Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

904hachiroku
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:42 pm

Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby 904hachiroku » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:57 pm

Hello Club 4AG,

I apologize if I am ignoring any "please make an introduction post" rules, but I lost the user name to my old account and couldn't find a "forgot username" link anywhere.

I made this new account because I have quite an issue on my hands and really need to get my car back up and running.

I have just completed a 4A-GE 20v Blacktop swap into my 87 AE86.

The 86 was originally an automatic SR5, and I have swapped the BT 20v, 5 spd transmission, correct coil/igniter, starter, flywheel, clutch, pilot bearing, Sam Q water kit and Sam Q dizzy kit, a Tweak'd conversion harness (bought directly from Tweakd, not secondhand), etc. etc. etc.

Long story short: The swap has been done by the books and according to every guide out there, nothing is missing, all parts are the correct ones.

For the life of me, I cannot get the car to start. I can get it to turn over and try to crank, but it just won't run. Occasionally it will backfire 2-3 times and then go back to just endless turning over. The backfires are usually accompanied by some smoke leaking out of the mid-pipe, I assume this is normal and just a byproduct of the backfiring.

The following information is all that I have. It is gathered from tests that I have conducted on various systems and just general information gathering.

Gathered Data:
-Head, block, ITB's, fuel rail, igniter/coil, ecu are all grounded
-I am getting fuel to the injectors
-I am getting spark to the spark plug leads
-Appropriate voltage is getting to the injectors and igniter and coil
-Cam position after 1 rotation of the crank: 9 o'clock (facing directly west)
-Cam position after 2 rotations of the crank: 1 o'clock (1 tooth past facing north)
-Distributor rotor is at the 1 position
-Spark plug lead order (displayed as X:Y, where X = Dizzy Cap Number , Y = Spark plug lead number): 1:1, 2:3, 4:4, 3:2
-Backfires when clutch popped/push started
-When the spark plug leads for 2 and 3 are put into normal order (I had them reversed initially, as that's what Sam Q's install video called for), it results in a backfire as well, but the cranking is not as healthy.

I have tested just about everything I can think of and have been recommended to test by other 20v owners.

I would highly appreciate any and all help/advice. I just want my baby back up and running.

Thanks,

-904hachiroku

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jondee86
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:49 pm

Firing order = 1 - 3 - 4 - 2
So with #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke, the rotor should
be closest to the pin that connects to the #1 cylinder. As the camshaft rotates
in a CW direction when viewed from the front of the engine, the next pin in
a CW direction should be the one that connects to cylinder #3, follwed by the
pin that connects to cylinder #4 and finally the pin that connects to cylinder #2.

The dissy body will only fit in one position, so that should be fine. And I guess
that you have clear instructions how to install the SQ adapter to the camshaft
to set the rotor position to the #1 pin when the engine is at tdc on the
compression stroke ? If you set it on the exhaust stroke the timing will be
kind of funky ;)

Make sure your ISCV is installed and working (hose not plugged). Engine will
be flooded by now so pull the plugs, and leave them out overnight. In the
morning Install a fresh set of plugs (cheap ones are fine) or dry your wet plugs
by heating them with a butane torch or similar, and then give it a try.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

phanist
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Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby phanist » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:26 pm

Is your ecu powered up?
Do you have CEL? When key is on ON position?
I was fight with the same problem for a week till i find out i didnt give the ecu a power from ignition switch.. Which mean i can still turn and crank the engine and even get fuel in the rail but ecu wont send fuel in camber to fire her up.

And like johndee said above make sure you turn the crank by hand clock wise till cylinder #1 is at tdc and make sure the dizzy cap rotor is at cylinder number 1 and of course the spark plug wire connected to it respected cylinder.. Get an healthy battery and try again...

Aloha

904hachiroku
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:42 pm

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby 904hachiroku » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:30 pm

phanist wrote:Is your ecu powered up?
Do you have CEL? When key is on ON position?
I was fight with the same problem for a week till i find out i didnt give the ecu a power from ignition switch.. Which mean i can still turn and crank the engine and even get fuel in the rail but ecu wont send fuel in camber to fire her up.

And like johndee said above make sure you turn the crank by hand clock wise till cylinder #1 is at tdc and make sure the dizzy cap rotor is at cylinder number 1 and of course the spark plug wire connected to it respected cylinder.. Get an healthy battery and try again...

Aloha


Car was originally an SR5 so I don't have a CEL to connect up.
How did you fix your ecu power issue? I'll check my ECU with my voltmeter multimeter tomorrow.


ALSO: Does the ISCV need to be grounded too? I have mine separated from the intake manifold as it was required because of Sam Q's water kit, and it isn't exactly grounded at the moment with how it's sitting.

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jondee86
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Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:07 pm

904hachiroku wrote:ALSO: Does the ISCV need to be grounded too? I have mine separated
from the intake manifold as it was required because of Sam Q's water kit,
and it isn't exactly grounded at the moment with how it's sitting.

No. The Iscv has three wires... 12V supply up one and the ECU grounds the
RSC or RCO as required to close or open the valve.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

phanist
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Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby phanist » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:46 am

Hi

Im not sure how your wire harness is made.. As my was made by a different person.. Check your wire harness by ecu plug see if there is any wire label for 12v or send the person who make your wire an email . Check all your wire each and every plug if they are all connected.

My problem was i forget to connect that power wire that was loose . I need to find an 12v power source that get it power after the ignition is turn on.
Remember dont get it direct from battery because that will drain your battery empty.

904hachiroku
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:42 pm

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby 904hachiroku » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Okay, so I went ahead and did the cam timing. Tripple checked the spark plug wires are hooked up right for the dizzy cap since it's relocated. Quadruple checked my grounds. Checked voltage to the ECU (it's getting anywhere from 4 to 8v depending on the wire).

Still will not start.

I tried unplugging the following (1 at a time) to see if that helped [it didn't]: ISCV, TPS, VVT solenoid.

Any more suggestions guys. I'm driving myself crazy over here trying to figure this out, and I just want my car back up and running.

phanist
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby phanist » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:08 am

about the dizzy relocation... did you get your self a new set of plug wire too? did you correctly connect each spark plug wire to the correct cylinder? cylinder #1 to 4 order cam gear to where dizzy base is.. should be firewall side. did you check your spark plug like johndee mention? did you have a MAP sensor plug in?

if you move the iscv did you check to make sure the new hose you use to connect it to the manifold is not bend or sucked close where air can't flow thru? check check...

did you remove your TPS at any point? if so did you check to see if the TPS is correctly set?

Snotcycle
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Re: Please help! Blacktop 20v won't start!!!

Postby Snotcycle » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Are you getting fuel THROUGH your injectors? have you check to see that one or more of them are not stuck open or closed?

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