Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

driftpanda86
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:12 am

Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby driftpanda86 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:23 am

Hello all,

I've been in the process of getting my 4agte rolla running on MS for a while now. Guy that built it for me left me hanging to figure it out on my own. So after some time I finally got it right. Everything works now and it runs correctly. Took it to a tuner yesterday and we got it right on the dyno. I was having trouble with sputtering in boost. We messed with the dwell and it cleared up. However he guy told me the ignition seems to be breaking down and didn't think anything over 7psi would be possible. The ignition module was super hot to the touch. He seemed to think this was the problem. We did 4 dyno pulls and each one was 1hp less each time. My ignition setup is stock other than TRD wires and MSD blaster 2 coil. I would like to do coil on plugs. Anyone have info on how I can achieve this? Any help would be great. Also, is the ignition module getting that hot normal? How much power can the stock ignition setup hold?

Info on my engine:
4agze block
Big port head
Stock intake manifold
T3 tvis delete plate
ARP head studs, main studs, and rod bolts
HKS 264 cams with HKS cam gears and T belt
Supertech dual spring valve springs and titanium retainers
TRD head gasket
TRD wires
MSD coil
NGK G-power plugs gapped to .22
T3/T4 turbo .60 cold side .63 hot side
TiAL 38mm wastegate set to 7psi
Megasquirt PCM
Spec stage 3 clutch

Thanks in advance to all who offer help.

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Evo_lucian
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby Evo_lucian » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:30 pm

From my limited experience with MS, hot ignition module is a result of too much dwell.

driftpanda86
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:12 am

Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby driftpanda86 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:54 am

Yea we turned the dwell down some and it was better.

muythaibxr
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:51 pm

Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:38 pm

On my 20v I used the 24 tooth wheel along with one of the G sensors as a crank angle sensor, then used 1zz-fe coils. I used the LED outputs to drive 3 of the coils and created a 4th output in the proto area. From there I wired up the coils in the right order and set my settings properly.

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burdickjp
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Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby burdickjp » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:40 pm

muythaibxr wrote:On my 20v I used the 24 tooth wheel along with one of the G sensors as a crank angle sensor, then used 1zz-fe coils. I used the LED outputs to drive 3 of the coils and created a 4th output in the proto area. From there I wired up the coils in the right order and set my settings properly.


Was this a brand new coil? Does it come with any specs you can put into the Megasquirt? For what it's worth, watch some videos of N2 AE86s and see how many of those monster engines are running the stock distributor.
You could run wasted spark coils, such as used on the smallport 4A-GZE, or Miata coils, or EDIS coils, or whatever. Another option would be to run coil on plug in a wasted spark configuration, which requires only 2 ignition outputs. This can be a stepping-stone to full sequential down the road.

How do your AFRs look? Get the VE tables tuned in?
Pursuing the ideal

muythaibxr
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:51 pm

Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:47 pm

burdickjp wrote:
muythaibxr wrote:On my 20v I used the 24 tooth wheel along with one of the G sensors as a crank angle sensor, then used 1zz-fe coils. I used the LED outputs to drive 3 of the coils and created a 4th output in the proto area. From there I wired up the coils in the right order and set my settings properly.


Was this a brand new coil?


No. I pulled them from a junk yard car.

Does it come with any specs you can put into the Megasquirt?


No. I just lowered dwell until I got stutters at idle, then raised it 1 ms and checked to see if the coils got hot. IIRC I ended up with 2ms dwell, but that is an NA engine.

For what it's worth, watch some videos of N2 AE86s and see how many of those monster engines are running the stock distributor.


Yeah I have seen those. I don't really care though. I didn't want to relocate my distributor so it was easier to go with a COP setup. The way it is it fits fine between the engine and firewall with no hammering.

You could run wasted spark coils, such as used on the smallport 4A-GZE, or Miata coils, or EDIS coils, or whatever.


I ran with 2nd gen rx7 coilpacks for a while but I like my current setup better. It is cleaner.

Another option would be to run coil on plug in a wasted spark configuration, which requires only 2 ignition outputs. This can be a stepping-stone to full sequential down the road.


Indeed.

How do your AFRs look? Get the VE tables tuned in?


I have had them tuned many times. However I am one of the ms2/extra firmware writers, so I rarely have things dialed in because I am constantly testing new features. For example, after I switched to MS3 I had to retune due to going to timed sequential fuel injection, then again after I wrote ITB mode, then again after proper table based on/off VVT was added, then recently I added the ability to table switch based on VVT activation, so I started over on my fuel and ignition tables yet again.

The few times I have had it completely tuned, the AFRs looked great. I have used EAE to make tip-in AFRs smooth and added a little accel pump to get good throttle blip response.
Last edited by muythaibxr on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

burdickjp
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby burdickjp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:40 am

I apologize for quoting. I meant to ask the OP if he was running a new coil or not. Since he's running a 16v, there would be no clearance issues with the distributor.

I've got fully sequential running on my 20v with an MS3 as well.
I don't see considerable change between sequential, batch, and saturation injection under load, but intend on taking advantage of individual cylinder trim.
I'll have to look into recent firmware changes. I've been asking for VVT table blending for a while. I currently have this implemented as VVT table switching in hardware, with the VVT out grounding the table switch pin as well as operating the VVT solenoid.
Pursuing the ideal

muythaibxr
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:37 am

burdickjp wrote:I don't see considerable change between sequential, batch, and saturation injection under load, but intend on taking advantage of individual cylinder trim.


Power wise you should not see much difference. However, getting the injection timing just right will help save some fuel. Going to sequential also helps throttle response (or at least it did for me).

I'll have to look into recent firmware changes. I've been asking for VVT table blending for a while. I currently have this implemented as VVT table switching in hardware, with the VVT out grounding the table switch pin as well as operating the VVT solenoid.


I just made the change over the weekend, so it is sitting in our revision control system but has not yet made it out in an alpha firmware. I intended to test in the car this weekend before we release it.

Ken

burdickjp
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby burdickjp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:02 am

muythaibxr wrote:Power wise you should not see much difference. However, getting the injection timing just right will help save some fuel. Going to sequential also helps throttle response (or at least it did for me).


I'd guess this manifests itself in accel enrichment? I was trying to say I didn't see any significant changes in fueling which would necessitate VE table modifications, so lambda was happy. I would hope this would be expected.

I'm not yet satisfied with my accel enrichment settings, but I haven't really gotten very deep with playing with them.

muythaibxr wrote:I just made the change over the weekend, so it is sitting in our revision control system but has not yet made it out in an alpha firmware. I intended to test in the car this weekend before we release it.


Excellent! Is this table blending, so useful for applications like the 3S-GE BEAMS or 2ZZ, or table switching?
Pursuing the ideal

muythaibxr
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:25 am

burdickjp wrote:
muythaibxr wrote:Power wise you should not see much difference. However, getting the injection timing just right will help save some fuel. Going to sequential also helps throttle response (or at least it did for me).


I'd guess this manifests itself in accel enrichment? I was trying to say I didn't see any significant changes in fueling which would necessitate VE table modifications, so lambda was happy. I would hope this would be expected.


For me I saw my VE numbers go down pretty much across the board once I hit the sweet spot as far as injection timing went. The throttle response improvement comes from changes to fueling getting into the engine sooner during transients than they would with batch injection.


I'm not yet satisfied with my accel enrichment settings, but I haven't really gotten very deep with playing with them.

muythaibxr wrote:I just made the change over the weekend, so it is sitting in our revision control system but has not yet made it out in an alpha firmware. I intended to test in the car this weekend before we release it.


Excellent! Is this table blending, so useful for applications like the 3S-GE BEAMS or 2ZZ, or table switching?


This is switching for on/off VVT like the silver top and black top have. We have no plans for any kind of blending based on our continuously variable VVT support.

muythaibxr
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:16 pm

However, we do support table blending between 2 tables... it just isn't based on VVT support as far as I know. I'll have a look tonight on the bench and confirm that.

Edwin909
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby Edwin909 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:28 am

So much info on the post, I wish I could understand it all:/
I'm having my car tuned soon and I'm running ms2 on a silvertop 20v with edis
Any advice to my tuner, he hasn't tunes any engines with itbs before nor vvt
But he's the only tuner that I know of that has tuned other cars on ms

muythaibxr
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Re: Megasquirt coil on plug questions/ ignition questions

Postby muythaibxr » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:22 am

If you're using ms2, you're probably running batch injection.

Use as many squirts per cycle as you can get away with, and try to get the injector dead times right. This will help throttle response.

Also, have him tune using ITB mode or blended tables. Best of both SD and AN in that case.

MS2 doesn't have the ability to do the things we can do in MS3 for VVT, so just hook that up to an on/off output, and maybe turn it on based on 2 factors: RPM and throttle position. When I had an MS2 I set it to come on above 80% throttle and above 2000-2500 RPM, then I set up my VE tables to have more resolution on the on/off points.

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