Lit'lphant - Toyota's Hemi V8

[oldeskewltoy]

Drum roll please...........





more to come....

[oldeskewltoy]

Getting the flowbench prepped for the 5V-EU head.....


.... and getting the 5V-EU head ready for the flowbench..


more to come.....

I spent a while looking, but never found anyone who had flowed a 5V head before... so I did.





That is pretty good, especially considering valve size.



As to bench racing numbers, that port should support up to about 340-360 n/a hp


more to come....

[oldeskewltoy]

centerlines are now known... and my guess was wrong........   I had thought they were 116+ do to the smooth idle, and the short powerband...  I was wrong!   The cam has a 110 degree centerline....  no need to screw with moving it!   So, the word is out to the cam grinder that we want to twist this baby to 6000, and to get as much lift as we can - do to base circle, valve lift will be about .450"


more to come....

[Nick94tt]

Woot.

I'd wondered how long you would be forced to chase the head gasket before I quietly chipped in the custom cut annealed copper idea. Local race shop was fond of it when they did oddball motors or o-ringed setups. I know they did more than a few sans rings, not sure if they were race team service interval type builds tho.

I know they sent more than a few out the door that way - but they also used to sell other customers "new" parts that came out of other vehicles in the shop and randomly bolt things back up without the right internals.

Happily they went under pretty much right when I heard this from some acquantainces that worked there.

Less happy is how they finished that process - depending on your outlook

[oldeskewltoy]

Typically when you order new pistons, you plan for an overbore...




The cylinder liners are in very good condition, with no ridge at all, and only the very top of the bores no longer showing hone marks.... but the liners are likely a few ten thousandths different... so the intention at the shop now is to re-hone, and set all bores to within one ten thousandth (.0001"). With that final figure, I'll pass that along to Traum pistons so we can have the pistons made to the bores, instead of the other way around....

This was done about a week back... the results were all the liners were nominally under 87mm, so all the liners will be honed to 87.0008mm, or 3.4252"


Along with knowing the bores, the chamber volumes are also now known.... 68cc




and a bit more... note a small "squish" band around the entire piston... also note the valve reliefs are symmetrical, and yet the valves in the head are not....






Those domes are pretty shallow... estimated to be 13cc...

also note the valve reliefs are symmetrical, and yet the valves in the head are not....

This has everything to do with overall piston balance... if the pistons were to only have the intake relief, they would be much tougher to balance, BUT they would also be very expensive, as the engine would need 4 sets of 2 pistons. This is because the wrist pin is offset - you can see this in the side view of the piston. My new pistons will have a dome of 21cc, and the valve reliefs will be .060" deeper....


more to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Those domes are pretty shallow... estimated to be 13cc...

Actually... they were 10cc, so static CR on the 5V is(was) under 9:1....


Thank you Traum Piston - With their help, this is what my 5V will be running..... instead of 10cc, this piston has a 21cc dome




10.30-10.35:1, with slightly deeper (.060") valve pockets. Because the piston has an offset wrist pin, essentially that is 2 sets of 4.



more to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

I spoke to the cam grinder this morning, I now have the specs on the stock 5V-EU cam.

Intake 240 overall, 182.2@ .050" lift, exhaust 247 overall, 182.8@ .050" lift. Lobe lift is .240" Centers are 110

[oldeskewltoy]

A lot has, and is happening.........

1) Their here... the new pistons......




and........

2) in another forum a Russian member spoke of a 1SU(2SU) Toyota engine - (predecessor to the 3S?) and its flywheel(SX70 chassis code, possibly SX60, and ST141 as well).... It seems to be VERY close in size to the 5V-EU flexplate.

Part number: 13405-69036, possibly also 13405-63010









As there isn't one of these in the USA..... The 2S engine did make it to the USA... in the 83-86 Camry. It is also 6 bolt... and I've confirmed the ring gear is 11.588"(Rock auto), I measure the 5V @ 11.6". the part number is different, but I have one coming from a salvage yard to see how close it actually is... $70 gamble




more to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Alright... the 2S flywheel will "fit" the 5V crankshaft.... YES

The center hole fits the crank snout, and the bolt spacing is correct. What is still unknown is if we will need a step/shoulder type bolt or not, and what the back spacing is - we'll need the crank in the block, and the starter fitted to verify back spacing.


more to come.....

[Nick94tt]

Nice. Coming down to "hey there buddy with a lathe..." bits.

Because everybody needs a buddy with a lathe.

[oldeskewltoy]

Nice. Coming down to "hey there buddy with a lathe..." bits.

Because everybody needs a buddy with a lathe.

and I know somebody with a lathe....

making a new window stop because Toyota no longer does....



But for now I'd rather talk about someone else's handy-work for now - https://cpr-manufacturing.com/



As far as I know.... this is the first AR5 (American R154) adapted to fit a stock 5V bell housing.....






It also allows me two transmission options..... if I desire




definitely.... more to come....

[Nick94tt]

Very nice. My neighbor looked at me like I was crazy when I told him to save the chunk of delrin we cut off the snow plow blade I repaired for him.

I'm a sucker for billet aluminum, nice looking adapter.

[oldeskewltoy]

Just an update... this build hasn't stopped, it's just on a short hold while we fit the drivetrain to the chassis....







Once this is finished... the engine build will proceed.....


more to come.....

[Moto-P]

Awesome stuff!!

[oldeskewltoy]

(system still not playing well with photos....)
http://ost.ebeans.ch/albums/userpics/10005/flywheel28Camry29_flexplate28Century29_2_panel_annoted.jpg

Alright... the 2S flywheel will "fit" the 5V crankshaft.... YES

The center hole fits the crank snout, and the bolt spacing is correct. What is still unknown is if we will need a step/shoulder type bolt or not, and what the back spacing is - we'll need the crank in the block, and the starter fitted to verify back spacing.


more to come.....

So the Camry flywheel ALMOST fits...  the center hole is about .002"-.003" too small, the flywheel can be mallet-ed on about 1/2 the distance, but it doesn't go on any further.... AND the crankshaft bolt holes are about .020" narrower bolt circle then the flywheel.  Last the backset appears to be .040" too much.  These small modification will be done to the flywheel to make it fit the crank.

The Camry clutch is still available......

I have a call into ACT clutch to see if they can turn a Camry 2SE pressure plate (100 pound/feet of torque), into a 5V-EU pressure plate (300 pound/feet of torque)  I'll also need a custom disc (AR5 spline on Camry 9" disc)

UPDATE: ACT couldn't help, but Clutch Masters can help - cost is about $500



For now, the crankshaft will be balanced, as will the pulley, the flex plate, and hopefully the flywheel.  Having both the flex plate, and the flywheel balanced allows me to put off the final decision on what transmission I'm going to run.....  

https://gallery.ostportworks.com/albums/userpics/10005/balancing_the_crank2.jpg

https://gallery.ostportworks.com/albums/userpics/10005/balancing_the_crank1.jpg



Yes, Virginia.....  I'm thinking of going with the already engineered A340E.....  


more to come........

[Sepheroth86]

Neat project.

Did I miss what this was going into?

[oldeskewltoy]

Neat project.

Did I miss what this was going into?

A 1972 Corona Mark II (MX22).... Nice ones look like this.....




Mine on the other hand still looks pretty much like this

[Sepheroth86]

COOL CAR!!!!!

[oldeskewltoy]

so it has been a while............ and a lot has happened.....


First - quality machine shops are disappearing. Between regulations, and retirement of experienced professionals, finding a shop who knows what they are doing is not easy. How do you know you have found that shop, the wait time is 6 months plus..............

I'll let that sink in......................................




The heads are ready for re-assembly





We did find suitable valve seals - interestingly enough, these came from Rockauto, and are for use on the early 2M, and 4M inline 6s. The 5V uses dual valve springs, the inner spring rests on the bottom lip of the seal - that's what holds it in place.




and Yahoo Japan did yield a replacement distributor. Odd for sure - 2 coil leads fire different cylinders








Balancing the crank - (full size image - https://gallery.ostportworks.com/albums/userpics/10005/balancing_the_crank_2_panel_split.jpg




Here is one of those new pistons assembled on one of the rods. Rods are somewhat unusual, the split is at an angle(note dotted line). This type of rod is frequently used in diesel engines, and sometimes called a giraffe rod.





and another view.... Pistons, and rods ready for reassembly... no wimpy dowels for alignment on these rods





Btw.... this is Steve... he is the engine assembler at PER. If you look under the "Street Pro" gasket box, you'll see the 5V inline for re-assembly......





more to come... pretty soon

[oldeskewltoy]

A bit further..... ready for reassembly



As this is an aluminum block, there are all kinds of stresses when tightening the main bearings in place, and setting the proper torque. It isn't until after all the mains are fully torqued that the crank turns free...





installing pistons on this bank... 2 down... 2 to go.... Looks like we got the deck pretty close








sometimes **** happens....





while installing the 8th piston, the oil ring got caught and mangled




A new ring was ordered...



more to come.........

[oldeskewltoy]

A bit more progress........ all 8 are now in, as is the camshaft, with the timing chain installed....

















And now on the other end of the engine...........


Now that the crank is in the engine we can get an accurate measurement off of the auto flexplate, and we find the flywheel to still need another .030" removed from the back side for perfect starter engagement.







The AR5 is fitted to the 5V-EU. The adapter is designed to accommodate any A340E equipped car to change to an AR5 transmission. The AR5 is a knock off of the R154




I'll use one of these shifters... which ever fits the application best





Inside is a new pilot bearings, and a new Clutch Masters clutch kit, it uses an uprated pressure plate (rated @ 110% more then stock), and a kevlar disc. The kit was originally designed for the 1984 Camry equipped with the 2SE engine, the spline of the disc matches the AR5 transmission.





more to come....

[oldeskewltoy]

I was not happy with the ignition solutions. An old Hemi kind of requires a cap with wires.... so one day last summer I found this.....




It keeps my options open.



Quite complicated.... anyone have a spare distributor cap?? Or know of one available??





more to come.....

I let it be known... and my contact in Japan stumbled across this... and bought it for me - good thing the exchange rate is good right now!




And another small info update.... a few details about the intake manifold....







As far as intake manifold port size... perfect alignment





Right now we are working on a valve spring[s] upgrade. Something that will allow us to utilize the new rpm potential, and yet not destroy the camshaft do to excess spring pressures. Here is what we have measured so far..... the numbers on the bottom are the inner spring pressures.




more to come......

[oldeskewltoy]

Right now we are working on a valve spring[s] upgrade. Something that will allow us to utilize the new rpm potential, and yet not destroy the camshaft do to excess spring pressures. Here is what we have measured so far..... the numbers on the bottom are the inner spring pressures.




more to come......

So, I need to make a small correction. .408" is not the valve lift of the new cam, the "new" cam is closer to .440" valve lift lift (original valve lift was .350"). Seat pressure doesn't change, just the pressure on the nose. My engine builder recommended about 100# seat pressures and about 220#s on the nose.

I began my search with SBI and their spring info charts: http://www.sbi-e-catalog.com/Specification.aspx (pulldown menu - select valve springs) we couldn't find the perfect fit..... close but wound* the incorrect way.

* - as my engine/head experience is almost entirely utilizing single springs.... I didn't know that dual springs are wound opposite directions (inner versus outer) This allows the springs to bypass each other - even if there is a slight interference fit - if they were wond in the same direction one spring could interfere with the other.




After spending a few hours looking, and comparing, and not finding what I needed I called PAC Racing - they make valve springs for MANY different application. I sent them the specs I needed, and they got back in touch with me.... they DID have a spring that fit my requiremeents, the only problem was it was a proprietary inner spring for AFR. Matt, the PAC Spring rep, asked AFR if they would sell me 16, AFR agreed......



seat pressure: 50#, pressure @ .440" lift: 85#, coil bind @ .585" lift.



more to come......

[sirdeuce]

Why would you need dual springs with this engine? Plan on running some high RPM? Just curious. When I want to kick the revs up on a 22R I like using "beehive" springs. Instead of running the higher spring rates associated with dual springs the beehive springs keep lower sring rates while controlling harmonics with assymetric winding.

Another thing to look at to reduce the valvetrain weighting is thin wall chromolly steel or aluminum pushrods. The aluminum rods would do a great job to about 8500rpm. I didn't move onto steel push rods in my VWs until I started running high lift and high RPM (over 8000rpm). Not sure how high you plan to rev this puppy, it's still a push rod engine.

[oldeskewltoy]

Why would you need dual springs with this engine? Plan on running some high RPM? Just curious. When I want to kick the revs up on a 22R I like using "beehive" springs. Instead of running the higher spring rates associated with dual springs the beehive springs keep lower sring rates while controlling harmonics with assymetric winding.

Another thing to look at to reduce the valvetrain weighting is thin wall chromolly steel or aluminum pushrods. The aluminum rods would do a great job to about 8500rpm. I didn't move onto steel push rods in my VWs until I started running high lift and high RPM (over 8000rpm). Not sure how high you plan to rev this puppy, it's still a push rod engine.

Not sure you saw.... the engine came with dual springs, they are used to hold the valve seals in place! The original inner springs were 15#s on the seat, and 35#s at 408" lift. The new springs add 35#s on the seat (50, instead of 15), and they add 45# at .440" lift

[sirdeuce]

Might have read that and forgot, getting old.

[sirdeuce]

Could have been another mod to consider, changing valve guides. With that you could have used custom guides or crossed to something that would fit which would have allowed the adapting to a "locking" seal and many other options.

Just my mind going in many different vectors at the same time. Yeah, it tkaes me a long time to do anything. I have the, "Ooh, what if I do this?" mentality. Took me months to decide on the con-rods for my 7AGE.

[oldeskewltoy]

Might have read that and forgot, getting old.

Aren't we all.....

Could have been another mod to consider, changing valve guides. With that you could have used custom guides or crossed to something that would fit which would have allowed the adapting to a "locking" seal and many other options.

Just my mind going in many different vectors at the same time. Yeah, it tkaes me a long time to do anything. I have the, "Ooh, what if I do this?" mentality. Took me months to decide on the con-rods for my 7AGE.

Briefly gave that a thought... but this engine had very little wear... so the guides were all good. Besides, there might have been a possibility that once pushed out, and inspected dimensionally, that they would need a custom guide. at this point I'd really like to get this thing together....

[sirdeuce]

Yeah, I'd like to see/hear it when it's done.