OST-044: What the "F"?

[oldeskewltoy]

It has been a while since I did an "F" head, Grunt's lump was built Dec 2010 to June 2011 - F head port, and rebuild

This "F" head is a later type, with the raised intake ports.

Time to get it cleaned and pressure checked






current short radius.....





more to come......

[Rogue-AE95]

I was hoping to see you attack one of the 2nd gen 4A-FE heads someday. I have one sitting atop the 7A-FE I bought to make a 7A-G(T)E, and wondered if it would be better or worse than the 1st gen head for building up a turbo'd economy engine.

Those 2nd gen intake ports are so steep.

[oldeskewltoy]

I was hoping to see you attack one of the 2nd gen 4A-FE heads someday. I have one sitting atop the 7A-FE I bought to make a 7A-G(T)E, and wondered if it would be better or worse than the 1st gen head for building up a turbo'd economy engine.

Those 2nd gen intake ports are so steep.

haven't even touched it yet.... and YES it would make for a much better head for ANY "F" application - turbo, n/a, or S/C

[oldeskewltoy]

Those 2nd gen intake ports are so steep.

That they are.....




The intake valves are also bigger, 1st gen 30mm, 2nd gen 31mm



That is the extent of the good news... the bad news.... the front oil drain still interferes with the exhaust flow on #1 exhaust port











more to come.......

[Rogue-AE95]

Figures about the oil passage. Why make something perfect, right?

I guess the intake couldn't be any better of an angle, going more like ( instead of L.

[oldeskewltoy]

Do you see what I see..... ???




more to come.....

[Rogue-AE95]

Cleaned up casting, like you do with the G heads? Or was it that nice from the foundry?

[oldeskewltoy]

Cleaned up casting, like you do with the G heads? Or was it that nice from the foundry?

I've deburred, and cleaned the casting some... but there is another something that I see..........



While you are still trying to see what I see....



7 years ago when I built "Grunt's Lump, OST-011", I didn't have the easiest(best?) tool for setting, AND measuring the valves.......





Here is the design, and building process for the tool I'll be using this time.....




quite a bit more accurate and reliable!




more to come.......

[oldeskewltoy]

[oldeskewltoy]

What do I see........????

wider valve spacing on the exhaust valves..... although not clear enough to measure in the photo, if you look at the cam journals, the intake journal is about 2mm narrower then the corresponding exhaust cam journal





more to come....

[Gino1X1]

I, like..... THOUGHT I saw that on my nephew's 4Efte's head..... How about that.

[Rogue-AE95]

Interesting. Is it advantageous to have the ex valves like that?

What (or who) is this head for, if I may ask? I was thinking that it's a lot of work for an "economy" head, but a good experiment regardless. Like the early 4A-FE head you worked on for your CAT sedan. (I still hope you decide to put a smallish turbo on that, as it's perfectly built & prepped for one.)

[oldeskewltoy]

Interesting. Is it advantageous to have the ex valves like that?

What (or who) is this head for, if I may ask? I was thinking that it's a lot of work for an "economy" head, but a good experiment regardless. Like the early 4A-FE head you worked on for your CAT sedan. (I still hope you decide to put a smallish turbo on that, as it's perfectly built & prepped for one.)

The exhaust tends to work better with the valves closer to the cylinder wall, so wider spacing can improve flow.

As to it being an economy head...


So it has been a while.... and after some digging..




there is improvement to be found.... this head now flows nearly what a 4AG head flows







more to come....

[aukword1]

That is some heavy duty work there man, good stuff...keep it up!

[naked8689]

LOVE the work MR.TOY you think it would be possible to use bag 16v springs with these heads? I know the 16v valves can be used with a little machine shop work. I'm currently doing something similar with my F head.

[oldeskewltoy]

LOVE the work MR.TOY you think it would be possible to use bag 16v springs with these heads? I know the 16v valves can be used with a little machine shop work. I'm currently doing something similar with my F head.

problem here is spring bind. As was discussed in http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15683 4AGE spring bind comes in at about 1.017", where as these springs bind @ .812". To use a 16V G spring in a 2nd gen F head, the F head would need to have the spring seats machined .200". Not saying it can't be done.... just not my first choice.

[Gino1X1]

LOVE the work MR.TOY you think it would be possible to use bag 16v springs with these heads? I know the 16v valves can be used with a little machine shop work. I'm currently doing something similar with my F head.

problem here is spring bind. As was discussed in http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15683 4AGE spring bind comes in at about 1.017", where as these springs bind @ .812". To use a 16V G spring in a 2nd gen F head, the F head would need to have the spring seats machined .200". Not saying it can't be done.... just not my first choice.

As for as using springs..... Once upon a time I've mated 2/3T OEM valve springs to a 3K-B, let some older refinery mechanic machine my KP30's 4K head's valve seats to fit "rally type" valve springs made for a BMW 316. Topi at TRS USA helped a LOT here. I've even mated OEM 3SG valve springs on mY bluetop 4AGE before I've ordered my current TRDUSA valve springs...

My point? Depends on which cam(s) you're going to use, take your time and measure/measure/measure things out. No worries by then.

[oldeskewltoy]

LOVE the work MR.TOY you think it would be possible to use bag 16v springs with these heads? I know the 16v valves can be used with a little machine shop work. I'm currently doing something similar with my F head.

problem here is spring bind. As was discussed in http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15683 4AGE spring bind comes in at about 1.017", where as these springs bind @ .812". To use a 16V G spring in a 2nd gen F head, the F head would need to have the spring seats machined .200". Not saying it can't be done.... just not my first choice.

As for as using springs..... Once upon a time I've mated 2/3T OEM valve springs to a 3K-B, let some older refinery mechanic machine my KP30's 4K head's valve seats to fit "rally type" valve springs made for a BMW 316. Topi at TRS USA helped a LOT here. I've even mated OEM 3SG valve springs on mY bluetop 4AGE before I've ordered my current TRDUSA valve springs...

My point? Depends on which cam(s) you're going to use, take your time and measure/measure/measure things out. No worries by then.

I really wish all my clients were as diligent as this one - My client is one who has done his research.....

He found a near perfect fit - http://www.catcams.com/products/valvesp ... CT_id=6851

They are on order and should be here soon.... and their delay is why there have not been many new posts recently

[Rogue-AE95]

their delay is why there have not been many new posts recently

I've been wondering how the "F" this head has been coming along

[oldeskewltoy]

their delay is why there have not been many new posts recently

I've been wondering how the "F" this head has been coming along

There have been a few delays... along with a few developments....

One of the delays... getting the Euro intake cam here....




The other... collecting parts for the block build





along with MRP rods....





and MRP oil pan




more to come.......

[Rogue-AE95]

9A-FE?? The fact that the rods are MRP makes me think of their stroker kits.

Forged GE pistons, or custom FE ones?

Never knew the Euro cam was different. There was also a nicer FE exhaust manifold, UK or Euro. If I recall correctly you got one for your built-up 4A-FE.

[oldeskewltoy]

9A-FE?? The fact that the rods are MRP makes me think of their stroker kits.

Forged GE pistons, or custom FE ones?

Never knew the Euro cam was different. There was also a nicer FE exhaust manifold, UK or Euro. If I recall correctly you got one for your built-up 4A-FE.

keeping the stroke as is, these are MRP's 7A replacement rods, not a stroker rod


custom pistons....


based on a chamber casting





I then had a piston designed based on the casting




As to the exhaust side, this engine will be running a small turbo, so the later euro manifold will not suffice........



More to come.......

[Rogue-AE95]

Very nice! It will be interesting to see how the modified 7A-FE does. Whenever I push my CAT around, it seems that the poor thing can't breathe at all through those dinky intake ports and long-runner (early 4A-FE) intake manifold. Without yet having a 4A-GE, I can understand the benefits of using a better flowing head. And stepping up from that, porting it to flow even more.

I'm guessing there will be a custom intake manifold for this? Or is the customer going to run with the stock one?

[oldeskewltoy]

I'm guessing there will be a custom intake manifold for this? Or is the customer going to run with the stock one?

I was trying to convince him to run something custom(similar to a stock SR20DE intake), but for now he is retaining the OEM intake.

I really wish all my clients were as diligent as this one - My client is one who has done his research.....

He found a near perfect fit - http://www.catcams.com/products/valvesp ... CT_id=6851

The bottom end showing the MRP rods.



A point - these rods did need a bit of work to be used. The big end of the rod had some taper (.001"), and the IDs were inconsistent - varied by .0008".... but they are still far less costly then getting them from Carrillo. While there was some issues to be addressed, these issues were caught, and CORRECTED by a professional race shop!





Finally, I've been finishing the head, getting the "new" intake cam to fit, and getting the "new" exhaust valves to fit the best of the exhaust cams I have. Some were done with shims, while others had the valve "tipped" a few ten thousandths.





more to come.....

[matt dunn]

The MRP rods are also slightly longer than the standard 7A rod aren't they?
about 0.5mm from memory.

[oldeskewltoy]

The MRP rods are also slightly longer than the standard 7A rod aren't they?
about 0.5mm from memory.

To be honest... I can't confirm, or deny that...


Here is what I know........... the deck of the block was slightly damaged, requiring machining to make sure the metal gasket sealed.



The block was decked .008" so this scare would go away. Because I was unsure of how deep that scare was, I had the custom pistons built with .004" less deck then a stock piston is. Once the pistons were fitted to the rods, and fitted to the block, the deck was again checked, and the block was machined a further .005" to set the squish gap @ .035" (~.9mm) - gasket + deck = .035"



The engine assembly went quite smoothly......




Just need to add the timing cover, and the cam cover, and then get this on a pallet back to its owner!!




More to come......