COP with Adaptronic

BoostJunky
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COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:21 pm

Hey folks, I'm currently tuned with M1200 with distributor set up on my 20V turbo.

I've been trying to get the Direct fire to work but it will not start. Coils are working fine. They are all wired up correctly.
I left the IGT/#1 connected to get a tach signal from a dead oem 20v coil and igniter is also still hooked up.

Anybody running this ems with working cops? Could use some advice. TIA
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:40 pm

First, the M1200 has a dedicated TACHO output so you should be able to bin
that old coil and igniter. Assuming that the TACHO output switches 12V to ground,
you should be able to use this diagram...

Image

Grab any 12V automotive relay you have lying around, disable or remove the moving
parts to stop it buzzing, and hook the output to the input of your old school (coil
negative signal) type tacho. Set the TACHO output to 4-cylinder in the software and
you are good to go.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:55 am

Second... if I understand correctly, you were using the M1200 to trigger the
OEM single coil and distributor ignition system. If so, the ECU would have been
supplying 4 trigger signals per 720deg of crank rotation from a single ignition
output. To get this to work you would need to have selected "Single Distributor"
as the output mode on the "Ignition Output Control" on the "Outputs" TAB in
Eugene (the ECU software interface).

Image

If you have now connected all four ignition outputs to their respective coils, you
will need to change the ignition mode to "Direct Fire - Single Plug Per Cylinder".
I don't think you should need to make any other changes. The ignition timing will
be the same, only now there are four coils sharing the load.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Don't worry about the 6 ignition outputs... this example was for a 2JZ :)
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:18 am

jondee86 wrote:Second... if I understand correctly, you were using the M1200 to trigger the
OEM single coil and distributor ignition system. If so, the ECU would have been
supplying 4 trigger signals per 720deg of crank rotation from a single ignition
output. To get this to work you would need to have selected "Single Distributor"
as the output mode on the "Ignition Output Control" on the "Outputs" TAB in
Eugene (the ECU software interface)

Image

If you have now connected all four ignition outputs to their respective coils, you
will need to change the ignition mode to "Direct Fire - Single Plug Per Cylinder".
I don't think you should need to make any other changes. The ignition timing will
be the same, only now there are four coils sharing the load.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Don't worry about the 6 ignition outputs... this example was for a 2JZ :)


Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I have done. Tried both 360 with cam or 720* but it will not fire up. I ran into exact same issue with haltech 500 as well. Same honda 3 wire coils. It runs on batchfire so i can confirm the coils are all functioning, it runs well at its current state with distributor and stock ignition leads but cops would be ideal since I have everything I need.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 pm

OK... highly relevant post as I am very shortly going to be changing to COP
ignition my self on an earlier model Adaptronic ECU. Looking into this a bit
deeper, I think that there are some triggering settings that need changing.

I will need this information myself, so I'll see what I can dig up. I have a 16V
4AGE but I will see if I can get the settings that apply to the 20V as well.
Might take a few days :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:15 pm

That's what I was thinking as well. I'm using the toyota one from the options on triggers but it may not be compatible with cop. Havent tried the other ones as I have removed the cops so I could drive the car.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:28 pm

Initial research says this should be dead simple :D But since I can't lean over your
fender and check for myself, I need to ask a few (some fairly obvious) questions...

1. You are definitely using "smart" coils... right ?
2. Each COP is wired directly to the correct ignition output on the ECU ? That is,
Ignition 1 ---> Cylinder 1 ---> Pin 1G
Ignition 2 ---> Cylinder 2 ---> Pin 1H
Ignition 3 ---> Cylinder 3 ---> Pin 1F
Ignition 4 ---> Cylinder 4 ---> Pin 1T
3. Ignition Mode = Direct Fire - single plug per cylinder... check ?
4. Firing Pattern = Fire every 720deg... check ? Not as shown above... my bad :oops:
5. All 20V stuff, igniter etc now disconnected... check ?
6. Each injector wired to the correct injection output on the ECU ? That is,
Injector 1 ---> Cylinder 1 ---> Pin 2U
Injector 2 ---> Cylinder 2 ---> Pin 2Y
Injector 3 ---> Cylinder 3 ---> Pin 2Z
Injector 4 ---> Cylinder 4 ---> Pin 2V

AFAIK if you can answer yes to all these questions, the engine should run. I say
that on the basis that you had the engine running in wasted spark so all the other
basic setting should be right or near enough.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Thanks for taking the time! Everything is correct with the exception of the igniter being plugged in. oem coil unplugged. Could it really be that simple eh? I'd knock my self in the head if it was.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:42 am

I don't know if having the OEM igniter connected is a problem or not. I put
that on the list because you have been messing around with the wiring and
the more redundant parts you leave connected the higher the chance of a
loose wire/short to ground or some other problem.

In fact, if the igniter is still hooked up it must be using the #1 ignition
output that should now be hooked up to the #1 COP. So long as the OEM
igniter is not sharing the #1 ignition output, then it can't be a problem, but
I would uplug it anyway to be sure.
It runs on batchfire so i can confirm the coils are all functioning,

If you were batch firing all four COP's from a single ignition output, then
you would have had the trigger wires all spliced together. No doubt you have
removed that splice and run each trigger wire directly to its correct COP. That
and resetting the ECU parameters should have been all that was required.
The four ground and power supply wires can still be spliced together so no
need to change those.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:25 am

I don't use your system but based on what you've posted, it sounds like you need to adjust the dwell time.

COPs have associated "charge time" known as dwell, which is measured in milliseconds (ms).This is how long it takes for the coil to become fully charged. Setting dwell too high causes increased coil temperatures and could potentially cause the coil to burn-up (internal short). If dwell time is set TOO LOW, it results in a weaker spark and reduced ignition performance (this is could be what's causing your issue).

Now, looking at the screenshot you provided, there is an entire table associated with dwell time (vs engine speed). This allows you to fine tune your dwell time and ensure you get the maximum spark at a given engine speed.

Most OEMs dont publish the dwell for their COP units (and why should they, to most it's meaningless) so the only way to determine this value is by measuring it (with an oscilloscope).

Hopfully this helps.
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:18 pm

Good suggestion !! The M1200 basemap has dwell settings like this...

Image

These should be good for pretty much any coil if they haven't been messed with.

For the OP there is also the built-in scope that has an injector/igniter test mode...

Image

This can be used to check that each injector or coil is operating correctly. Just
select the output and press GO. This screen is found under the "diagnostics" TAB.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:06 pm

Wow! Built in scope? That's awesome!

Also, just noticed the Point Angle Offset parameter in your screenshot. I believe that is what controls timing for each cyl (like points on an old skool distributor). Did you set that up?
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:49 pm

Thanks guys. I left most of the values as is. They provided me with a stock basemap for a 20v so I tuned it off of that.
I haven't played with the the diagnostic tools besides the logging function but that's a good idea to check.

The ecu really is quite decent. It even has a knock board that seems to work well. I just wish they offered auto-tune on M1200 but short term fuel trim adjustment gets it close.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:39 pm

jondee86 wrote:
For the OP there is also the built-in scope that has an injector/igniter test mode...

Image

This can be used to check that each injector or coil is operating correctly. Just
select the output and press GO. This screen is found under the "diagnostics" TAB.

Cheers... jondee86


I tried this but it just kept saying timed out. Have you had a chance to try it out with yours? I haven't tried to run the cops again yet though.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:23 pm

I have the earlier version SELECT e440d ECU and that does not have the built=in scope.
But it does have an injector/ignition output test mode that I have never used I will got
my laptop hooked up and take a look at how it works, but won't be able to do that for
a couple of days. Will post anything useful.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:17 pm

OK, had a look at what I can see on my ECU and I can get a graphical display of
the injector test, either one at a time or several overlaid...

Image

The ignition test just gets the ECU to pulse each active ignition output when the
output is selected. So I would have to pull the plug lead, connect it to a spare plug,
ground the plug and check to see if there is a spark when I click the button. Not as
sexy as a grphic but would certainly show if I had spark or not.

Your ECU is specifically designed to be used for sequential ignition with individual
coils. So you should be able to display graphics for each connected igniter on the
built-in scope. The ignition has to be ON for the diagnostics to work as the ECU
does not supply power to the coils or injectors. Disable the fuel pump before you
test the injectors to prevent fuel being injected during testing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:26 pm

jondee86 wrote:Cheers... jondee86



Thank you for trying it out. I will give it another go when I have some time.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:00 pm

Had another go at this, Test mode still does not work even with the new Eugene software, but my back to my issue with the COPs are still not working. I believe the coils are firing at the wrong time. I went back into my wiring diagram. Pin 2E is looking for a crank angle sensor which I do not have although my engine runs fine with the ecu and distributor, will this be an issue. Adaptronic tech support is also quite helpful with replies however they are having a hard time as well.
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby jondee86 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:21 pm

The 20V distributor appears to be fitted with one 24 tooth trigger wheel with
a single pickup, and a single tooth trigger wheel with two pickups located on
opposite sides of the wheel. I don't have a 20V dissy to play with but the pickups
appear to be similar to the 16V smallport dissy.

So if this is the case, then the 24 tooth wheel and pickup provides you with a
cranshaft (or rpm) signal, and should be connected to the trigger 1 (2E) pin.
The single tooth wheel provides cam position signal which is also known as the
reset or sync signal. As there are two pickups the ECU will get a reset every
360 deg of crank rotation.

I'm not exactly sure what happens if you only connect one reset, but if your CAS
wiring looks like this pic, I have had success connecting them las set out below.

Image

CAS 1 = Black Ne or crankshaft signal
CAS 2 = Red G1 reset signal
CAS 3 = Green G2 reset signal

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: COP with Adaptronic

Postby BoostJunky » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:56 pm

Thanks so much for trying to help out! Unfortunately no luck in case somebody else is following on this thread. Everything seems to be wired in correctly but I cannot get the cops to fire up, something might be off with the triggers in the map or I'm missing an input somehow. Back to the good old distributor we go!
-1986 GT-S BT20v-

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