've made a mark on the shaft so will still be able to allign easily when refitting.

Shall let you know results later in the week.

So you already tried different teeth on the stock distributor and with a timing light one tooth was too far retarded and one was too far advanced?

Yes that was the problem with my Catcams, the ideal timing was exactly at the point that I could'nt get to with the distributor.

[Rogue-AE95]

I don't know much about engine timing and dizzy placement. But could the two "ears" be cut (top of one, bottom of other) in order allow the distributor to be moved beyond its normal placement? Or just open up the "paths" that the two bolts sit within?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Interesting .....

Well I've got the spare distributor apart, just need to press out the pin, so will take it too my mate garage tomorrow. Thanks for the tip about the dimple, I've made a mark on the shaft so will still be able to allign easily when refitting.

Shall let you know results later in the week.

So you already tried different teeth on the stock distributor and with a timing light one tooth was too far retarded and one was too far advanced?

Yes that was the problem with my Catcams, the ideal timing was exactly at the point that I could'nt get to with the distributor.

I was asking the OP though because he never said anything about not being able to set the timing or trying to restab it properly.
All he said was that the timing had to be fully advanced to get his desired timing without the engine running which makes zero sense because the car has to be running to time it.

[PDB]

Left info out as I was trying to keep it simple.

I'm using a hyperpak to control the ignition timing http://www.erd.co.nz/products/toyota.html

It's a simple cost effective solution for the set up I'm using.

The hyperpak instructions say that the STATIC timing needs to be at 15degrees BTC. That's the point of reference it needs, then it controls the advance and retard whilst the engine is running.

For me to get to 15 DBTC static timing I've had to position dizzy fully anti-clockwise. Have tried a tooth either way and as totta crolla has said, either is not quite right.

By moving the gear 180 degrees on the shaft of the dizzy it should bring my point of adjustment back into range.

If you've not heard of static timing before (I hadn't either) give it a google.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

That is interesting but everything I read on it is related to points based distributors.
In our cars the ECU actually controls the spark event.
Does this module replace the ECU then? And if so it is now sending the the signal that lights the light?
You said that you were able to hit the target 15 deg with it turned all the way one way. Isn't this mission complete?

[PDB]

The engine is in a toyota Starlet. I'm not running a ECU as such, the hyperpak is all there is.

Yes I can run with the distributor at max advance but that doesn't leave me any room for tuning when I get to the dyno. I want the dyno guys to be able to do there best with what I've brought to them, by me having the dizzy modded as discussed the potential for further tweeking of the ignition will be possible, should it be required.

I just like things to be right.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

The engine is in a toyota Starlet. I'm not running a ECU as such, the hyperpak is all there is.

Yes I can run with the distributor at max advance but that doesn't leave me any room for tuning when I get to the dyno. I want the dyno guys to be able to do there best with what I've brought to them, by me having the dizzy modded as discussed the potential for further tweeking of the ignition will be possible, should it be required.

I just like things to be right.

Sorry, I assumed the hyperpack was a tunable ignition module like megajolt or something.
So when all is said and done you will still only be able to tune base timing?
Seems like so much work to do what the stock ECU already did.

[PDB]

No, as I have adjustable pulleys I can optimise the timing. Where's the fun in using stock ECU.

It's my car, and it's like no other, I think this is the reason we all modify/tune our toys

[yoshimitsuspeed]

No, as I have adjustable pulleys I can optimise the timing.

You are talking about cam timing. I am talking about ignition timing.
Does this module advance timing? Or are you running fixed timing? If so you realize how much performance you are leaving on the table right?
Even if it runs a preset advance you will not be able to optimize your timing curve.

I will never understand downgrading from EFI to carbs but if you did then at least something like this would allow you to optimize your ignition timing curve.
http://www.autosportlabs.com/product/megajolte/

It's my car, and it's like no other, I think this is the reason we all modify/tune our toys

Sure but the goal should be to make it better than it was right?

[PDB]

I wanted Yamaha R1 carbs as they sound the nuts..... And I had to give up my R1 due to circumstances beyond my control.

It keeps a small bit of biking in my life.

The hyperpak does advance/retard the timing, it's not fixed, it comes pre mapped as such so cannot be altered.

The Starlet is my piece of Retro fun.

I did look at the mega jolt, and it is very good, most likely a lot better too. My best mate has a MK2 lotus cortina replica, and were in the process of fitting a 4age into his car too, he had the hyperpak and said I can have it, using me as a guinea pig lol

It was free, and it works for me. Let's see how it goes on the dyno.

[jondee86]

It keeps a small bit of biking in my life... The Starlet is my piece of Retro fun.

And fun is really the key word Life was never intended to be serious !!
So we all need to do some things purely for fun... they don't need to make sense,
turn a profit or please anyone but ourselves. Playing with cars is therapeutic. You
learn skills, patience, new swear words and meet nice people. If everyone had an
old car to play with, there would be less wars and more smiling faces

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Why have you got a row of cup holders in your side skirts ?

[PDB]

Lol, my wife calls them bullet holes

[oldeskewltoy]

First... I begin and verify TDC. It is common for the outer part of the crank pulley(that carry the timing marks) to shift on the inside of the crank pulley. So... get yourself a piston stop and VERIFY your TDC.

At this point you might check your cam timing too.....

Now once you know TDC, rotate the engine to 15 degrees before TDC. Now, take the distributor, remove the cap, but mark the side of the distributor @ #1 with a marker. I like to have a stud sticking out from either of the distributor hold downs, it helps me position the distributor body. With the engine @ 15 degrees, try and slip the distributor in so the rotor lines up with the mark on the side. You may need to take a few stabs at it. Once you feel you are close, and have adjustment to either side of the stud, tighten the distributor down, start it, and make any fine adjustment to 15 degrees.


sweet Starlet

[PDB]

Thanks, the 180 rotation of the distributor gear worked a treat. Great tip [emoji106]