puking oil out exhaust

[supo4]

so i have pulled the head on my 86 ae86 because it started to puke oil out the tailpipe. a couple things i have found the pistons were covered in carbon along with the valves. oil sitting on top of the valves and the intake manifold was absolutely filled with black tar more or less. just to add on to the fun the car had taken the carbon built up on the valves and turned it white as bone. anyone have an explanation for this calamity?

[jondee86]

Man!!! I love a mystery

My guess is the rings gave up the fight (has the engine done 350,000 miles ?)
and you got a heap of blowby. That pushed oil and fumes out the cam cover
vent and into the intake manifold, where it got sucked back into the engine
and burned. Compression would have been low, so it didn't burn too well, and
the half burned oil condensed in the exhaust system. Eventually it works its
way to the end and pukes on the ground.

White on top of the valves ? Exhaust valves ? I would have expected the
carbon to be black. White does not mesh with the above guess, so maybe
someone else has a better theory ?

Cheers... jondee86

[oldeskewltoy]

just to add on to the fun the car had taken the carbon built up on the valves and turned it white as bone. anyone have an explanation for this calamity?

exhaust valves can do that.........

4AGE head....





Ford/Mazda head...

[supo4]

So should I rebuild it or swap it because I want a lil more power and if it cost 3000 to swap it and 2500 to rebuild it why not sway it because I'm going to have to rebuild the trans in it because the t50 is made of glass so I've heard and it's already popping out of second

[yoshimitsuspeed]

What do you want out of the car?
What are your power goals?
What do you do with the car?

I kind of hate it when people say things like the T50 is made of glass. I mean after all the thing lasted 30 years just to get you here.
If you rebuilt it and rebuilt your engine with some modest power upgrades it would likely last another 30.
Notoriously weak transmissions don't reliably do that.

Now if you have plans for 250 hp and love to go out and clutch kick it all day every day then yeah it may not last long because it wasn't designed for that. If that is your goal then you may be better off upgrading to something else.
It does suck there aren't more bolt on options for the transverse layout since the 4AGE has plenty in it to meet most peoples needs the trans on the other hand doesn't have the ability to keep up with the 4AGEs potential.
If you do want a lot of power and do plan on going drifting or drag racing every weekend then I think you need to answer a lot more questions before you figure out what path is best for you and what engine and or transmission upgrade might be best.

[oldeskewltoy]

So should I rebuild it or swap it because I want a lil more power and if it cost 3000 to swap it and 2500 to rebuild it why not sway it because I'm going to have to rebuild the trans in it because the t50 is made of glass so I've heard and it's already popping out of second

Here is what you end up with.... a swap is still a used engine... with all the possible problems a used anything brings to the table. Now with a proper rebuild, in essence you have a new engine, nothing used, unless it has been checked and is still within tolerance.


A properly rebuilt engine is better than a new engine... yes BETTER...

here is why..... new engines have new blocks and new cranks, they have not gone through thousands of heat cycles and stabilized, a solid used block, and crank have been cycled thousands of times, they are far more stable then their new counterparts.


As to the transmission solution... read my signature....

[supo4]

I just want it to be dependable with maybe 20-30 more hp and I want it to be semi cost effective another thing is I've never rebuilt a motor period so I will be opening up a can of worms I've never felt with so I'm intimidated if that's understandable

[oldeskewltoy]

I just want it to be dependable with maybe 20-30 more hp and I want it to be semi cost effective another thing is I've never rebuilt a motor period so I will be opening up a can of worms I've never felt with so I'm intimidated if that's understandable

VERY understandable!!!

Before you do anything... Do you have a copy of the factory service manual? Inside it can guide you, and anyone you choose to help you. EVERY important detail needed to rebuild your engine is in there. There are digital versions in many places (sorry I don't have the links, but I'm pretty sure others have them)

After you get the manual, you next need to shop around your town, or area for a machine shop capable of doing the machine work you will need to have performed. There are details in the factory service manual(FSM) that you can use to find a shop capable - these details are the bearing clearances, as well as machining details. You want to find a machine shop who can perform machine work on the 4AG to the factory tolerances.

Once you have a machine shop, then you can proceed further.....


As to 20-30hp more... very accurate machining will get you 5+hp... a compression bump another 10. Finally a mild cam should finish your desires.

Do you have to be concerned about emissions??

[supo4]

I have a manual over 4age and 4agze motors as a pdf i don't know if its a fSm and I know a shop that works on 4age motors often for autocross guys so they are dependable but what is the estimated cost of all of this and is oem a necessity or is there a brand that is okay to use for rebuilding. also I do not have emissions

[gotzoom?]

To add to what OST said, be sure to measure everything before you spend any money. The FSM has the procedure. For example, if your cylinder bores are out of spec, you'll need to overbore the block, which is around a $200 expense, plus you will need oversized pistons. That may make it a better choice to source a block that is in spec so you can reuse your existing pistons (assuming they are in spec.) The same goes with the head and the internals. The big mistake that a lot of people make is to assume that they just need to replace bearings, rings, seals and gaskets and they'll have a reliable engine. If the reused parts are out of spec, you're bound to run in to reliability problems.

[gotzoom?]

...what is the estimated cost of all of this and is oem a necessity or is there a brand that is okay to use for rebuilding. also I do not have emissions

Cost depends on how much of your existing stuff can be resused. I would expect the valve parts are all resuable. I would expect the crankshaft and connecting rods are reusable. I would not assume that anything else is reusable, but they may be. If the head is not flat enough to deck or the cylinder bores are out of round, they may not be worth reusing.

There are plenty of 3rd party companies that make rebuild stuff for the 4AGE engine. My current race engine was built completely with Felpro seals and gaskets and Sealed Power rings and bearings. It has been 100% reliable and has not had any problems in about 5,000 miles of track running. I measured the bearings and rings before I assembled the engine and found that the Sealed Power bearings and rings are exactly (I mean perfectly exactly) in the middle of the FSM specified tolerances.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I have a manual over 4age and 4agze motors as a pdf i don't know if its a fSm and I know a shop that works on 4age motors often for autocross guys so they are dependable but what is the estimated cost of all of this and is oem a necessity or is there a brand that is okay to use for rebuilding. also I do not have emissions

If you pay a shop to do all the work this could be very expensive.
If you pay just a machine shop to do the stuff that requires expensive equipment and inspection tools then do the rest yourself it will be much cheaper.
With that said the total cost can vary a lot from area to area and shop to shop.
There is a lot of stuff that can be bought aftermarket that is just as good as OEM or better.
There is even more crap that you want to steer away from.
There are a few things that as much as I hate it I'd still recommend OEM.
We would need to know what you were looking for to make recommendations more detailed than that.

[supo4]

I would do the assembly myself but what can I do to help give u guys a better idea of what I need to do and the head and value checked out the seals are bad so that saved a little but my main concern on cost is part how much will that run me

[supo4]

And Saying I get a step up can and 10:1 Pistons

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Some things you won't know until you get in there. Others you will need to make a judgement call on.
For example I recommend replacing the oil pump and would plan that from the start but you could wait till you get in there and inspect it and then see if it's healthy and in spec and then make the judgement call on whether you want to roll the dice on it.
Same goes for the pistons. I would plan on going oversized from the get go but you could see if you can get away with a hone and rings.
You would want to do things like bottom end bearings but you won't know till it gets inspected whether you will need std bearings or if they will be machined for undersized.
You will definitely want to do valve seals but won't know till it's inspected if you need valve guides.

Cometic is the only non OEM gasket kit I would run. I hate giving Toyota money but their gasket kits are good as well.
For Bearings I prefer ACL but I can also get the other big names. My second choice would probably be King.
If you want to do a power upgrade at the same time this would be my recommendation.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... nd-pistons

For oil pump and water pump I would only run Aisin or OEM.

There are a lot of other bits and pieces that you kind of need to address as you go.

[oldeskewltoy]

Ok... you have a shop with 4AGE experience, and you have a FSM...

What tools do you have? You will NEED an accurate torque wrench. You will NEED a 10mm 12 point socket to remove, or install the head. The rest of the hand tools should be simple enough. You will NEED an engine stand ($50 @ Harbor Freight, or check CL... sometimes they are free on CL). You will probably need (borrow not buy) a "cherry picker" aka engine crane.

Read, and comprehend each section of the FSM BEFORE you attempt ANYTHING. Get yourself a box of quart sized plastic bags. When you disassemble something, add a note as to what the parts are for and put all the parts and the note in the bag. For example when you remove the intake manifold you will find a few nuts, a few bolts that mount it to the engine. put all the nuts and bolts and other small bits(washers, vacuum parts) into the bag, along with a note. on one side describe what they are for, and on the other side put a number. Put the same number on the intake manifold, and the TVIS plate (part of the intake), and the support rod that supports the manifold. You can try tape, but a twist tie with a paper or some kind of tag works best. By numbering all the parts you can make sure they all go back later when you re-assemble it.

Some things require a specific loosening, and/or tightening pattern. In particular I'm speaking about the cylinder head. Read and fully comprehend this section... ask us if you have any doubts.

If you have a digital camera... find a place who can host you pics... pics are the best reference for asking/answering most questions

[allencr]

WOW!
The first reply to the OP should have been " puking oil out the exhaust" is not true and you have never seen it. It is simply condensation - a combustion product, that's all.
Pistons & valves are supposed to have carbon buildup, unless it's almost new, has detonation/pinging/spark knock or a water leak into the combustion chamber.
Intake tracts are often filled with burnt oil/smegma/residue from the PVC & excess blowby.
Most if not all exhaust valves would be white if the engine hadn't last been idling for a while.

[supo4]

This is oil that it is throwing out not just condensation because I pulled the header off the car and ran it to watch and see if oil was dripping down from the valves and being thrown out of the exhaust and it was.thats why I pulled the head I also understand that it should have carbon built up but I have never seen that much on the top of a set of Pistons It was every bit of 1-2 cm thick. I do not know if the car had gotten hot and cause it to mess up the scraper rings. I'm not sure because im getting 160-165 on my comp. so the only way to know what I need to do is put the heads back on hope for the best or dig deeper into the motor :/

[oldeskewltoy]

This is oil that it is throwing out not just condensation because I pulled the header off the car and ran it to watch and see if oil was dripping down from the valves and being thrown out of the exhaust and it was.thats why I pulled the head I also understand that it should have carbon built up but I have never seen that much on the top of a set of Pistons It was every bit of 1-2 cm thick. I do not know if the car had gotten hot and cause it to mess up the scraper rings. I'm not sure because im getting 160-165 on my comp. so the only way to know what I need to do is put the heads back on hope for the best or dig deeper into the motor :/

You have the head off.... you say you see oil dripping down the valve stems... at the very least have the head overhauled.

[totta crolla]

It was every bit of 1-2 cm thick.

Really, I mean..... really ?

[jondee86]

If you get 160-165 across all four cylinders, then the rings can't
be that bad. If you know the stem seals are bad, replace them
and go with a new head gasket until you are sure what you want
to do. Meantime you have had some hands-on time with the
tools you need for pulling down the engine.

You will need a torque wrench for putting the head back on, so
add that to your tool kit. The more you work on your engine the
more confident you will be tackling other maintenance/repairs.

Cheers... jondee86

[oldeskewltoy]

Don't forget the head comes off, and goes back on using DIFFERENT patterns.......

[supo4]

Well guys I got a call from the machine shop and my stem seals on my valves are the wrong size someone had pulled the head off of my car before I got it and placed the wrong size seals in them that explains all the symptoms I've had so thank you for all of the imputand advice. I'm still going to rebuild the car just to make sure it's all good if anyone has a link to a fsm they know is good I'd love to have it. Once again thank you guys so much

[jondee86]

FSM, Factory Service Manuals, Where to get! - REFERENCE by AEU86.org

Cheers... jondee86

[mr2mk1hero]

I just want it to be dependable with maybe 20-30 more hp and I want it to be semi cost effective another thing is I've never rebuilt a motor period so I will be opening up a can of worms I've never felt with so I'm intimidated if that's understandable

You have no idea how much I can relate to do that. You are now exactly where I was a few months ago. And you seem to have the same goals as I have. You have the benefit of having acces to a shop with 4age experience. The only difference being I am working on an MR2.

In regards to OEM. There is no need to use OEM for everything. Using OEM for some things is a good idea though. I bought a full rebuild gasket set from toyota. Coat me 350 USD. Sounds a lot but you can be sure they will last, they wont leak and they will fit perfectly if installed properly. Dont save on gaskets. they may not look like it but they are crucial.

Here's a rough estimate for you if you want to disasemble and re-assemble the engine yourself and increase the hp by some 20/30 maybe even more hp. These are very rough figures but should help you get the general idea.
Tools
Tools - (torque wrench, socket wrenches, etc. etc.) - 200 - 500 USD depending on what you have. You can borrow a lot.
Engine stand - 50 -100 USD
Rent an engine crane - 20-50 USD?
Engine parts
Full set of toyota gaskets
Conrod and crank bearings - 200-250 USD
All the machine work (mild porting, combustion chamber deshrouding, 3angle valve job, head shave/block shave) - 1000 USD or so.
Tip: Send the head to OST if you want things to be really great and done very professionally. I dont know where you life, but if youre not far from him and dont have to pay a lot for the shipping it is probably a great idea.
New aisin oil pump and water pump - 90 USD
Timing belt and tensioner - 160 USD
Engine upgrades
Aftermarket cams - 500 USD
Pistons - 50-60 USD for cast / 400-500 for forged. Increase the compression if you get cams
uprated valve springs - 150 USD
piston rings - 150USD
connecting rods - 150 for used OEM (maybe blacktop) / 380 USD for lightweight forged aftermarket
megasquirt standalone pnp - 900 USD (you dont need this but it makes ht emost of your cams)
Transmission parts
Used transmission 500-800 USD
tranmssion rebuild kit 300-400 USD
Labour - 200-300 USD?
New clutch kit - 150 USD
Flywheel - 100+ for a used one. 30 USD for resurfacing the one you have. 350 for lightweight aftermarket