which engine has more potential for more power?

[kidsharingan]

The reason i converted the SPs torque is to see the difference as they are not the same units that s ft lb and kg M ... wast it that the torque is what we call the pulling power? Correct me if im wrong ... so im seeing on the above graphs that even though they have the same horse power at the same rpm bands but they have verry different torque curve characteristics which as i saw the BP has more linear and higher... even if this is different chasis i think the BP has a better curve there

[kidsharingan]

Anyway this clears eveything to me ... so now what ever is available either big or small port i can have have and make this kind of power ... and surely i will buy them cams and pistons ...

[yoshimitsuspeed]

The reason i converted the SPs torque is to see the difference as they are not the same units that s ft lb and kg M ... wast it that the torque is what we call the pulling power?

You just answered your own question. You say torque but then you refer to pulling "power".

Correct me if im wrong

Okay

so im seeing on the above graphs that even though they have the same horse power at the same rpm bands but they have verry different torque curve characteristics which as i saw the BP has more linear and higher

You obviously didn't read any of the links I posted on the subject or at least not to the point of understanding them.
The problem is that most people believe that torque and power mean one thing in the world of physics.
Someone can look at a torque wrench and understand that your lug nuts get 75 lb ft of torque and understand the basic concept yet look at an engine/transmission and from preconditioning think that it operates under a completely different set of rules.

Torque and power are mathematically tied. If the power curve between two dynos is the same in regards to RPM then the torque curve has to be the same. If it is not then there are unaccounted variables. One such variable can be that on many dynos they show the torque at the wheels. This is after the power has gone through a transmission, also known as a torque multiplier.

If all variables are accounted for then HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

With this formula you can look at either of those power curves take any intersection of power and RPM and figure out TQ or any intersection of power and TQ to find RPM or any point of TQ and RPM to find HP.
You need two to find the third and if two don't equal the third something is wrong.

Now I am a lazy ass so I usually just use a calculator.

So I don't need to do torque conversions I will only go one way on these examples but you can go either way.

So the smallport makes 85 HP at 4000 RPM. Throw that into the calculator and it tells me that's 111.61 lb ft of torque.
Now I go over to the LP graph to see what it makes at 4000 RPM and it makes just over 110 lb ft torque.
Crazy huh?

At 7000 RPM the SP makes I'd guess 154 HP with the high comp and cams.
Throw those into the calculator and it makes 115.54 lb ft at 7k.
So now go over to the LP graph and it makes about, craziness, about 115 lb ft torque.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Now let's take it one step further because torque to the wheels is in fact very important.

So we have a detroit diesel that makes 1000 lb ft torque at 1000 RPM.
This is crazy right? That's a lot of torque. This is the stuff pickup commercials have wet dreams about.

Since it takes too much maths to calculate for rear end gear ratios and tire diameters and stuff that actually multiplies torque to the ground lets take this motor off and put it on an engine dyno.

Now at 1000 RPM the motor is making 190.4 HP.

Now we could use that formula above and a gearbox to half the ratio so it makes 2000 lb ft at 500 RPM or we could double the ratio to make 500 lb ft at 2000 RPM but either way it will only be making 190.4 hp and will be doing the same amount of work.

Now let's go back to that gas turbine engine.

It only makes 10 lb ft torque.
Now all the diesel guys are laughing and even the 4AGE guys are pretty proud of themselves for breaking 100 right?
10 lb ft, that's nothing. Couldn't even strip a 6mm bolt.
That motor was making 10 lb ft at 200000 RPM.
That's too fast to do any good for most applications so let's throw it through a transmission (torque multiplier).

Let's put it on the same engine dyno that the Detroit was on.
Let's aim for the same 1000 RPM the Detroit was spinning. To do that we have to run it through a 200:1 reduction gearbox. This slows the RPM by 200 times
Think back to that formula.
If the RPM is divided by 200 what has to happen? The torque is multiplied by 200.
So now the gas turbine engine is spinning the dyno at 1000 RPM and it is applying 2000 lb ft of torque to the dyno at that RPM.
So now which motor makes more torque?
The one with more power because you can always reduce RPM to turn power into more torque.

[kidsharingan]

Ok i get it now ... guess i wasnt paying attention to my teacher during collage days ... thanks for taking time to explain..

on the small port graph with cams and more compression set up the power is still going up but it reach the dead end at 7500 rpm due to the limit of the ECU .. can we use the ecu of the blacktop 4age to attain the most power up till 8000 rpm? Are the ecus interchangeable?

I was looking at your matrix garage and found that the engine management cost around 400 - 700 bucks ... Are those programable?

[totta crolla]

Toyota have done all of this for you, they made the 20v blacktop. Think you can do a better job than Toyota ?
Conversion kits for the 20v are easily available.
Fit a blacktop and be happy
Tune a 16v yourself and spend months and $$$ trying getting the power that you think it should make.
Even OST eludes to the fact that his 16v engine is making power that is in 'blacktop territory'

[kidsharingan]

yup blacktop really is a better choice for instant power for the buck... but I want to challenge my self, getting a much lesser power motor than a blacktop and making it more powerful and learn from it, if I would like I can just go with the 3sge as it has more power than a blacktop but I wont as I want to learn and start from the much older 4ag's ...

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Ok i get it now ... guess i wasnt paying attention to my teacher during collage days ... thanks for taking time to explain..

on the small port graph with cams and more compression set up the power is still going up but it reach the dead end at 7500 rpm due to the limit of the ECU .. can we use the ecu of the blacktop 4age to attain the most power up till 8000 rpm? Are the ecus interchangeable?

I was looking at your matrix garage and found that the engine management cost around 400 - 700 bucks ... Are those programable?

It would take too much work to get a 20v ECU running a 16V and there is a good chance it wouldn't run as well as you would want it to.
You would be best off just going to aftermarket engine management.
I have a couple ECUs on my site such as megasquirt and the AEM EMS4. These are fully programmable.
Then there is the AEM FIC. This is a piggyback that is used with your stock ECU.
I don't really recommend using piggybacks but if I were ever to use one this is the one I would use.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Toyota have done all of this for you, they made the 20v blacktop. Think you can do a better job than Toyota ?
Conversion kits for the 20v are easily available.
Fit a blacktop and be happy
Tune a 16v yourself and spend months and $$$ trying getting the power that you think it should make.
Even OST eludes to the fact that his 16v engine is making power that is in 'blacktop territory'

It is pretty easy to make a 16v outperform a stock 20v actually and many people have done it for less than they would have spent on the swap. This includes turbo builds on the stock ECU and internals as well as fairly cheap NA builds.
Don't get me wrong I love the 20v and am running one myself but the above argument in it's self is no good reason to ditch the 16v.
As far as the NA build goes it cannot be directly compared to a 20v swap because if you are smart you would at least to a basic inspection and R&R on the 20v swap too. If you didn't do a full rebuild you are comparing a freshly built NA making more power than a stock 20v to a very likely neglected motor that may not have had two oil changes in 80k miles.
When you have a specific goal it's actually pretty easy to beat Toyota. I am not a better designer or engineer but I am also not limited by the compromises that an OEM car is.

[totta crolla]

Can you list then the modifications required to beat Toyota using the NA 16v as a base, a list that is guaranteed to work ?
The 20v when used with the correct fuel is a known quantity even with high mileages.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a 16v, mine is a smallport and it gives my car the performance about the same as a 20v equipped car but I have been building engines for many years, the OP on the other hand sounds like he (she) maybe very new to the concept.
Personally I'll not bother with another 16v when its time, I'll just fit a blacktop and apply my tuning to that.
Why would you recommend an engine that makes less performance in the hope that you can get it to the level of a known quantity engine of higher performance, an engine that can also be tuned further if required ?

[LongGrain]

You say a 20v can be "tuned further" than a 16v, which has been proven to not be true.

also Yoshumitspeed has posted dyno charts of basic 16v engines with just matrix garage pistons and tomei poncams making 140whp. That's more power to the wheels than any stock 20v I've ever seen.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Can you list then the modifications required to beat Toyota using the NA 16v as a base, a list that is guaranteed to work ?
The 20v when used with the correct fuel is a known quantity even with high mileages.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a 16v, mine is a smallport and it gives my car the performance about the same as a 20v equipped car but I have been building engines for many years, the OP on the other hand sounds like he (she) maybe very new to the concept.
Personally I'll not bother with another 16v when its time, I'll just fit a blacktop and apply my tuning to that.
Why would you recommend an engine that makes less performance in the hope that you can get it to the level of a known quantity engine of higher performance, an engine that can also be tuned further if required ?

LongGrain summed it up pretty well.

All you need is cams and compression and a 16v will walk on a stock 20v.

While I can't guarantee anything to work and while it does greatly depend on how you build it the reason I promote this setup is not that I think it's the best thing that could ever be but because it has been proven to work and documented better than any other 4AGE build I have been involved in or really even seen.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... nd-pistons

Considering most stock 20 valves put 125 to 140 HP to the wheels that 16v dyno could be off by a good bit and still outrun a 20v.

I love the 20v and I think it has as much potential as the 16v with the right work but if you look at NA 200+ hp motors they will almost all be 16 valves.
This is largely due to Formula Atlantic and the fact that the 16v has had so much development time into it but that doesn't change the fact that if you wanted a 250 HP NA 4A the safer, cheaper and more practical bet would be 16v.

[burdickjp]

LongGrain summed it up pretty well.

All you need is cams and compression and a 16v will walk on a stock 20v.

While I can't guarantee anything to work and while it does greatly depend on how you build it the reason I promote this setup is not that I think it's the best thing that could ever be but because it has been proven to work and documented better than any other 4AGE build I have been involved in or really even seen.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... nd-pistons

Considering most stock 20 valves put 125 to 140 HP to the wheels that 16v dyno could be off by a good bit and still outrun a 20v.

I love the 20v and I think it has as much potential as the 16v with the right work but if you look at NA 200+ hp motors they will almost all be 16 valves.
This is largely due to Formula Atlantic and the fact that the 16v has had so much development time into it but that doesn't change the fact that if you wanted a 250 HP NA 4A the safer, cheaper and more practical bet would be 16v.

I'd be hesitant to make a general statement like that based on the evidence you've provided.
I think Oldeskewltoy's build is much more indicative of what it takes to make 20Vish power on a 16v.

I prefer the 20v because it's inexpensive to get into and inexpensive to grow from.
Honestly, it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Pick one. Enjoy it. Iterate it. Grow. Have fun.

[totta crolla]

You say a 20v can be "tuned further" than a 16v, which has been proven to not be true.

also Yoshumitspeed has posted dyno charts of basic 16v engines with just matrix garage pistons and tomei poncams making 140whp. That's more power to the wheels than any stock 20v I've ever seen.

'tuned further' as in a stock 20v that could be tuned just as you would tune a 16v
A 20v is a fit and forget option that can be replaced by another when it eventually goes wrong.
Mostly this 20v vs 16v argument is over a few hp here and there.

[LongGrain]

You could just be like me and take that money you were going to use on a 20v and buy a beams 3s and make 210whp with just quads and a tune, plus you get an extra gear!

4ag's are great motors, but I dont miss mine at all.

[sirdeuce]

For the cost of a 20v engine you could probably build a 4AGE that would make you happy. The real savings would be in the installation, finding the necessary parts and time to do the swap. A beams 3S VVTi would be fantastic! But the query was about the 4AG family engines. My favorite combo for daily driving is a mildly ported head with 264/256 in/ex cams on a 40mm crank bottom end with a light flywheel and underdrive pulleys. The intake was extrude honed and the TB was bored to 64mm, used the stock exhaust manifold. Works well with the stock ECU, is decent in traffic, and revs like crazy! Last one I had lasted for several years and the guy that bought the car still runs it. Probably getting close to the 100k mile mark. I never babied it. I also had several other 4AGs built to varied levels and am working on a 7AG. Best thing to say would be to build the engine to withstand a lot and play with the tune as you go. You may think you want a 10,000rpm 240hp monster, and then find the 160hp 7500rpm mill is just right. I'd say that up to the 180-200hp mark and 8,000rpm any 4AG would do the job, just stay away from the 4AF crank with it's 6 bolt flywheel. It's YOUR car, YOUR money and YOUR decision. So what if you don't get it right the first time, it the way the game is played. Have fun!

[kidsharingan]

For the cost of a 20v engine you could probably build a 4AGE that would make you happy. The real savings would be in the installation, finding the necessary parts and time to do the swap. A beams 3S VVTi would be fantastic! But the query was about the 4AG family engines. My favorite combo for daily driving is a mildly ported head with 264/256 in/ex cams on a 40mm crank bottom end with a light flywheel and underdrive pulleys. The intake was extrude honed and the TB was bored to 64mm, used the stock exhaust manifold. Works well with the stock ECU, is decent in traffic, and revs like crazy! Last one I had lasted for several years and the guy that bought the car still runs it. Probably getting close to the 100k mile mark. I never babied it. I also had several other 4AGs built to varied levels and am working on a 7AG. Best thing to say would be to build the engine to withstand a lot and play with the tune as you go. You may think you want a 10,000rpm 240hp monster, and then find the 160hp 7500rpm mill is just right. I'd say that up to the 180-200hp mark and 8,000rpm any 4AG would do the job, just stay away from the 4AF crank with it's 6 bolt flywheel. It's YOUR car, YOUR money and YOUR decision. So what if you don't get it right the first time, it the way the game is played. Have fun!

thanks sir, im not really looking for power like that of a formula atlantic, that is way beyond my goal,, making the same power as that in the above graph or if I can squeeze a little bit up till 160 WHP and to be able to rev till 8000 rpm would be a dream come true for me,, after I saw the 4age 16v smallport in my friends EE90 and imagining it in my ae92's hood makes my mouth water ... thanks for the lots of information here, I had a lot of noob questions but thank you guys for being patient answering them ... once ive done my swap ill post it here,

and I will surely buy those cams and pistons and ecu from garage matrix ... hopefully within this year ... thanks

[kidsharingan]

guys I have another questions.

Im recently looking at the crankshaft of all 4age's and found that the BP 40mm journal crank have around 11.40 KG while the 42mm BP and SP journal crank has 12.40 KG, so that is a 1KG difference,, and also the earlier BP has small and lightest conrod.

after reading some stuffs about them cranks and con rods ,I learned that all of the 4age cranks are interchangeable.

now my questions are, what would be the advantage or dis advantage of running with the lightest crank possible in any engine?

I understand that getting rid of some extra weights in your car makes it run faster, is this also true with putting lightest parts in the engine like pistons, wrist pins, rods and crank shafts?

will an early BP crank which is the weakest among all other 4age cranks can handle up to 8000 -9000 rpm?

thanks.

[sirdeuce]

I like using the 40mm crank in my street engines. Between the lighter crank and rods you are about 1.4 kilos lighter, about 2 1/2 pounds. Makes for a snappier engine. Coupled with a lightweight flywheel and underdrive pulleys the engine revs like an overgrown motorcycle. The weight loss doesn't help produce power, but doesn't take as much to accelerate the components so it SEEMS like you have more power. I've had engines with the smaller crank last several years, and I don't baby my engines. I have an ECU that limits revs about a 1000rpm over the norm, around 8500rpm. Though a consideration at that rev level you might consider upgrading the oil pump to the later model 4A pump or a good aftermarket like Toga or Melling, or a set of Toda pump gears. Also, for the higher RPM operation make sure the oil return routes are clean or add extra return lines to the pan so the oil doesn't stack up in the head and leave your pickup high and dry. That's good for either the small or big crank. The small crank can handle up to 200hp but I would limit to around 180. BUT, if your engine sees track time, most would go for the 42mm crank, since the 40mm rod has a press fit wrist pin and the 42mm rods have full floating pins. The 40mm rod has an 18mm pin, and the 42mm rods have a 20mm pin.

[Rogue-AE95]

I keep reading about the 40mm crank being no good for more than 200 HP, but I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who pushed one well over 200 HP (and possibly found it to be just as reliable as the 42mm crank).

[sirdeuce]

Never heard of the reliability over 200hp. I know the rods can be pushed to over 8500rpm for lengthy periods without issue in a 180hp engine, once you get the oil to return to the pan. Oh yeah, that's with a big port head by the way. I drilled and tapped for 3/4" pipe and installed a -10 nipple as low as possible at the back of the head on the exhaust and intake sides of the head and welded bungs to the pan for nipples there for extra oil drains. Until then I staved 2 sets of bearings. Nasty! But the oil return, I find, is one major problem with the bigport head. But the 40mm rods are really underrated!. Too bad it's getting harder to source the smaller crank and rods.

[oldeskewltoy]

"small" crank is not fully counter-balanced, so RPM limits are about 8500 on the 40mm rod journal, or "small" crank. That is what limits its power potential, the 42mm rod journal crank can spin to about 9500 allowing more rpm to make additional power.

Photo shows "small" crank and "big" crank - highlights show the crankshaft counterweights which are different



As to the early crank and rods use...in my 170hp 4AGE... I'm using a 40mm rod journal crank....




as well as machined, and lightened 40mm rod journal rods

[sirdeuce]

And there is the best answer you can get on that query! My current planned project is the 40mm crankset with whatever pistons, not yet decided, with my 7lb flywheel mildly ported bigport head and 256 cams, 10.5 compression. looking for a neighborhood of 160hp. Should be a good combo for street.

OST, where did you get your rods done and $$? if you don't mind. Looking for a good shop.

[kidsharingan]

And there is the best answer you can get on that query! My current planned project is the 40mm crankset with whatever pistons, not yet decided, with my 7lb flywheel mildly ported bigport head and 256 cams, 10.5 compression. looking for a neighborhood of 160hp. Should be a good combo for street.

OST, where did you get your rods done and $$? if you don't mind. Looking for a good shop.

thanks for the answer guys.

im planning on doing the same now after confirming this, will sort out for a 40mm crank and lighter rods in my soon to be swap and build, since im not planning on going over 200 whp and running over 8500 rpm...

[oldeskewltoy]

OST, where did you get your rods done and $$? if you don't mind. Looking for a good shop.

Loynings Engine Service in Portland Oregon. my total machining costs were about $2600 back in 2009.

[Rogue-AE95]

"small" crank is not fully counter-balanced, so RPM limits are about 8500 on the 40mm rod journal, or "small" crank. That is what limits its power potential

OK. So keeping the RPMs below 8500 (perhaps even at stock redline), why not boost a 4A-GE with that crank to wind it up to 300 HP? I'm just curious why everyone is so against using the 40mm crank for high HP (I should clarify: BOOSTED) builds. Jeff (Orion Engineered) steered me away from the idea of using his custom 40/20 rods in a 300 HP boosted 4A-GE. Of course his rods don't have thrust side oiling holes (like most 4A-GE rods) or grooves (like 20v BT rods), and I considered calling up Molnar to ask if it's possible to have them added in... but I digress.

[sirdeuce]

For the high output apps, I believe, the consideration for the 42mm over the 40mm comes down to bearing loading. The Atlantic cars used the 40mm journals for a long time. The rods and cranks are not stock for sure, but the 40mm journal was used successfully. I think the reason people use the big crank and rods in high output apps is for the beefier components.

[Moto_Club4AG]

What long grain was saying is the later 20mm piston pin rods are interchangeable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moto_Club4AG]

SirDeuce is correct for the most part. 40mm is inherently weaker in sheer load capacity. But if the blueprint for the application is within the capacity and possibly using custom H beam forged rods, the 40mm will have less friction and should help to extract slightly more power and less heat... But that's always a gamble between power and durability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[burdickjp]

possibly using custom H beam forged rods

I don't think aftermarket rods would be necessary for the greater majority of applications, likely including this one.

I went for aftermarket rods to decrease weight and be able to use 20 mm wrist pin pistons. I'm using 20v pistons and a 20v head.
There are reports of people rebushing 40/18 rods to turn them into 40/20 rods, which may be a good option.