4a questions for turbo build

[oldeskewltoy]

I would not run Webs. I can get a couple choices that are a better bang for the buck.

Do tell?? What is better bang for the buck?? How are you measuring them? Are you putting each in a dyno, and testing them? Do you have any facts, or just opinion??

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I would not run Webs. I can get a couple choices that are a better bang for the buck.

Do tell?? What is better bang for the buck?? How are you measuring them? Are you putting each in a dyno, and testing them? Do you have any facts, or just opinion??

Cams with similar or better specs for much less money. Especially on a turbo build even if the Web was slightly superior and you had to run say 2 more PSI to get the same amount of power on the poncam it's not worth $200 to get that 2 PSI back.
Heck you could put that $200 towards a better intercooler, meth injection, better engine management, or any number of other things that would make up any power difference if there was any.

[oldeskewltoy]

I would not run Webs. I can get a couple choices that are a better bang for the buck.

Do tell?? What is better bang for the buck?? How are you measuring them? Are you putting each in a dyno, and testing them? Do you have any facts, or just opinion??

Cams with similar or better specs for much less money.

$60 is not a couple hundred....

http://www.alamomotorsports.com/webcam/toyota.html#a5 - Web cams for $591.00

Now as to specs... the lift on the Tomei Poncams(264 type) is 8.15, the similar Web (577) they have 8.38. The Web has less total duration, having much less ramp, while having more duration at almost any measured lift point (either 1mm, or .050")...

so how are they better... when they aren't even similar.....

[alltracfreak]

What can the stock valve train handle

[yoshimitsuspeed]

$60 is not a couple hundred....

http://www.alamomotorsports.com/webcam/toyota.html#a5 - Web cams for $591.00

Now as to specs... the lift on the Tomei Poncams(264 type) is 8.15, the similar Web (577) they have 8.38. The Web has less total duration, having much less ramp, while having more duration at almost any measured lift point (either 1mm, or .050")...

so how are they better... when they aren't even similar.....

Well this is the first time I have seen them advertised below MSRP.
I should note that I can get Web cams and if anyone is interested in them I don't want to scare them away from coming to me for a price.
I have however had the most experience and by far the most orders on the Poncams. I have had many people come back telling me it was one of the best bang for the buck mods they have done to their car including other cams they had tried in the past.
Now when I say similar I mean a similar range of performance. The Poncam and Kelford are actually quite similar. The Web does have a slightly different profile but the 101 and 577 are both marketed in a similar performance range as the Poncam. They are designed to work with stock EFI and give moderate gains in the mid to high without significant loss down low. I hadn't looked in depth on the comparison of the two specs I just know the Poncams perform very well for what they are and for the price.

As for dynos these are the only ones I have.

Yours with aftermarket engine management and a beautiful AFR



Short and sweet
AE92 smallport head - ported
Web 577 camshafts, T3 timing pulleys set to 111 degrees

AE92 high comp block w squiters plugged, decked, stock head gasket
Euro TVIS pistons(10 to 1)
final measure compression ratio of 10.75 to 1
AE86 "small" crank w 40mm rod journals, lightened, shotpeened, and balanced "3 rib bluetop type"
AE86 small connecting rods - lightened, shotpeened and balanced
wrist pins are aftermarket steel 64 grams vs 89 grams for stock
blacktop flywheel w AE92 clutch
crank pulley is OEM 2 row, machined and rebalanced as a single row

KBD 4/2/1 header
Brave 60mm exhaust

FJO racing management
sequential injection
wasted spark ignition

running on 92 octane fuel


And MR2tailbrakers which has a lot less mods, less head work, LP head, and stock engine management running way too rich.
Compression around 11:1
Poncams
Wisco customs made to my design
Stock ECU and electronics
No cam gears
Conservative timing

He makes as much or more power till 4200 where his AFRs go terribly rich and even after that doesn't fail far behind all the way to redline.

[oldeskewltoy]

lets see... you mis-represented just a few variables... mr2trailbreaker was using 40psi in his tires, I was using 30. His is transverse drivetrain, mine is longitudinal (greater drivetrain loss). You also failed to mention that mine was running with a 6mm vacuum leak Also... comparing 2 dynos at different times and places....


just because you have no experience with something means you bash them, "I would not run Webs"... but then you moderate yourself..." I hadn't looked in depth on the comparison of the two specs I just know the Poncams perform very well"


You are building a dyno... instead of jumping to conclusions, and SPREADING MANURE why not do the tests...

[oldeskewltoy]

What can the stock valve train handle

Stock OEM valve springs can handle about 8+mm valve lift... or 8.18 to 8.20 of cam lift (valve lift = cam lift - valve clearance) The Pon cams(264 type) @ 8.15 will fit... and so will the smaller Web (296 grind = 256 type) 8.18

With either Toda, or TRD springs you can run cams up to about 10.3 lift. With cams over 8.8 or 8.9mm you should look into either solid buckets(1SZ type), or shim under type.

With cams over 9.8mm lift you need to modify the head so the cams clear the buckets.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

lets see... you mis-represented just a few variables... mr2trailbreaker was using 40psi in his tires, I was using 30. His is transverse drivetrain, mine is longitudinal (greater drivetrain loss). You also failed to mention that mine was running with a 6mm vacuum leak Also... comparing 2 dynos at different times and places....


just because you have no experience with something means you bash them, "I would not run Webs"... but then you moderate yourself..." I hadn't looked in depth on the comparison of the two specs I just know the Poncams perform very well"


You are building a dyno... instead of jumping to conclusions, and SPREADING MANURE why not do the tests...

I can't wait to do the tests. Unfortunately we are not there yet.

I don't think I have spread any manure. I haven't bashed Web cams or said that they are bad.
All I said is that the Poncams sell increadibly well and result in very high customer satisfaction and respectable dyno numbers (a least as far as NA 4As go).
For an NA build I would still choose the poncam over the Web even at $60 more. For a turbo build I would either go with the poncams for price or pay just a little more for the Kelford.
This is my opinion and I don't think I have tried to convince anyone it's any more than that.
Obviously the dynos aren't an apples to apples comparison but I thought there was plenty of commonality to show the poncams hold their own against the webs. If he can get his AFRs dialed in and timing advanced a couple more degrees there should be a good bit more power there.

[jinx]

i'm no 'fanboy' by any stretch, but... for a 4age i'd stick to JDM brands. Solely because of consistently impressive results.
Take the ca18det for instance, there r a crapload of HKS and Tomei cammed beasts.
One street ca18 was well over 500 atw thru a stock intake manifold with mild tomei 260 hydraulics

Seen way too many sh1ty examples from crower, web, etc....
Look how they couldn't even grind an "hks equivalent" when the DSM market was ripe and beggin for it.
Comp cams came years later, with a $440 alternative to the ~$680 hks benchmark
Infinite ways to get a cam wrong, even with the same specs
if u gonna go with those 'lesser' brands.... do your homework

[onnaj]

What can the stock valve train handle

Stock OEM valve springs can handle about 8+mm valve lift... or 8.18 to 8.20 of cam lift (valve lift = cam lift - valve clearance) The Pon cams(264 type) @ 8.15 will fit... and so will the smaller Web (296 grind = 256 type) 8.18

With either Toda, or TRD springs you can run cams up to about 10.3 lift. With cams over 8.8 or 8.9mm you should look into either solid buckets(1SZ type), or shim under type.

With cams over 9.8mm lift you need to modify the head so the cams clear the buckets.

If he chooses for a 20v it's already shim under btw.

[alltracfreak]

Im probably going to get a ae101 gze swap and i would like to keep stock valve train if all possible. Not sure what rpm stock valve springs can handle before floating starts. My friend said that deltacams sell a 272 regrind for 250$ but ive never delt with them and i feel as if you pay for what you get

[Rogue-AE95]

Yoshi, about a year ago you told me that stock early BP cams would be sufficient to reach 300 HP for a turbo build. That choosing aftermarket cams was less important, at least early in a build. Just wondering what changed that advice?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Yoshi, about a year ago you told me that stock early BP cams would be sufficient to reach 300 HP for a turbo build. That choosing aftermarket cams was less important, at least early in a build. Just wondering what changed that advice?

He said he wanted 350-400 down the road. If your goals are 300 then I would say start working towards that before considering cams. In the 250-300 range they will start to become a benefit in helping the top end breath but above that they are going to be much more important. If those are his ultimate goals then he could get cams now and start tuning around that or he could start building up to it now and get cams later. Any way he does it they will be very important once he starts pushing past that 300 mark. Revs will also be important. Running bigger cams and higher RPM now would allow him to get familiar with tuning that type of motor before pushing things further.

[Rogue-AE95]

OK, makes sense. I'm pretty far from getting my engine finished, but I did already buy early bigport cams for it.

[saifmansour]

How much hp can the 16v rods handle ? And if the power goal was 250 hp , would it be safe for the stock valves and cams ?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I always laugh when people rate rods by a HP number. RPMS are much more stressful on cams than boost. The bigger late LP rods have been pushed over 500 hp with ARP hardware and boost.
If you are keeping redline under 9k you should be fine.