Newbie Here

[pteroduck]

Hi guys, I'm new to 4a-ge/ Club4ag!
I'm kinda new to the car scene and would like some input/advice on building my car.

I plan on using the 4A, but I don't know which to pick. I've read over the FAQ for the engine, but I may go turbo.

I want your professional inputs when it comes to picking an engine, turboing it, pros and cons of turbo, and chassis I could use besides the AE86 and MR2 as I see they are quite common on here. If the car has flip up head lights, thats even better. I'm a beginner, on a budget and still in college so please keep that in mind. With that, please drown me in information, I may have already read it on another forum elsewhere but please write your input here, thanks!

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Hi guys, I'm new to 4a-ge/ Club4ag!
I'm kinda new to the car scene and would like some input/advice on building my car.

I plan on using the 4A, but I don't know which to pick. I've read over the FAQ for the engine, but I may go turbo.

I want your professional inputs when it comes to picking an engine, turboing it, pros and cons of turbo, and chassis I could use besides the AE86 and MR2 as I see they are quite common on here. If the car has flip up head lights, thats even better. I'm a beginner, on a budget and still in college so please keep that in mind. With that, please drown me in information, I may have already read it on another forum elsewhere but please write your input here, thanks!

With that little information any input that any of us give you will be our opinions with our likes and our goals.

You would really want to give as much detail on your budget, your goals, your preferences etc so that we can make suggestions that would be relevant to you.

This will get you started on understanding what's involved in going turbo but it's just a beginning. You will want to do a lot more research.
http://matrixgarage.com/content/yoshimi ... oing-4a-ge

[pteroduck]

Hello,

Thanks for the response, and I just realized how ambiguous I was lol.
My budget is about 3500-4000 dollars but may go up or down depending on the necessity of items as well as how money starts to pick up.
My goal is for it to be a decent track car as well as be quick on the pedal for street drag races( street legal in Texas).
I'd prefer a light chassis so the car wouldn't have to put a ton of power out, fuel efficiency would be nice but isn't necessary, and I'm willing/love to go with an old school. Flip up lights are a must, and I'm probably going to rip out the internals for a roll cage as well as other things when it becomes necessary. I like handling around corners and ease of maintenance of that counts for anything.

[jondee86]

I'm kinda new to the car scene and would like some input/advice on building my car.

Hiya... as you know, this site is dedicated to the 4AG engine series, and in
particular, the earlier AE86 and AW11 MR2 series cars. These are both great
cars, but they do have a drawback in that they are now more than 25 years old.

After 25 years most have clocked up big miles and have deteriorated from
wear, damage and neglect. Neither car came from the factory with a turbo,
although the MR2 had a supercharged version. So if you are thinking that
you would like a turbo car, you need to be prepared for a lot of DIY. An old
car will most likely require rust repairs and general maintenace, plus all the
engine/mechanical modifications required to install a turbo system.

There are a couple of other options. You could look at buying a project car
where all the hard work has been done by someone else, or you could widen
your search to include later model factory turbo cars from other manufacturers.
Really, what I'm saying is be realistic. As said above, you need to consider
how much time/money you want to invest and what you hope to achieve.

If you need a car to daily while you finish school and get your life organised,
you might be better thinking cheap/reliable rather than fast/pussy magnet

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

OK... should have checked for updates before I clicked SUBMIT

You obviously have given the question more thought than your first post
indicated, so what I said is not for you. But it might be helpful to someone
else who is just starting out, so I'll leave it be.

Cheers... jondee86

[pteroduck]

I'm kinda new to the car scene and would like some input/advice on building my car.

Hiya... as you know, this site is dedicated to the 4AG engine series, and in
particular, the earlier AE86 and AW11 MR2 series cars. These are both great
cars, but they do have a drawback in that they are now more than 25 years old.

After 25 years most have clocked up big miles and have deteriorated from
wear, damage and neglect. Neither car came from the factory with a turbo,
although the MR2 had a supercharged version. So if you are thinking that
you would like a turbo car, you need to be prepared for a lot of DIY. An old
car will most likely require rust repairs and general maintenace, plus all the
engine/mechanical modifications required to install a turbo system.

There are a couple of other options. You could look at buying a project car
where all the hard work has been done by someone else, or you could widen
your search to include later model factory turbo cars from other manufacturers.
Really, what I'm saying is be realistic. As said above, you need to consider
how much time/money you want to invest and what you hope to achieve.

If you need a car to daily while you finish school and get your life organised,
you might be better thinking cheap/reliable rather than fast/pussy magnet

Cheers... jondee86

Approximately how much DIY? Just looking over forum posts and other places seem like it's going to be a buttload of work that would need to be done. The general maintenance and rust repairs I don't mind. I knew that when I would be picking up an old car to work on. Reading over Yoshi's article for a beginner's guide to turboing, it will be alot of work, so maybe a NA would be better for me. I considered a project car but that would take out all the fun of working on a car that you did by hand. Plus, they're generally too new looking for my taste.

In terms of searching for later model factory turbo cars, does that mean a car that already had a turbo system installed before and I just do a simple engine swap? My budget is small so DIY is already written all over, and time will be put in when necessary but I can always grab spare hands to get help with. This is going to be my project/weekend car. I currently drive a super reliable E160 Corolla so no problems there.

[jondee86]

You could research 3SGTE into AE86 conversions, but that would be
a crap load of work compared to just getting a 4AGZE engine, tossing
the supercharger and fitting a turbo. Yoshi has all the info you need
for the GZE conversion. I would prefer it over a 4AGE (bluetop/bigport)
turbo conversion, as it has a bit more headroom/room for error

A GZE with a turbo will give you 250hp all day, and that is plenty
enough power to have a lot of fun !! You will find a ton of information
on the interwebz about this conversion.

The factory turbo option I referred to was meaning the whole car as
in Celica GT4, Subaru WRX or Nissan 180SX etc. I was talking with a
rally guy a couple of days ago who wrecked his 4AGE Starlet. Now he
has a 300hp WRX and is converting it to RWD only for rallying. Modern
car with all the performance parts readily available. Not a Toyota, but
an ideal weapon for his purpose.

Cheers... jondee86

[InitialB]

With the $3000-4000 price range you set for modifications I would just spend that buying some kind of bigger power engine. Like Jondee said, the 3SGE BEAMS or 3SGTE are good options. I also love to recommend the 13B-RE/REW just because they are small and light with the ability to make a lot of power (Also I'm a sucker for rotary sounds).

[pteroduck]

You could research 3SGTE into AE86 conversions, but that would be
a crap load of work compared to just getting a 4AGZE engine, tossing
the supercharger and fitting a turbo. Yoshi has all the info you need
for the GZE conversion. I would prefer it over a 4AGE (bluetop/bigport)
turbo conversion, as it has a bit more headroom/room for error

A GZE with a turbo will give you 250hp all day, and that is plenty
enough power to have a lot of fun !! You will find a ton of information
on the interwebz about this conversion.

The factory turbo option I referred to was meaning the whole car as
in Celica GT4, Subaru WRX or Nissan 180SX etc. I was talking with a
rally guy a couple of days ago who wrecked his 4AGE Starlet. Now he
has a 300hp WRX and is converting it to RWD only for rallying. Modern
car with all the performance parts readily available. Not a Toyota, but
an ideal weapon for his purpose.

Cheers... jondee86

I wish, that could is just too much. The power output is awesome though. After the turbo, the 4A-GZE wouldn't have any more direction to modify would it? The process of becoming a 4A-GZE to a 4A-GTE would be the big step and anything after that would be nothing to brag about correct? The 1.6L would probably be decent power but I'd kind of like expandability, but that may be a bit much for my budget if I'm assuming so. For the budget, how much will it put a dent in it for the turbo? If I do use this option, I may consider rebuilding a turbo for it as well. Are you talking just getting a modern car with turbo already?

[jondee86]

Are you talking just getting a modern car with turbo already?

Yes... all the cars I referred to are factory turbo, and there will be other
USDM cars as well. A turbo upgrade and some larger injectors can produce
good results, and all the necessary oil, water and air plumbing is already in
place from the factory.

I'm not familiar with the USDM market for older 4-cylinder turbo cars, but
I'm sure there are a few around... Dodge Neon turbo is one that pops up

Cheers... jondee86

[pteroduck]

With the $3000-4000 price range you set for modifications I would just spend that buying some kind of bigger power engine. Like Jondee said, the 3SGE BEAMS or 3SGTE are good options. I also love to recommend the 13B-RE/REW just because they are small and light with the ability to make a lot of power (Also I'm a sucker for rotary sounds).

I will do quite a bit of research for that when it comes to rotary engines because they put out lots of power but I heard theyre a pain to work with. You're probably right, I could just get those engines then probably modify that and keep it NA and turbo later on. The reason I picked the 4A engine was because it seems to be popular for RWD and has decent power for the price.

[pteroduck]

Are you talking just getting a modern car with turbo already?

Yes... all the cars I referred to are factory turbo, and there will be other
USDM cars as well. A turbo upgrade and some larger injectors can produce
good results, and all the necessary oil, water and air plumbing is already in
place from the factory.

I'm not familiar with the USDM market for older 4-cylinder turbo cars, but
I'm sure there are a few around... Dodge Neon turbo is one that pops up

Cheers... jondee86

I wonder if it's really worth the turbo versus a strong four cylinder that puts on 200 before a turbo. The 3SGE/3SGTE seems like it may or may not be less work because of all the turbo work and what not. It seems that if I were to get the 4A-GE, it may cost me more than my budget and that's without the chassis work and engine rebuilding fees.

[jondee86]

I'd suggest that to take a step back and re-evaluate your budget versus
what you hope to achieve. First you have to figure the cost of buying the
car or shell that you want to build. See what is available in your area, and
in what kind of cost/condition. A non-runner or unfinished project might
be an afforadable option. The AE86 runs at a premium because of current
poularity, so the AW11 could be your best bet.

Then you need to settle on the engine. Here I would suggest you stay with
one or other version of the 4AGE. You know that it will fit, and with minor
modifications, will be enough to get you mobile and have some fun. Later,
you can look at investing in a turbo setup for more grunt.

One of the biggest failings with projects is biting off more than you can
chew. Going for the ultimate build first up before you have developed the
necessary skills, often ends in frustration and disappointment when you
run out of cash and the car is still not running = LOSE

On the other hand, completing Stage One which is just to get a basically
stock car driving on the road and within budget = WIN

Then you move on to Stage Two...

Cheers... jondee86

[pteroduck]

I'd suggest that to take a step back and re-evaluate your budget versus
what you hope to achieve. First you have to figure the cost of buying the
car or shell that you want to build. See what is available in your area, and
in what kind of cost/condition. A non-runner or unfinished project might
be an afforadable option. The AE86 runs at a premium because of current
poularity, so the AW11 could be your best bet.

Then you need to settle on the engine. Here I would suggest you stay with
one or other version of the 4AGE. You know that it will fit, and with minor
modifications, will be enough to get you mobile and have some fun. Later,
you can look at investing in a turbo setup for more grunt.

One of the biggest failings with projects is biting off more than you can
chew. Going for the ultimate build first up before you have developed the
necessary skills, often ends in frustration and disappointment when you
run out of cash and the car is still not running = LOSE

On the other hand, completing Stage One which is just to get a basically
stock car driving on the road and within budget = WIN

Then you move on to Stage Two...

Cheers... jondee86

Yeah, you're probably right on getting that AW11/MR2 chassis. They're already housing the 4A engine so it wont be that much more trouble to get a new one to get mounted in them. I'll probably dig around for a MR2 in a non-crashed situation, what do you mean by a non-runner or a unfinished project? As in someone selling theirs because they didn't finish? I can't afford the AE86 currently because they are quite expensive so you're right on the money for that. I probably will settle on the 4A engine but with the figures I want will probably be hard but you're right on the money when you say it needs to be running first. Having it cost a ton without it running will be a pain. I'll probably be rebuilding it and replacing the internals with aftermarkets to make sure it doesn't blow on me. I sort of want a turbo to begin with but it seems like it may take up too many problems for a beginner. Thanks for the advice man.

Edit: The budget does not include the car/chassis. I have a separate budget for the car and aesthetics and DIY items for it.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Hello,

Thanks for the response, and I just realized how ambiguous I was lol.
My budget is about 3500-4000 dollars but may go up or down depending on the necessity of items as well as how money starts to pick up.
My goal is for it to be a decent track car as well as be quick on the pedal for street drag races( street legal in Texas).
I'd prefer a light chassis so the car wouldn't have to put a ton of power out, fuel efficiency would be nice but isn't necessary, and I'm willing/love to go with an old school. Flip up lights are a must, and I'm probably going to rip out the internals for a roll cage as well as other things when it becomes necessary. I like handling around corners and ease of maintenance of that counts for anything.

If you have any sort of high aspirations for drag racing I would look at different motors and different chassis.
For all the rest I'd suggest my favorite type of A series build and that's high comp low boost.
Something like 10:1 compression, 10 PSI and 200-250 CHP or thereabouts. That would be a safe setup with good headroom and reliability.
Step up to meth injection or E85 and it wouldn't be too hard to double that.

Of course this is not the cheapest route and would be pushing your budget but if you did most the work yourself it should be around there.
The advantages of high compression are more power per PSI, quicker spool, better gas mileage and since you are running less boost you can run a smaller turbo which means even quicker spool.
It does limit your peak numbers but this doesn't matter if you aren't chasing huge numbers.

I am not a fan of the GZE. Unlike jondee86 I would much rather spend much less on an NA 4A and throw some good pistons into it. The GZE has very low compression. Even the smallport 8.9:1 are way too low for my liking unless I was going for 350 hp/liter or something.
With that said people have made over 600 hp on the stock internals aside from ARP hardware and cams. The only thing the 3SGTE has on the 4A is displacement. That definitely counts for something but considering the handicap the 4A can give it a serious run for it's money.

Most of the challenging stuff you read in that turbo guide is tuning theory and while there are some differences with an NA build the challenge is no less present. In fact building a turbo 200 HP 4A would be like third grade tuning whereas making a 200 HP NA 4A would be more like highschool level tuning.
All the vital stuff like detonation, AFRs, EGTs, VE etc will be just as important tuning NA.

The stock NA ECU has been proven capable to about 160 WHP in both NA and boosted form. It's possible but impractical to try to make much more. After that engine management would be equally as challenging between NA and boost.

So really the added challenge of going turbo is plumbing it. In the big scheme of things that's the least of your worries.

[pteroduck]

Hello,

Thanks for the response, and I just realized how ambiguous I was lol.
My budget is about 3500-4000 dollars but may go up or down depending on the necessity of items as well as how money starts to pick up.
My goal is for it to be a decent track car as well as be quick on the pedal for street drag races( street legal in Texas).
I'd prefer a light chassis so the car wouldn't have to put a ton of power out, fuel efficiency would be nice but isn't necessary, and I'm willing/love to go with an old school. Flip up lights are a must, and I'm probably going to rip out the internals for a roll cage as well as other things when it becomes necessary. I like handling around corners and ease of maintenance of that counts for anything.

If you have any sort of high aspirations for drag racing I would look at different motors and different chassis.
For all the rest I'd suggest my favorite type of A series build and that's high comp low boost.
Something like 10:1 compression, 10 PSI and 200-250 CHP or thereabouts. That would be a safe setup with good headroom and reliability.
Step up to meth injection or E85 and it wouldn't be too hard to double that.

Of course this is not the cheapest route and would be pushing your budget but if you did most the work yourself it should be around there.
The advantages of high compression are more power per PSI, quicker spool, better gas mileage and since you are running less boost you can run a smaller turbo which means even quicker spool.
It does limit your peak numbers but this doesn't matter if you aren't chasing huge numbers.

I am not a fan of the GZE. Unlike jondee86 I would much rather spend much less on an NA 4A and throw some good pistons into it. The GZE has very low compression. Even the smallport 8.9:1 are way too low for my liking unless I was going for 350 hp/liter or something.
With that said people have made over 600 hp on the stock internals aside from ARP hardware and cams. The only thing the 3SGTE has on the 4A is displacement. That definitely counts for something but considering the handicap the 4A can give it a serious run for it's money.

Most of the challenging stuff you read in that turbo guide is tuning theory and while there are some differences with an NA build the challenge is no less present. In fact building a turbo 200 HP 4A would be like third grade tuning whereas making a 200 HP NA 4A would be more like highschool level tuning.
All the vital stuff like detonation, AFRs, EGTs, VE etc will be just as important tuning NA.

The stock NA ECU has been proven capable to about 160 WHP in both NA and boosted form. It's possible but impractical to try to make much more. After that engine management would be equally as challenging between NA and boost.

So really the added challenge of going turbo is plumbing it. In the big scheme of things that's the least of your worries.

When you say look at different motors and different chassis, do you mean other engines from other companies like Honda B16's and Nissan SR20's? As for chassis, what should I be looking for besides aesthetics? Will it be factors such as ease of installing the engine and and its components? For "drag racing" I'd like to have a quick acceleration to beat all those lame American muscle cars that always seem to weigh two tons .

I'm just trying to get a solid base with good numbers to start out with and reasonable headroom to expand on other things for the car. I probably won't ever be using meth injection or E85 as a fuel source as well. I was planning to keep the engine NA but turboing it will be an option. I'm definitely not going for a 350HP/Litre but maybe about 100HP per litre would be nice since the engine maybe 1.6L or a 2.0 depending on what I get. The internals of the engine will definitely be rebuilt to make it more reliable. Money will be a bit of an issue but if the 3SGE is worth every cent, I'll probably be putting the cash down for the transplant into whatever chassis I choose.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

When you say look at different motors and different chassis, do you mean other engines from other companies like Honda B16's and Nissan SR20's? As for chassis, what should I be looking for besides aesthetics? Will it be factors such as ease of installing the engine and and its components? For "drag racing" I'd like to have a quick acceleration to beat all those lame American muscle cars that always seem to weigh two tons .

I'm just trying to get a solid base with good numbers to start out with and reasonable headroom to expand on other things for the car. I probably won't ever be using meth injection or E85 as a fuel source as well. I was planning to keep the engine NA but turboing it will be an option. I'm definitely not going for a 350HP/Litre but maybe about 100HP per litre would be nice since the engine maybe 1.6L or a 2.0 depending on what I get. The internals of the engine will definitely be rebuilt to make it more reliable. Money will be a bit of an issue but if the 3SGE is worth every cent, I'll probably be putting the cash down for the transplant into whatever chassis I choose.

100 hp per liter on a 4A will put you at 160. There are still minivans out there that have better power to weight ratios. Sure there are some big American cars with less but it still wouldn't take much for you to get your @$$ handed to you by a Caravan.
This is why I don't like drag racing and why I suggested a different platform if that is at all a priority. In a straight line it would take a ton of money to take down a stock 2JZ Supra or a 3000GT. Yes they are massive tanks but massive tanks with big motors and boost. If a straight line was your priority you would be better off starting with something like that but then all you would have is a big tank that goes straight fast.
On the other hand it would not take much at all to get an AW11, AE86 or similar old light Toyota to keep up with either of those cars in the tight and twisties. If light and quick with good handling are more important to you then these are great cars. If you want something that is light quick and fun on the track they are great choices. If you want to take down that Supra, NSX, built and blown Camaro, etc at the drag races you will spend about as much on your cheap old Toyota to get it there as they spent on their cars to get them there.

[pteroduck]

When you say look at different motors and different chassis, do you mean other engines from other companies like Honda B16's and Nissan SR20's? As for chassis, what should I be looking for besides aesthetics? Will it be factors such as ease of installing the engine and and its components? For "drag racing" I'd like to have a quick acceleration to beat all those lame American muscle cars that always seem to weigh two tons .

I'm just trying to get a solid base with good numbers to start out with and reasonable headroom to expand on other things for the car. I probably won't ever be using meth injection or E85 as a fuel source as well. I was planning to keep the engine NA but turboing it will be an option. I'm definitely not going for a 350HP/Litre but maybe about 100HP per litre would be nice since the engine maybe 1.6L or a 2.0 depending on what I get. The internals of the engine will definitely be rebuilt to make it more reliable. Money will be a bit of an issue but if the 3SGE is worth every cent, I'll probably be putting the cash down for the transplant into whatever chassis I choose.

100 hp per liter on a 4A will put you at 160. There are still minivans out there that have better power to weight ratios. Sure there are some big American cars with less but it still wouldn't take much for you to get your @$$ handed to you by a Caravan.
This is why I don't like drag racing and why I suggested a different platform if that is at all a priority. In a straight line it would take a ton of money to take down a stock 2JZ Supra or a 3000GT. Yes they are massive tanks but massive tanks with big motors and boost. If a straight line was your priority you would be better off starting with something like that but then all you would have is a big tank that goes straight fast.
On the other hand it would not take much at all to get an AW11, AE86 or similar old light Toyota to keep up with either of those cars in the tight and twisties. If light and quick with good handling are more important to you then these are great cars. If you want something that is light quick and fun on the track they are great choices. If you want to take down that Supra, NSX, built and blown Camaro, etc at the drag races you will spend about as much on your cheap old Toyota to get it there as they spent on their cars to get them there.

You're completely right there, I'd hate for my ass to get handed to me by an American minivan. Drag racing is a priority but a small priority. It's just for the street every now and then but the car will most definitely be living mostly on the race track/circuit. Drag racing is just for fun but it'd be nice to have a decent car for that. But the main point is the circuit times and handling. I like the idea of a fast tank but because it's no good on the track, I'd rather not. For me, I'd like a balance of the two properties so on the straight aways I can keep up and on the turns/corners, I'll be able to pass them up.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

A 4AGTE would probably suit your goals pretty well.
I would say it depends on your platform.
If you get a car with a 4AGE in it then it may be the most practical solution. If got a car that had something else in it that didn't meet your needs it may be more practical to swap something else in over a 4AGE.
It also depends on what you find in your area or good deals you stumble across.
Lightweight is an advantage. For example a stripper model AW11 with 300 CHP should give a 440 HP loaded WRX or DSM or a 480 HP Supra a good run for their money because it weighs a thousand pounds less. Of course it would take a similar amount of work to get 300 CHP out of a 4AGE as it would take to get 440 out of a WRX or DSM.

[pteroduck]

A 4AGTE would probably suit your goals pretty well.
I would say it depends on your platform.
If you get a car with a 4AGE in it then it may be the most practical solution. If got a car that had something else in it that didn't meet your needs it may be more practical to swap something else in over a 4AGE.
It also depends on what you find in your area or good deals you stumble across.
Lightweight is an advantage. For example a stripper model AW11 with 300 CHP should give a 440 HP loaded WRX or DSM or a 480 HP Supra a good run for their money because it weighs a thousand pounds less. Of course it would take a similar amount of work to get 300 CHP out of a 4AGE as it would take to get 440 out of a WRX or DSM.

I know that the GTE is pretty much the GZE with a Garrett Turbo, but after reading this [http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Pros%20and%20Cons%20of%204A-GE.htm], I'm a bit scared running the 4AGZE/GTE conversion. By platform do you mean car chassis or something else?
For the engine swap, maybe it might be more practical for me to swap to a slightly larger engine that displaces more to have a solid base then work on it with turbo and what not or no? Both seem equally challenging. Ill be hunting for deals locally as well as non-locally. When you say 300 CHP do you mean HP at the flywheel? Sorry, my vocabulary isn't up to par with all you pros . I plan on keeping the lightweight as my main advantage as I dont like how heavy cars handle and such for racing on the track and circuit.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I know that the GTE is pretty much the GZE with a Garrett Turbo, but after reading this [http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Pros%20and%20Cons%20of%204A-GE.htm], I'm a bit scared running the 4AGZE/GTE conversion. By platform do you mean car chassis or something else?
For the engine swap, maybe it might be more practical for me to swap to a slightly larger engine that displaces more to have a solid base then work on it with turbo and what not or no? Both seem equally challenging. Ill be hunting for deals locally as well as non-locally. When you say 300 CHP do you mean HP at the flywheel? Sorry, my vocabulary isn't up to par with all you pros . I plan on keeping the lightweight as my main advantage as I dont like how heavy cars handle and such for racing on the track and circuit.

A GTE is a slang term since there was never a 4AGE from the factory. Therefore it really means any 4AGE with a turbo on it. Could be a completely stock largeport, smallport, GZE, silvertop or blacktop with a turbo on it. My 4AGTE is a stock Blacktop controlled by a GZE ECU with a 3SGTE AFM, 1JZ injectors, DSM turbo and many other odds and ends either custom or from other cars.

Or GTE could be any of the above built specifically for a turbo application.

Personally I would rather start with an NA 4AGE 7 rib and build it for boost with some good pistons and compression ratio chosen based off power goals and fuel.


There is a lot of good information on this board but that one you linked to is awful. It needs to be deleted or massively fixed.
I would disregard anything you read on there.

Yes CHP is at the flywheel. Crank Horsepower.

[pteroduck]

I know that the GTE is pretty much the GZE with a Garrett Turbo, but after reading this [http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Pros%20and%20Cons%20of%204A-GE.htm], I'm a bit scared running the 4AGZE/GTE conversion. By platform do you mean car chassis or something else?
For the engine swap, maybe it might be more practical for me to swap to a slightly larger engine that displaces more to have a solid base then work on it with turbo and what not or no? Both seem equally challenging. Ill be hunting for deals locally as well as non-locally. When you say 300 CHP do you mean HP at the flywheel? Sorry, my vocabulary isn't up to par with all you pros . I plan on keeping the lightweight as my main advantage as I dont like how heavy cars handle and such for racing on the track and circuit.

A GTE is a slang term since there was never a 4AGE from the factory. Therefore it really means any 4AGE with a turbo on it. Could be a completely stock largeport, smallport, GZE, silvertop or blacktop with a turbo on it. My 4AGTE is a stock Blacktop controlled by a GZE ECU with a 3SGTE AFM, 1JZ injectors, DSM turbo and many other odds and ends either custom or from other cars.

Or GTE could be any of the above built specifically for a turbo application.

Personally I would rather start with an NA 4AGE 7 rib and build it for boost with some good pistons and compression ratio chosen based off power goals and fuel.


There is a lot of good information on this board but that one you linked to is awful. It needs to be deleted or massively fixed.
I would disregard anything you read on there.

Yes CHP is at the flywheel. Crank Horsepower.

The 7 rib is the NA 4AGE redtop correct? According to [http://www.billzilla.org/4agstock.htm] anyways. I could be looking at incorrect links so if you know any good ones I can read up on please let me know. I'm also digging through [http://club4ag.com/technical_main.htm] as well. Can I use this [http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm] as a good general direction as to where to start? So, it should be high compression and low boost so I get more per PSI when I boost correct? Power is mostly priority, fuel isn't as much of a priority in my opinion for this build. How easy would it be to get that 300 CHP that you mentioned? According to that 1st article, 200HP w/ turbo for a 4AGE is already pretty good. Maybe I would need to move to an engine with larger displacement?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Don't use top colors for the 16 valve. It creates more confusion than anything.

Gen 1 was the three rib largeport. This is found in most AE86s and All MR2s before about 1987.
Every 4AGE after that was 7 rib with the larger rotating assembly.
This includes the Gen 2 largeport, the smallport and the 20 valves.

Billzilla is decades outdated and has some good information mixed in with some bad information or just plain outdated information. I kind of wish it was taken down at this point. It almost does more harm than good. Either that or massively updated. Much of the stock page is accurate and useful. The tuning and modification pages are next to useless. If you use them as a guide your build will be outdated by 20 years.

The same goes for the G4AG tech pages. There is a ton of great info there and a lot of it is accurate and good but there is also stuff completely wrong or just outdated there as well.

Take everything you read with a grain of salt. This is why research is paramount. The more you learn the more you will be able to tell what is BS, what is outdated and what is useful.

You want to keep the compression as high as you can while meeting your power goals with a safe margin for error. Higher compression makes the motor more efficient. It improves BSFC which is basically the amount of energy the motor can extract from a unit of fuel and turn into work. When you say more PSI it's too vague. More compression will increase cylinder pressure so yes there you would have more pressure. More compression means you can run less boost to make the same amount of power.

For example and these numbers are 100% made up.
With the same motor setup and 7:1 compression let's say it takes 30 PSI boost to get to 300 WHP. The motor can take a lot more boost because the compression is so low but the motor is very inefficient. This means that the motor has very little power when off boost. You would need a huge turbo with a very tall pressure ratio. It would take a lot of work to get that turbo to cram a massive amount of air at very high pressure into the motor. Since the turbo is very big it would be very laggy. The low compression would make it even laggier. It would also be a huge transition from totally gutless off boost to a massive wall of power hitting once the turbo spooled. And of course gas mileage would be lousy.

Now up the compression to 10:1 and now you can make 300 WHP at 20 PSI.
Throw some bigger cams in and bump it to 10.5:1 and you can make 300 WHP at 16 PSI.
Now you are extracting a lot more energy out of each unit of fuel. The pressure ratio is also much lower. These combined mean you can run a much smaller turbo. This makes it spool much faster. The increased compression will also help spool but bigger cams will increase lag a little as well.
Now the motor makes quite respectable power off boost. The transition from off boost to on boost is much less violent, much quicker and much more predictable.

I think for your goals a 4AGE turbo would be plenty but always keep your mind open to other motor options to see what is most practical.
If you want just a little more displacement you could always build a 7AGE hybrid.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

Once again this will allow you to make more power with less boost, make more power at lower RPMs, and will also help reduce spool time.

[pteroduck]

Don't use top colors for the 16 valve. It creates more confusion than anything.

Gen 1 was the three rib largeport. This is found in most AE86s and All MR2s before about 1987.
Every 4AGE after that was 7 rib with the larger rotating assembly.
This includes the Gen 2 largeport, the smallport and the 20 valves.

Billzilla is decades outdated and has some good information mixed in with some bad information or just plain outdated information. I kind of wish it was taken down at this point. It almost does more harm than good. Either that or massively updated. Much of the stock page is accurate and useful. The tuning and modification pages are next to useless. If you use them as a guide your build will be outdated by 20 years.

The same goes for the G4AG tech pages. There is a ton of great info there and a lot of it is accurate and good but there is also stuff completely wrong or just outdated there as well.

Take everything you read with a grain of salt. This is why research is paramount. The more you learn the more you will be able to tell what is BS, what is outdated and what is useful.

You want to keep the compression as high as you can while meeting your power goals with a safe margin for error. Higher compression makes the motor more efficient. It improves BSFC which is basically the amount of energy the motor can extract from a unit of fuel and turn into work. When you say more PSI it's too vague. More compression will increase cylinder pressure so yes there you would have more pressure. More compression means you can run less boost to make the same amount of power.

For example and these numbers are 100% made up.
With the same motor setup and 7:1 compression let's say it takes 30 PSI boost to get to 300 WHP. The motor can take a lot more boost because the compression is so low but the motor is very inefficient. This means that the motor has very little power when off boost. You would need a huge turbo with a very tall pressure ratio. It would take a lot of work to get that turbo to cram a massive amount of air at very high pressure into the motor. Since the turbo is very big it would be very laggy. The low compression would make it even laggier. It would also be a huge transition from totally gutless off boost to a massive wall of power hitting once the turbo spooled. And of course gas mileage would be lousy.

Now up the compression to 10:1 and now you can make 300 WHP at 20 PSI.
Throw some bigger cams in and bump it to 10.5:1 and you can make 300 WHP at 16 PSI.
Now you are extracting a lot more energy out of each unit of fuel. The pressure ratio is also much lower. These combined mean you can run a much smaller turbo. This makes it spool much faster. The increased compression will also help spool but bigger cams will increase lag a little as well.
Now the motor makes quite respectable power off boost. The transition from off boost to on boost is much less violent, much quicker and much more predictable.

I think for your goals a 4AGE turbo would be plenty but always keep your mind open to other motor options to see what is most practical.
If you want just a little more displacement you could always build a 7AGE hybrid.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

Once again this will allow you to make more power with less boost, make more power at lower RPMs, and will also help reduce spool time.

So I'm assuming the colors are very much interchangeable, so the indicators would be ribs and valves correct? The article stated the three rib would not be ideal to start a build so I'm assuming I'll be starting with the 7 rib 16v or 20v correct? I'll probably stick to the MR2 forums as well as these forums to get decent information right? I know the usual engine was around the 11:1 or 8.9:1 depending on which engine it was. So for the responsive ideal build, I would rely on a high compression engine, with a smaller turbo to keep spooling time to a minimum and thus have less lag correct? The 7AGE seems ideal but it might be too much work to gather all the parts for the hybrid build. I may just want a bit more displacement for more power but I'll keep on researching more engines to see which seems to be the best. I was also thinking something like an SR20DET, Honda B16A, or a B18. More displacement would make more power at lower RPMs and reduce spool time would be ideal for me as well.

[Jinsoku]

while reading through all of this i was thinking you'd want something like an sr20det swap.

you have a lot of great advice from these guys, get the car and learn it.
while saving up,studying swaps and sourcing parts you can get a feel for the car and obtain a good amount of experience which will help you decide on a route thats best for you and the goals for your ride!

[yoshimitsuspeed]

So I'm assuming the colors are very much interchangeable, so the indicators would be ribs and valves correct? The article stated the three rib would not be ideal to start a build so I'm assuming I'll be starting with the 7 rib 16v or 20v correct? I'll probably stick to the MR2 forums as well as these forums to get decent information right? I know the usual engine was around the 11:1 or 8.9:1 depending on which engine it was. So for the responsive ideal build, I would rely on a high compression engine, with a smaller turbo to keep spooling time to a minimum and thus have less lag correct? The 7AGE seems ideal but it might be too much work to gather all the parts for the hybrid build. I may just want a bit more displacement for more power but I'll keep on researching more engines to see which seems to be the best. I was also thinking something like an SR20DET, Honda B16A, or a B18. More displacement would make more power at lower RPMs and reduce spool time would be ideal for me as well.

The more you know about the specific motors and generations the better.
The main ganerations are
Gen 1 3 rib largeport (the only 3 rib gen)
Gen 2 7 rib largeport
Gen 3 Smallport
Gen 4 Silvertop
Gen 5 Blacktop

The 20 valves don't have any confusion or misunderstanding so using top color is commonly accepted and really one of the clearest ways to describe the two.
Of course then there are some other sub generation changes, design market variations and other things like that and if you don't have a run of the mill motor it's always best to go into as much detail as possible.
The biggest thing about the 3 rib block and most importantly smaller rotating assembly is that there is a lot less aftermarket support so to run it you would spend more money to run the weaker motor. Better off just starting with a 7 rib with the 20/42 rotating assembly.
As for 16v or 20v, that's up to you, what you want, what you find and what you choose to do.
This forum and the MR2 forums are great places for info. There are a lot of other great sources of info. There is also a lot of bad info. The more you research and the more you learn the better chance you will have of knowing which is which.

I know the usual engine was around the 11:1 or 8.9:1 depending on which engine it was.

This shows just how much more research you have to do. This is very easy info to find and most sources will have most of it right.
There were at least 7 different compression ratios on the 4AGE between NA 16v, GZE and 20v.

High comp builds are great as long as you are willing to put in the work to do it right. Of course that applies to any build.

I like how in one sentence you say putting together a 7A might be too much work but a couple sentences later you start talking about swaps. Any of those swaps you mentioned will take more skill, more tools, more knowledge, more sourcing of parts and definitely more custom fabrication and or money to complete.
Personally I'm a big enough fan of the 4AGE that I would never consider a swap for another 10-20% increase in displacement. If I ever did a non 4A build in an A series chassis would be something much different. 2GR, EZ36, 1UZ etc.
Any of which would likely be turbocharged because at that point you just might as well.

[oldeskewltoy]

If you NEED to go drag racing.... and you NEED to beat the Caravan, and most of those muscle cars.... you can begin your research here.... http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewforum.php?f=39

That form is the only small import forum I've seen with a dedication to drag racing. There may... or more likely may not be a 4A in there, but I can assure you there are a few 3TC engines in that group - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_T_engine. And many cars in that group are sub 10 seconds


Why MUST it have flip up lights???

[pteroduck]

while reading through all of this i was thinking you'd want something like an sr20det swap.

you have a lot of great advice from these guys, get the car and learn it.
while saving up,studying swaps and sourcing parts you can get a feel for the car and obtain a good amount of experience which will help you decide on a route thats best for you and the goals for your ride!

Yeah, I'll probably follow up on that advice. I just wanted to get a good idea of what I was getting myself into. I have an idea of what I want and what I've seen so far. I'd realistically like a reliable ride with A/C like a daily ride but also have power at the wheels with great handling. I was looking at a 1986 AW11 MR2 MK1 with about 350HP at the wheels and a turbo. I was thinking either the 3SGTE because it already swaps right into the mounts as is or a 1mz/3vz/5vz and supercharged. I just wanted some advice on what would be the most efficient route and the best way to achieve them.

[pteroduck]

So I'm assuming the colors are very much interchangeable, so the indicators would be ribs and valves correct? The article stated the three rib would not be ideal to start a build so I'm assuming I'll be starting with the 7 rib 16v or 20v correct? I'll probably stick to the MR2 forums as well as these forums to get decent information right? I know the usual engine was around the 11:1 or 8.9:1 depending on which engine it was. So for the responsive ideal build, I would rely on a high compression engine, with a smaller turbo to keep spooling time to a minimum and thus have less lag correct? The 7AGE seems ideal but it might be too much work to gather all the parts for the hybrid build. I may just want a bit more displacement for more power but I'll keep on researching more engines to see which seems to be the best. I was also thinking something like an SR20DET, Honda B16A, or a B18. More displacement would make more power at lower RPMs and reduce spool time would be ideal for me as well.

The more you know about the specific motors and generations the better.
The main ganerations are
Gen 1 3 rib largeport (the only 3 rib gen)
Gen 2 7 rib largeport
Gen 3 Smallport
Gen 4 Silvertop
Gen 5 Blacktop

The 20 valves don't have any confusion or misunderstanding so using top color is commonly accepted and really one of the clearest ways to describe the two.
Of course then there are some other sub generation changes, design market variations and other things like that and if you don't have a run of the mill motor it's always best to go into as much detail as possible.
The biggest thing about the 3 rib block and most importantly smaller rotating assembly is that there is a lot less aftermarket support so to run it you would spend more money to run the weaker motor. Better off just starting with a 7 rib with the 20/42 rotating assembly.
As for 16v or 20v, that's up to you, what you want, what you find and what you choose to do.
This forum and the MR2 forums are great places for info. There are a lot of other great sources of info. There is also a lot of bad info. The more you research and the more you learn the better chance you will have of knowing which is which.

I know the usual engine was around the 11:1 or 8.9:1 depending on which engine it was.

This shows just how much more research you have to do. This is very easy info to find and most sources will have most of it right.
There were at least 7 different compression ratios on the 4AGE between NA 16v, GZE and 20v.

High comp builds are great as long as you are willing to put in the work to do it right. Of course that applies to any build.

I like how in one sentence you say putting together a 7A might be too much work but a couple sentences later you start talking about swaps. Any of those swaps you mentioned will take more skill, more tools, more knowledge, more sourcing of parts and definitely more custom fabrication and or money to complete.
Personally I'm a big enough fan of the 4AGE that I would never consider a swap for another 10-20% increase in displacement. If I ever did a non 4A build in an A series chassis would be something much different. 2GR, EZ36, 1UZ etc.
Any of which would likely be turbocharged because at that point you just might as well.

Thanks for the information, just shows I have quite a bit more digging to do.
I do plan on going turbo but going turbo right in the beginning might be too much for me to do at once. I'm just trying to plan the most efficient way to reach my power goals for the car while keeping it at a realistic spot.

[pteroduck]

If you NEED to go drag racing.... and you NEED to beat the Caravan, and most of those muscle cars.... you can begin your research here.... http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewforum.php?f=39

That form is the only small import forum I've seen with a dedication to drag racing. There may... or more likely may not be a 4A in there, but I can assure you there are a few 3TC engines in that group - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_T_engine. And many cars in that group are sub 10 seconds


Why MUST it have flip up lights???

Drag racing isn't a must but I'd like to have it on the side. Flip up head lights are a must for me because it's been a thing for me since a kid.