Good or bad option for a 4age turbo

[xploding-twincam]

Hi Guys
I have stock twincam turbo with stock internals.
Boosting at 0.6bar on ze injectors but due to my cam timing off im getting away with this.
I cant drop boost due to the waste gate spring set on default 0.6bar.
So i have two options
1.Rebuild motor 8 k plus OR
2.So I have a second option.
Based on my Wastegate spring is on 0.6 bar boost.
And I only can keep that boost due to off cam timing.
I'm thinking of maybe replacing my head gasket to a 1.6mm or a 2mm to drop the compression.
That should get the comp down to like 9.5.1.
Fit water meth , set cam timing ,up Fuel pressure to 3bar. Will this be a good move to get around 140 fkw+-.
Or is is it to dangerous due to stock pistons and rods?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Do you mean you are running GZE injectors on the stock ECU or do you have engine management?
Do you have a wideband?
Do you have knock monitoring?
What do you mean about your cam timing being off? Do you mean ignition timing? Either way you need to give much more info as to how, why and how you are monitoring the effects.
If you have reached the limits of the motor then your best bet is to build it properly.
What do you mean 8k?

Have you researched squish/quench? This is a very important aspect to properly tuning a motor. The bigger your squench gap the more likely the motor will be to detonate. Many engine builders have actually seen detonation get worse when running a thicker HG with lower compression and bigger squench gap.
The stock 4AGE HG puts this gap very close to the outside range of what most would consider acceptable.
I would consider running a thicker HG about one of the worst possible options.

Boost is not particularly hard on rods or pistons. It's detonation that kills them.

It doesn't sound to me like you have done a lot of research on this subject. Either that or you just need to provide a lot more information here.

You say you are aiming for 140 FWKW do you mean flywheel KW or front wheel KW?
Even a mediocre tune .6 bar should put you at 110 WKW which should already be well over 140 Fflywheel WKW.
On the other hand if you are on the stock ECU and want 140 WKW while I fully believe it would be possible to get more out of the stock ECU I do not believe it is the practical route. You will spend so much time and money that you will have been better off going to aftermarket engine management. If you are running 365 injectors I sure hope you are running anftermarket engine management. If you are then 140 WKW should be no problem at all. Just keep it from detonating and you are golden.

To give some perspective I am running about .55 bar on a blacktop on stock pistons at 11:1 compression on a GZE ECU. In comparison you aren't pushing things hard at all.
On this ECU I know I could run a little more. WIth aftermarket engine management I know I could run even more.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/yos ... oing-4a-ge

[xploding-twincam]

Let me clear things up with comments below in your post.

Do you mean you are running GZE injectors on the stock ECU or do you have engine management? - Gze injectors on After market ECU
Do you have a wideband? - NO
Do you have knock monitoring? - No
What do you mean about your cam timing being off? - The cam timing seems to be a tooth off, due to this a get low down power but no pull high up in the rev
Do you mean ignition timing? -No , cam off by a tooth
Either way you need to give much more info as to how, why and how you are monitoring the effects. - No monitoring but dyno tuned
If you have reached the limits of the motor then your best bet is to build it properly. - I think im far from that.
What do you mean 8k? - 8 k is R8000 South africa rands 800$ +-

Have you researched squish/quench? - No but i do have some understanding.
This is a very important aspect to properly tuning a motor. The bigger your squench gap the more likely the motor will be to detonate.
Many engine builders have actually seen detonation get worse when running a thicker HG with lower compression and bigger squench gap. - Why?
The stock 4AGE HG puts this gap very close to the outside range of what most would consider acceptable. - HKS makes a 1.6mm and 2mm HG but
I would consider running a thicker HG about one of the worst possible options. - why? this is for a low boost setup

Boost is not particularly hard on rods or pistons. - I agree , as long as you dont shock the engine IE rods with boost
It's detonation that kills them. - Yes i agree but this is due to many factors hence the water injection to lower the intake temp and fuel air mix,

It doesn't sound to me like you have done a lot of research on this subject.- I have done alot, i know a 4age small port can handle 0.5bar boost for everyday driving, i just have issues trying to get this done as i have other factors that are impacting this setup.
Either that or you just need to provide a lot more information here. - More info yes im going to provide as much as i can now.

You say you are aiming for 140 FWKW do you mean flywheel KW or front wheel KW? - Fly wheel KW
Even a mediocre tune .6 bar should put you at 110 WKW which should already be well over 140 Fflywheel WKW. - Im only getting like 125 whp / 115 fly wheel KW,
On the other hand if you are on the stock ECU and want 140 WKW while I fully believe it would be possible to get more out of the stock ECU I do not believe it is the practical route. You will spend so much time and money that you will have been better off going to aftermarket engine management. - Yes after market in the only way.
If you are running 365 injectors I sure hope you are running anftermarket engine management. If you are then 140 WKW should be no problem at all. Just keep it from detonating and you are golden.

To give some perspective I am running about .55 bar on a blacktop on stock pistons at 11:1 compression on a GZE ECU. In comparison you aren't pushing things hard at all. - Im very impressed with this, im now thinking the lower comp on the small port can take 0.6bar and live for sure.
On this ECU I know I could run a little more. WIth aftermarket engine management I know I could run even more.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/yos ... oing-4a-ge

So again i want to run 0.6Bar boost on my small port moter with FMIC and after market ecu, its going to use 365 GZE injectors.
I want to know if i can use a Thicker HG to drop the comp a little,and use water meth to run safely on 06bar.

The reason im getting away with the 0.6bar boost on the stock motor is the cam timing being off ,thats the reason im not making the power i should at 0.6bar.
I feel with the setup right i should make close to 140 fly wheel kw.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Squish area and squish gap are very very important to the way a motor performs. For the life of me I don't understand why HKS sells a 1.6 and 2mm HG. Only reason I can think is for people who need to seriously deck the block. Even then it doesn't seem like it would be a big seller. Strange considering HKS seems to be largely dropping support on the 4AGE. It may just be that they had a lot in stock and are still trying to unload it with no plans on making more. IDK.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=77431

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=18058

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=290030

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_squish.shtml

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/downl ... squish.pdf

I'm glad to hear you are running engine management.

You absolutely need to fix your cam timing.
Was it dyno tuned a tooth off? How did this originally happen? Why? This is not helping you in any way.
I would highly suggest buying a wideband and building a DIY detcan or buying some sort of knock monitoring.

I don't know what you mean by shocking the rods but under normal circumstances there is no such thing. The only thing that would shock the pistons or rods is detonation.
It is good to know you are running a smallport. This will mean you can't run as much boost because of the increased compression but it also means you will make more power per PSI.
One thing you could do is get a slightly larger cam. This will move your VE curve higher in the rev range making it less likely to detonate. You will be able to run a little more boost and make more power per PSI.
You could also definitely switch to meth injection but I would get your current setup dialed in before going there. Injection will allow you to run more boost and make more power but if you use it like that it will be very dangerous if for some reason it stops working unless you have a failsafe setup where the ECU can compensate if it does.

This is a stock largeport motor at 7 PSI on the stock ECU.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records ... ia_148.jpg

You should be able to wreck that dyno with your setup.

[xploding-twincam]

Reply in your post.

Squish area and squish gap are very very important to the way a motor performs. For the life of me I don't understand why HKS sells a 1.6 and 2mm HG. Only reason I can think is for people who need to seriously deck the block. Even then it doesn't seem like it would be a big seller. Strange considering HKS seems to be largely dropping support on the 4AGE. It may just be that they had a lot in stock and are still trying to unload it with no plans on making more. IDK.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=77431

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=18058

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=290030

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_squish.shtml

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/downl ... squish.pdf
-*I will read up on the above
I'm glad to hear you are running engine management. -in SA its a very cheap option but lack the features well besides fuel and timing nothing else comes as an extra.

You absolutely need to fix your cam timing. - I agree, tuner said if I do sort the cam timing out my comp is to high and I need to drop it before tuning.
Was it dyno tuned a tooth off? How did this originally happen? Why?I had a back yard mac change my cam belt and he said it was one tooth of and he set it the cam off.
This is not helping you in any way.
I would highly suggest buying a wideband and building a DIY detcan or buying some sort of knock monitoring. - yez its a good move but I want a good ecu for this. Like the ecu you are selling.

I don't know what you mean by shocking the rods but under normal circumstances there is no such thing. -shocking I mean iz boost coming In hard .could break rods.
The only thing that would shock the pistons or rods is detonation. -hence the thicker HG and water meth.
It is good to know you are running a smallport. This will mean you can't run as much boost because of the increased compression but it also means you will make more power per PSI.
One thing you could do is get a slightly larger cam. This will move your VE curve higher in the rev range making it less likely to detonate. You will be able to run a little more boost and make more power per PSI.
You could also definitely switch to meth injection but I would get your current setup dialed in before going there. Injection will allow you to run more boost and make more power but if you use it like that it will be very dangerous if for some reason it stops working unless you have a failsafe setup where the ECU can compensate if it does.

This is a stock largeport motor at 7 PSI on the stock ECU.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records ... ia_148.jpg

You should be able to wreck that dyno with your setup.

So im going to be a hard head.and ask if I run my small port on stock internals. @0.6bar boost with gze injectors. Water meth and a thicker HG.will my car be ok? Am I doing enough to ensure my stock motor can handle 0.6bar?
Also can you explain why there is so much of a difference lowering comp with low comp pistons vs thicker HG.
From my understanding they work well for based on your gain.pistons large amount of comp being dropped and HG small amount.
Am I missing something above?

[xploding-twincam]

Yes it was dyno tuned

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Did your tuner have any ability to detect knock or were they just assuming it would not work?
Any engine builder who suggested running the TB a tooth off would never see my business again. That is horrible advice.

A thicker HG will be a total crap shoot. Maybe it will lower compression enough to make it less likely to detonate. Maybe loosing all effective squish area will make it much more likely to detonate. Either way you are trying to cure a cold by cutting off the leg or however that saying goes.
The difference between running a thicker headgasket vs lower compression pistons is that a well setup lower compression piston can have a stock or even better thinner than stock squish gap.
Here is a pic of GZE pistons.

Here are NA pistons


And a super high comp 13.5:1 piston designed by me, made by CP.


Now that ring around the outside is the squish pad. On all of these pistons the squish gap is the same. The 4A pistons sit about flat with the deck so run a .8mm HG all of these pistons will have about a .8mm squish gap. This will be a very good gap and should give excellent squish and quench.
My piston actually is close enough to the dome of the combustion chamber to serve as extra squish area.
I should note that if you use any shelf piston or pistons not designed by me you will need to get the compression height and calculate the squish gap because all the aftermarket piston makers get this number pretty wrong.

Now if you used any of the above pistons with a 2mm HG you will have a 2mm squish gap which will effectively loose all benefits of having a squish pad as it's too far away.

Am I doing enough to ensure my stock motor can handle 0.6bar?

Your question is invalid because it would still be possible to blow up your motor at .4 bar without a good tune and I have seen people tune without trouble to 1 bar with all stock internals.
So no I can never ensure your motor can handle any boost but it should be possible to run a lot more boost than you currently are without touching the motor.
This assumes you guys get gas somewhat comparable to what we have over here.
I'd be confident trying to tune a smallport to .6 bar on our lowest octane gas here.

I don't think compression is your biggest concern. I also don't think engine management are your biggest concern. I do think you are going about it a bit backwards.
Lower the compression and you can still blow up your motor if you can't monitor it.
Get better engine management and how are you going to tune it without being able to monitor it?
I do not trust your tuner the slightest little bit. It also does not sound like he had proper monitoring equipment to tune it well.
You say it was tuned on a dyno. If the tuner even let the car on the dyno with bad cam timing I already don't trust them but did they use a wideband? Did they use any form of detonation monitoring? Did they push it to the point of light detonation and then back it off? Or are they just assuming it will detonate?

[xploding-twincam]

Feedback in your quotes

Did your tuner have any ability to detect knock or were they just assuming it would not work? - Im not sure how he did detect knock,
Any engine builder who suggested running the TB a tooth off would never see my business again. That is horrible advice.

A thicker HG will be a total crap shoot. Maybe it will lower compression enough to make it less likely to detonate. Maybe loosing all effective squish area will make it much more likely to detonate. Either way you are trying to cure a cold by cutting off the leg or however that saying goes.
The difference between running a thicker headgasket vs lower compression pistons is that a well setup lower compression piston can have a stock or even better thinner than stock squish gap.
Here is a pic of GZE pistons.

Here are NA pistons


And a super high comp 13.5:1 piston designed by me, made by CP.


Now that ring around the outside is the squish pad. On all of these pistons the squish gap is the same. The 4A pistons sit about flat with the deck so run a .8mm HG all of these pistons will have about a .8mm squish gap. This will be a very good gap and should give excellent squish and quench.
My piston actually is close enough to the dome of the combustion chamber to serve as extra squish area.
I should note that if you use any shelf piston or pistons not designed by me you will need to get the compression height and calculate the squish gap because all the aftermarket piston makers get this number pretty wrong.

Now if you used any of the above pistons with a 2mm HG you will have a 2mm squish gap which will effectively loose all benefits of having a squish pad as it's too far away.

Am I doing enough to ensure my stock motor can handle 0.6bar?

Your question is invalid because it would still be possible to blow up your motor at .4 bar without a good tune and I have seen people tune without trouble to 1 bar with all stock internals.
So no I can never ensure your motor can handle any boost but it should be possible to run a lot more boost than you currently are without touching the motor.
This assumes you guys get gas somewhat comparable to what we have over here.
I'd be confident trying to tune a smallport to .6 bar on our lowest octane gas here.
- Based on the above , im asking from a motor point of view if its safe to even take it for a tune, the Tuner uses a wideband sensor and listens for Knock and Ping/Pinking of the motor by adding loading on the dyno when working with the timing.

I don't think compression is your biggest concern. - Great:)
I also don't think engine management are your biggest concern. - Great
I do think you are going about it a bit backwards. - Why? i have two options as i say , one is to use ZE 8.9 pistons to decompress or use a 1.6mm HG.
Lower the compression and you can still blow up your motor if you can't monitor it. - I agree thats with the tuning side i do know that, but all your facts are from your current setup, im under the impression that my comp is to high and not good for boost , i do know that its the tune that breaks motors yes , but the margin for tuning safe and on the edge is based on what you bring to the table, smaller margin for error with a high comp motor then a low comp motor, am i making sense here?
Get better engine management and how are you going to tune it without being able to monitor it? - The tuner has the tools to check EGT and air fuel ratio.
I do not trust your tuner the slightest little bit. It also does not sound like he had proper monitoring equipment to tune it well.
You say it was tuned on a dyno. If the tuner even let the car on the dyno with bad cam timing I already don't trust them but did they use a wideband? - He didnt know the cam timing was off as he he was only doing my tuning.Yes wideband was used
Did they use any form of detonation monitoring?- Im sure if he did,
Did they push it to the point of light detonation and then back it off? - Dont think he did, he did do a safe tune but.
Or are they just assuming it will detonate?

From my side as i do know and explained above , the difference of the low comp motor and a high comp motor is the margin of a safe tune.
Im just trying to make sure that i have a motor that can help with this safe tune by adding the above, but based on you , 0.6bar is ok to tune but the tuning has to be good to keep my motor safe.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

- Based on the above , im asking from a motor point of view if its safe to even take it for a tune, the Tuner uses a wideband sensor and listens for Knock and Ping/Pinking of the motor by adding loading on the dyno when working with the timing.

With proper monitoring and good tuning it should be quite safe.

I do think you are going about it a bit backwards. - Why? i have two options as i say , one is to use ZE 8.9 pistons to decompress or use a 1.6mm HG.

This is exactly my point. You have much more than two options. Your why in the sentence above is right before I explained why.
You need monitoring. You need to see if you can see the limits before you can know if you are at the limits. Trying to redesign the motor before knowing it needs it is going about it backwards.

I am also getting a little bit short tempered because you only seem to be half listening but not really grasping it. The other issue is that it seems as though you don't want to buy the monitoring equipment, you don't seem to want to tune it yourself or really learn enough to be able to understand it yourself.
You keep talking about taking it to a tuner but you keep asking what you can do to make it better.

If someone else is going to tune it then trust them and let them make the calls.
Otherwise do the research, buy the monitoring equipment, start learning the deeper ins and out for how and why everything works and then start pushing it.
Trying to let someone else tune it but trying to do other parts yourself is just asking for trouble.
Compression is not your first concern.
Get that out of your head till you address the other issues like your bad cam timing and having no way to monitor the system.

I agree thats with the tuning side i do know that, but all your facts are from your current setup,

My facts are from several of my own setups and watching and learning from many others setups.

I am running 11:1 compression at nearly .6 bar on a GZE ECU. My ability to tune compared to yours is like comparing a calculator to an old laptop. You may not have the best management but it's miles ahead of mine.
I have watched several people run more than .6 bar on 9.4:1 motors and stock ECUs and over a bar with aftermarket engine management.
I have watched several people boost silvertops running 10.5:1 compression and .8 to 1 bar boost.

I agree thats with the tuning side i do know that, but all your facts are from your current setup, im under the impression that my comp is to high and not good for boost , i do know that its the tune that breaks motors yes , but the margin for tuning safe and on the edge is based on what you bring to the table, smaller margin for error with a high comp motor then a low comp motor, am i making sense here?

Yes there is a smaller margin for error but what I am trying to explain is that with proper monitoring tools and 10.3:1 compression you have a much larger margin for error than with lower compression and no monitoring.

Personally if I was you I wouldn't drive it until you had a wideband and detcan.
Once you did I would fix the cam timing.
Next set the ignition timing very conservative.
Then take it out and start getting on the boost little bit by little bit listening for detonation.
With conservative timing don't get on it too hard too long because retarded timing can melt valves.
Once you confirm there is no detonation and once your AFRs are dialed in (you can keep it on the rich side for now) start advancing the timing little by little. If you hear a little knock through the detcan or whatever your monitoring device is then back it off slightly. As you start getting the timing a little more agressive you can start getting on it a little harder. From there you can start pushing it little by little.

Most people just aren't willing to throw down for three monitoring devices but if you also get a pyrometer you have all the important bases covered and you can really push the motor really safely. .6 bar with those three monitors will be rediculously safer than low compression with none or only one of the above.
Also don't get too caught up on how much boost. The higher compression will allow you to make more power at lower boost so maybe you can't run as much boost but .6 bar with 10.3:1 will probably make about as much power as 1 bar at 8.1:1. Not only that but the higher comp will give you better gas mileage, better off boost power, better response, better feel and much more pleasant driving experience.

[xploding-twincam]

Sorry for being a hard head but i do understand what you mean now,
I will get the tools to help me monitor my car and ensure its safe,also i should be making it safer as well for tuning and not trust so much in my tuner.

Im happy that we agree the car can make power and drive safely with the boost i am on with the comp i have.

Now the money for HG will go into tools.

I really agree with you and the tools , but i always thought i could all that tools built into a good ecu.

But can you direct me to good tools that i can use?
i know of the Innovate for Air fuel ratio, anything for knock?