Cross Plane 4AGE

GZE_RA21
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Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby GZE_RA21 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:26 pm

Alright C4AG...

I've seen it discussed several times across several forums, but I want your opinions, not "should I or shouldn't I" but what you think it would take to successfully assemble and get a cross plane converted 4A running and what would be the best way to go about it.

Just like the Yamaha R1 firing order, with each conrod 90 degrees out from eachother and what not.

so definitely would need a custom crank, already got a quote, $4500

custom ground cams, seems a bit easier than the crank

aftermarket management, Haltech, AEM, MegaSquirt etc.

then what...adjustable cam gears, COP conversion, hall effect sensor + trigger wheel, cam position sensor, anything else? Constructive input appreciated.


Yes I know, cost per power blah blah blah no significant gains blah blah blah, I get it, I just wanna do it. I can't find anyone else who has put a cross plane I4 in a car, I saw one youtube of a guy spinning a cross plane crank in an I4 block, but no follow up or evidence of completion. If someone has done it and I just haven't found it, please enlighten me. :geek:

Thanks fellas! :mrgreen:

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jondee86
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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:32 am

Sounds like an awesome project (pun intended) :D

And I think that you have all the bases covered. Trick parts are the crank and cams
as no-one will have built these before. However, with modern CAD-CAM technology
designing/rearranging the crank throws and cam lobes to suit crossplane should not
be a major. But custom work, so will cost. Maybe you can cut a deal to promote the
manufacturing companies in exchange for sponsorship ? Never hurts to show off your
work and get a bit of free publicity when someone is breaking new ground.

Same kind of thing with an ECU. Since there are no production car engines with the
crossplane firing order, the trigger angles will have to be manually calculated and
set up. I'm pretty sure any decent ECU manufacturer would be happy to do a custom
base map for you in return for you putting their stickers in a prominent place.

Other than that it will be just the same as setting up a standard 4AGE. Good luck :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby GZE_RA21 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:45 am

jondee86 wrote:Sounds like an awesome project (pun intended) :D


It's a bit late here across the pond, or I may just be dense, but I'm not catching the pun....

Thanks for chiming in though jondee, I was looking forward to your response. Yeah I was thinking of trying to broker an advertisement discount for the potential machine shops I've been inquiring with. This is just something I really want to do at this point, as yes, it is a big pill to swallow and really commit to, when a fully built turbo setup would be much more budget friendly, I'd probably have enough left over for a paint job too. :roll:

BUT.... I'm having a very hard time trying to get over wanting to do this. We'll see..

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:23 am

GZE_RA21 wrote:It's a bit late here across the pond, or I may just be dense, but I'm not catching the pun....

Sorry... might have been a bit obscure. I was referring to the fact that the primary
motivation for making a crossplane inline 4 cylinder is for the sound of the exhaust.
So... sounds like an awesome project :)

Anyway... I'm all in favour of attempting projects that don't necessarily stack up from
a purely cost effective point of view. Sometimes it is something that is done just for
the personal satisfaction of doing something that hasn't been done before. And even
if the project never gets off the ground for whatever reason, you have still learned a
lot about what it would take to make it fly :)

Here is a good example of what you can finish up with if you have a dream...

Image
http://www.12rotor.com/

Cheers... jondee86
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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:41 am

Hmmmm.... interesting concept... I'm in for discussion... I can inquire with my camshaft makers how much they would charge for redesigning.... you might talk to a few camshaft makers... I wonder if lobe design/timing would change much???
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby GZE_RA21 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:03 pm

jondee86 wrote:
GZE_RA21 wrote:It's a bit late here across the pond, or I may just be dense, but I'm not catching the pun....

Sorry... might have been a bit obscure. I was referring to the fact that the primary
motivation for making a crossplane inline 4 cylinder is for the sound of the exhaust.
So... sounds like an awesome project :)

Anyway... I'm all in favour of attempting projects that don't necessarily stack up from
a purely cost effective point of view. Sometimes it is something that is done just for
the personal satisfaction of doing something that hasn't been done before. And even
if the project never gets off the ground for whatever reason, you have still learned a
lot about what it would take to make it fly :)

Cheers... jondee86





Ahhh yes, I get it now, it does SOUND like an interesting idea, doesn't it? :lol:



oldeskewltoy wrote:Hmmmm.... interesting concept... I'm in for discussion... I can inquire with my camshaft makers how much they would charge for redesigning.... you might talk to a few camshaft makers... I wonder if lobe design/timing would change much???



That would be much appreciated OST, I've been focusing on crank manufacturers for now as that seems to be the financial Achilles heel of this one. Seems to be a more common thing to regrind cams than to CNC custom billet cranks so I haven't been gathering quotes for cams yet.

And yes I agree, getting timing figured out on this one would be a bit of a puzzle. Not too sure on lobe design though, I assume it would be about the same?

I figure since the cross plane is common in V8s, it would be fairly similar to a single bank of an over head cam v8 design, half of say... a 1UZ-FE perhaps?

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:03 am

Thinking about this for a while, I don't see any reason why the engine parts
need to change their basic design/shape/operation.The differences required
to convert to crossplane are all to do with the timing of the combustion events.
The firing order is changed to 1-3-2-4 and the intervals become irregular at
270° 180° 90° 180°.

This obviously means that crank throws need to be changed and the cam lobes
indexed to match the TDC timing of each cylinder. Likewise the ignition and
injection event timing will need to be referenced to TDC on each cylinder. Two
things that will be up for redesign are crank counterweights and the exhaust
system. The first to take advantage of the reduction in unbalanced forces, and
the second to ensure that there is no mistaking the new and improved sound :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby GZE_RA21 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:02 pm

Agreed jondee,


I can't see any particular reason to need to change much of the basic design of the components. Maybe have the cam maker machine some new gear teeth on the cam to properly indicate TDC for using the stock cam position sensor? The base engine I'm starting with is a late AE92 4AGZE with MAP and DLI. I was hoping to be able to utilize the DLI components in setting up a COP for the ignition on whatever computer I end up using. I also figured a crank trigger wheel and hall effect sensor would have to be utilized as well.

However, if I'm going through the effort, er, expense of custom cams, I was thinking of doing a higher lift and moderate duration increase as well. I'd like to slap a snail on the exhaust down the line so why not take advantage?

I had half a mind to have that custom crank made into a stroker as well, but I figure it would be best to let that alone, it'll be enough of a head scratcher just to get it timed and fueling properly, I don't want to over complicate things unnecessarily.

As for exhaust, the dream would be some home made header back full titanium piece, I'm a welding instructor by profession and could put together a pretty sweet system for the cost of materials, icing on the proverbial cross plane cake. But in reality I'll probably end up fabbing up a stainless system with a good resonator and muffler. This build idea would be powering my 71 celica, exempt from any restrictions locally thank goodness. Also not too many off the shelf 4A in RA20 chassis exhaust options, so home made is the best (not to mention my favorite) option for exhaust.

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby jondee86 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:16 pm

First, the 4AGZE DLI system will only work with the GZE ECU, coils and igniter. Second,
it is a wasted spark system, and therefore cannot accommodate the irregular ignition
timing intervals. To make it work you will need four coils with built-in igniters plus an
ECU with four ignition and four injector outputs. Pretty much any basic aftermarket ECU
will have these outputs and will allow the ignition timing to be matched to the irregular
intervals of the crossplane engine.

There should not need to be any change to the GZE CAS or the camshaft gear. The CAS
has pickups for crank and cam position and will work as it does standard. For sure you
could add a little spice to the cams. Only keep in mind s/c or turbo cams like a bit more
lift than stock, but don't like too much duration. I wouldn't be looking at increasing the
stroke. However, as the crossplane is said to rev higher and faster than a flatplane it
would be worth while looking at lighter pistons and stronger, lighter rods.

The issue with the exhaust is in how to achieve efficient scavenging with a 4>2>1 when
the exhaust impulses are not evenly spaced. This video shows the sequence...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwbpi3B5_Go
A quick browse om google reveals that a number of aftermarket exhaust manufacturers
have come up with 4>2>1 systems for the Yamaha R1 so it seems that workable solutions
are out there. Yoshimura for example, uses balance pipes and unequal length primaries
on their latest full exhaust. Maybe something like that could be adapted for the slightly
less stratospheric rpm's of the 4AGE ?

If you can DIY the exhaust then you will have the luxury of experimenting with different
setups to find one that works... but that is a finishing touch :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby allencr » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:55 am

It's not just regrinding the cam, it's putting the lobes in different places, and a cast iron blank, before factory machining, just doesn't have metal where you'll need it.
Get a sawsall, learn how to weld REAL WELL, cut & paste crank & cam.
Ignition, I'm clueless.

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:21 pm

I checked with one crank maker... his reply, "The only way to make that type of crank is out of billet, the engineering cost would be very high and we would have to make at least 5 at a time and there is not advantage to it."
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby GZE_RA21 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:12 am

allencr wrote:It's not just regrinding the cam, it's putting the lobes in different places, and a cast iron blank, before factory machining, just doesn't have metal where you'll need it.
Get a sawsall, learn how to weld REAL WELL, cut & paste crank & cam.
Ignition, I'm clueless.




Only reason I said 'regrind', I've seen where cam re-manufacturers take old worn out cams and weld more material onto the lobes and grind them down again, idk if something like that could be done to make a new lobe where there wasn't one previously... but I still need to get in contact with a cam specific company for a quote on my options.

oh, and I'm a welding instructor by profession by the way, so I consider myself a pretty good welder, and I would never consider cutting and welding a cam or crank, WAAAAAAY to much stress and precision movement going on in an engine to go through that kind of effort to have a cam or crank come apart in the first 60 seconds of firing up and junking a whole motor. I'd rather spend the ~6k and have it done right with an actual possibility of this working reliably.


oldeskewltoy wrote:I checked with one crank maker... his reply, "The only way to make that type of crank is out of billet, the engineering cost would be very high and we would have to make at least 5 at a time and there is not advantage to it."


He's right, the only way to do it would be with a billet crank, so the crank company I spoke to said as well. SCAT Cranks in Redondo Beach CA said as long as they had a sample crank to pull journal dimensions from, changing the degree of con rod rotation wouldn't be an issue. Since it's just a single one-off build they quoted me at $4500. Really not too bad if you ask me, all things considered that is. Apparently all the employees at SCAT are at SEMA right now but when they're back I'm gonna go up there and bring them a spare crank I have laying around and talk things over with them in person to see what they say. Still gotta look into cams, but I've been slammed at work, and life in general for that matter. :roll:

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Re: Cross Plane 4AGE

Postby jondee86 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:13 pm

How it's made... billet crankshaft...

Image

Any company that can make these could make what you need. The cost is in writing
a new program for the CNC machinery and the setup time to make a one-off crank.

And for those who prefer movies.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK1fn_8llbE

In the second half of this video you can see how billet camshafts are made...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRVUZasogfs
Once again the extra cost will be in calculating where the lobes need to be placed and
setting up the machines to make a one-off camshaft.

Cheers... jondee86
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