AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Jafet
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AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Jafet » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:01 pm

I was just wondering what kind of setups you guys have or what would best like coiolovesr all around if so which ones or coilovers in the front trd lowering springs in the back. Asking what would be good for daily and drift

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Autohaus_Z
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Autohaus_Z » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:13 pm

Take a look at the Fortune Auto Coilovers Battle Garage offers. We spent a good amount of time testing and revising the Battle Garage x Swift rear springs (Full spring and coilover spring) which offer a built in progressive spring rate: daily driving comfort with no sacrifice in performance.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Jayrdee » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:14 am

^^ Ditto to what this guy said ^^

If you're looking for a "store-bought" option, Fortune Auto is the way to go. I have these on mine and I couldn't be happier. The digressive dampening does wonders for daily driving. Just be sure to get the radial bearing mount upgrade if you go this route. I didn't at first, but got them later. I wrote a lengthy review of them here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21044

Then there's the DIY route, which can get you the same, if not better results, for potentially cheaper. TRD, Koni, Bilstein shocks and Swift springs seem to be pretty common and proven to perform. T3 offers a good budget package thats pretty popular as well, and they'll let you pick your own shocks.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby CloudStrife » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:56 am

I'd just like to say not everyone is happy with progressive spring rates. I know competent people, and good track drivers which steer clear of them. I won't write a dissertation here, but do some google research on progressive vs linear springs and rates.

FA coilovers are pretty much tier 1 though, especially the setup that BG sells. BC is a good tie for 1st place on the 86. Otherwise I would go custom (tons of information), or not bother buying anything else/sticking with stock. Remember that old springs sag a bit, and you will actually sit a bit "lower", even though your shocks are probably trash at this point.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby totta crolla » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:17 am

The two criteria you have stated you want to use the car for are entirely different so you will end up being more compromised than is ideal for both disciplines. Best you can do is use soft springs for daily driving and then use your adjustable dampers to stiffen up the suspension when drifting. An adjustable anti-roll bar on the rear would be a benefit too.
Height adjustment on the coilover body would also help. If you decide against coilovers on the rear, T3 sell a nice spacer that sits on top of the spring to add a little extra height for daily use.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Jafet » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:17 pm

totta crolla wrote:The two criteria you have stated you want to use the car for are entirely different so you will end up being more compromised than is ideal for both disciplines. Best you can do is use soft springs for daily driving and then use your adjustable dampers to stiffen up the suspension when drifting. An adjustable anti-roll bar on the rear would be a benefit too.
Height adjustment on the coilover body would also help. If you decide against coilovers on the rear, T3 sell a nice spacer that sits on top of the spring to add a little extra height for daily use.


Alright makes sense, thanks for the information and input

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Illegal_Garage » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:30 pm

For drift T3 with HTS setup will be the best bang for the buck

BEST BEST off the shelf would be toda fightex

BEST BEST BEST that money can buy would be a custom built penske setup but your looking at $10,000-50,000

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:00 am

Imo, custom is always best. Its because the setup can be tailored for the car's intended use.

As far as off the shelf coilovers go... on paper it sounds like fortune auto and shockworks are the best rounded. Both claim ae86 specific tuning. Shockworks even claims model specific road tuning, and has default 6/4k spring rates, which is a sign they actually may have done model specific tuning (all other off the shelf kits use cookie cutter 8/6k rates...) BGRS, claims road tuning as well for their FA kit, but only in the form of optional rear springs (please correct me if im wrong). Also, FA dampers are digressive!

There are more obscure options that Im less familiar with. Toda has a kit, GAZ has a kit; also, iirc, ennepetal japan has an expensive kit that some of the current 'n2 tsukuba' cars use. Companies like kw, etc. have made custom kits for ae86 race cars and could make one for you, but at a cost of at least $3k+++++.

T3 is decent too. They fall somewhere in between custom and off the shelf in my mind. Its because they use off the shelf shocks, usually from other makes/models; although, theyre known to work on an ae86. If t3 could do their own bespoke ae86 model specific damping somehow it would be a huge plus.

Group 4 has a similar approach as t3 with their ae86 suspension. The main difference is they tune more for rally, whereas t3 is meant for drift/track use.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Jayrdee » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:47 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:IT3 is decent too. They fall somewhere in between custom and off the shelf in my mind. Its because they use off the shelf shocks, usually from other makes/models; although, theyre known to work on an ae86. If t3 could do their own bespoke ae86 model specific damping somehow it would be a huge plus.


Just to bounce off what was said here, for their coilover conversion kits you're able to swap whatever shocks you want in them with an added expense. Well, the ones they offer. Pretty sure right now its KYB AGX, Bilstein, TRD Blue, and Tokico HTS. I almost bought the T3 stuff with TRD Blue shocks.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:52 pm

Exactly. Their original front 'coilovers' are oem ae86 strut casings that are shortened 40 mm and converted to accept coilover springs. (After a while they started adding a welded on spindle brace too.)

Their new advanced front coilovers mirror all the dimensions as the original, but with ALL NEW PARTS (rather than reusing old stuff). I asked about the gland nut thread size some time ago and he told me they use the coarser thread from later models, rather than the fine thread oem ae86 uses.

As mentioned any of the popular 'short stroke' shocks will fit, and many others.

I tried the adjustable trd race blue shocks previously with their og 'coilovers.' Tried 6.5, 7, and 8k springs. (Little-to-no preload.) They're good: high performance, plenty of rebound, but a bit harsh on the street, even on decent roads...

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:26 pm

Just refreshed my setup with some changes. Converted to coilover up front with swift 3.5k main springs and 6k tenders. Custom 2.8k rear springs from ajps. Also added 10 mm spring spacer on LR only to help get rid the infamous 'lean'. (Ghetto corner balance haha.) Using standard long bilstein shocks for ae86 still. Overall its a tad lower than stock but not much.

So far my impression of performance is :o :twisted: :D 8-). Front end grip is very good now. Balanced overall, good feel/feedback, and car just wants to turn in. Easy to consistantly hit precise apex points.

I wish it was a tad lower though... have a little room up front with the coilovers, beforeni run out of usable travel. Might get new custom rear springs in future based off what i learned from first set...

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby jondee86 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:52 pm

There is a song with lyrics that contains this thought...

If you can't be with the one you love, Love the one you're with

I think that covers the situation regarding suspension pretty well :)

Cheers...jondee86
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby totta crolla » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:30 am

jondee86 wrote:There is a song with lyrics that contains this thought...

If you can't be with the one you love, Love the one you're with

I think that covers the situation regarding suspension pretty well :)

Cheers...jondee86


mmm... not "Rockin' rollin' ridin' " ? :D (morningtown ride)

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:00 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:Just refreshed my setup with some changes. Converted to coilover up front with swift 3.5k main springs and 6k tenders. Custom 2.8k rear springs from ajps. Also added 10 mm spring spacer on LR only to help get rid the infamous 'lean'. (Ghetto corner balance haha.) Using standard long bilstein shocks for ae86 still.

So far my impression of performance is :o :twisted: :D 8-). Front end grip is very good now. Balanced overall, good feel/feedback, and car just wants to turn in. Easy to consistantly hit precise apex points.


Some time on this setup now and have put it through its paces on real mountain roads.

The ride is ok, not comfortable, but firm. Ever so slight weirdness over bumps at times which i attribute partially to the dual spring rate up front (tenders arent compressed 100% at static ride height, close, but not quite).

When pushing the car hard the front feels very good when turning, noticeably better than all other setups ive had. Turn-in is easy and it GRIPS - very confidence inspiring. Seems to handle everything so far. Surprising especially since ive only aligned it myself...

Unfortunately the rear needs work still. Has that pogo'ey bouncy feeling at times which i hate... driving down rd and at limit in a turn. Have some ideas... starting with what i already have opposed to buying new stuff...

...Pretty sure some of the poor rear feel is due to the factory default setting on my cusco rs 1.5 lsd. Need to try dialing the lockup rate back to 60% (from default 100%), and maybe try removing some of the springs to soften the engagement/ramp rate.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:36 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:coilover up front with swift 3.5k main springs and 6k tenders.

How does that work ? I interpret that as a long 3.5kg spring with a short 6kg spring
on top. And that is going to work as a dual rate setup. Whereas I thought tenders are
usually skinny low rate springs that are just in there to keep the spring captive under
droop. Or is the 6kg a typo ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:42 pm

Good question. As i understand it, generally speaking, 'helper' springs are there to hold main springs in place at, or near full droop (if needed). Thats their only purpose really since they have virtually no spring rate. Otoh, 'tender' springs look similar, but they are available in different spring rates which allows one to tune their setup with a progressive aka dual spring rate if desired; but, if the main spring is really strong tenders may be used just to hold it in place also.

Usually when tenders are used on a performance car its setup so the tenders are fully compressed, aka blocked, at static ride height. The secondary, aka main spring rate, is used only on compression, while the lower dual spring rate will come in to play at some point on droop/extension. As I understand it this is done to soften the rebound force of the spring(s).

Fwiw, the primary/dual spring rate is always lower than the secondary/main spring rate, as far as i know.

Dual spring rates are often tuned to operate on compression woth high performance offroad vehicles. The idea is that the lower primary spring rate is there to really soak up bumps on compression.

My setup was a bit of an experiment with a lot of guess work... especially pertaining to my corner weights, which i dont know... I wanted to see what a dual spring rate would be like on compression. My aim was to have 1" or less of travel on the 6k tender spring at static ride height. I wanted to see if i could get the tender to act as mini shock absorber, per se.

I ended up with 10 mm of travel on it at best, perhaps its closer to 5 mm -hard to say fo sure since its not easy to measure. Iirc, i calculated the primary/dual spring rate to be roughly 1.7kg/mm using the 3.5k main spring and 6k tender spring. The difference in primary/secondary spring rate isnt that large, which i hoped would minimize any 'progressive' spring rate weirdness.

To clarify this further for everyone... if the 6k tender spring isnt fully compressed im on the primary 1.7k spring rate. When the 6k tender fully compresses im on the secondary main spring rate of 3.5k.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:48 am

Ahhhh.... interesting :geek: I looked into dual rate setups a few years back but as
I wasn't going to coilovers, I never studied it in depth. There would be a lot of juggling
of spring lengths to get the effect that you wanted. You would need the 6kg spring to
coilbind when you still had travel left in the 3.5kg spring.

Standard AE86 runs about 1000kg, so approx 250kg per corner in front. A 3.5 + 6.0kg
combo gives a rate of 2.21kg so about 113mm drop without preload. Thats 71mm for
the 3.5 kg spring and 42mm for the 6kg spring. Add another 25mm travel to the 6kg
spring before binding, and you need a spring with 67mm of travel before binding. By
then the spring load is 400kg on both springs.

So the 3.5kg spring has compressed by 114mm and if we allow for a 1G bump load, then
it will compress a further 29mm for a total of 143mm. Total compression for the combo
would be 143 + 67 = 210mm. That would be more travel than you could get with a typical
coilover setup, so more calculations required :?

I can see this kind of setup being great for Baja trucks, but I found the 3kg Espelir
fronts a bit soft when hitting bumps at speed and braking into corners. Hence my move
to stiffer springs. They give away a bit of comfort and grip for a gain in high speed
handling and stability. At least that is my take on my setup so far.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:17 pm

Its been around a year since did the calcs and bought the parts. Just peaked at a dual spring rate chart again and your right about the 2.2k'ish rate. I used an 11" main spring with 7" of travel. Its a tall stack height altogether... Fwiw I use 14x6 +13 wheels w/ 195/60 tires, and i had to throw on my 10 mm wheel spacers to get the tire to clear the spring perch.

The 6k tender spring blocks far before the 3.5k main fwiw. At static height the 6ks are practically blocked, and the 3.5k main still has plenty of travel. Id hit the bump stops far before the main springs would block.

Also worth noting: at first i tried installing with the spring stack just held captive at full extension. At static height i probaly had around 3/4" of travel left on the tenders. However, my ride was way raked and my rear springs are fixed; therefore, i wound up my front spring perches a ton, effectively preloading the springs a bunch, to a point where the ride heigjt in the front was raised about 5/8". Now i have somewhere between 0-10 mm of travel on the tenders at static.

I admit its not the most consistent feeling setup, and definitely not ideal on race track or moderate to high speed sweepers. However it really shines at lower speeds, tight turns, and uneven surfaces. It could very well be a setup that feels fast, bit actually isnt :lol:

Edit: For me it doesnt feel too soft over bumps or umeven surfaces, but it does still dive a lot under heavy braking.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:08 pm

These guys (and I'm sure that there are others) https://www.hypercoils.com/dual-rate-springs/
are offering a range of one-piece dual rate springs. I was trying to imagine what they would
be like to drive on ? Kind of like having a big soft bumpstop I guess :)

And yeah... a lot of variables to be juggling when trying to find a dual rate setup that will
work considering the spring rates and lengths available. Having fancy coilovers with height
adjustment independent of preload might help, but that type of coilover usually has very
short shock travel. So no easy answers.

Soft springs are great for around town and cruising. The Espelirs were ideal for 98% of my
driving. The only time they felt wanting was hard braking into downhill corners and hitting
big dips (whoops) at speed. Under those circumstances a bit more spring rate was needed
to prevent bottoming or excessive body roll. And as I intend to enter a few street sprints
and hillclimbs next year, I decided to go with the R*SR's. Plus it was time for a change :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:18 pm

Those are very interesting indeed. Good to know since they are a direct swap for my setup - damn near perfect dimensions. Its too bad they dont offer any lower spring rates. Lowest main/secondary rate is 6.2k.

I agree about the flexibilty of added shock height adjustment with off the shelf coilovers. Side note: emailed fortune auto and they told me their front shock travel is 4.6 in front, and 4.3 in rear. Oem ae86 replacement stuff list upwards of 8" travel, but that doesnt factor the bump stop, which is 2" tall. So only 6" really. Cant remember on the rear but its slighty less, iirc.

I dpnt mind body roll so much, can = grip. (I dont like brake dive though.) So far i have no indications of bump stop contact. I know Im not far off in the front though. I put a zip tie around the cartridge (inverted bisteins) to have a visual reference of max compression while driving after the install. In hindsight, before assembly/install, I wish i would have thought to fully compress each shock with a separate zip tie to cleary mark the point of zip tie contact. D'oh!

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby BattleGarage_RS » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:18 am

Hey guys, just want to chime in on the last point about the progressive setup for the front and rear:

As a suspension nerd I also was considering a progressive setup for my own car with a lower rate helper spring that would soak up the smaller bumps before engaging a stiffer front rate for roll stiffness and controlling brake dive. I played around with this but ultimately found that my AGX / HTS shocks just weren't providing the trade off between performance and daily driver comfort that I was looking for. After studying shocks a bit more I came to realize that the biggest impact on ride comfort would be finding a high quality shock that "blows off" when hitting sharp impacts but still provides enough low shock speed (not vehicle speed) damping to control body roll for steering input, and then choosing a spring rate that would still soak up the larger bumps but provide enough stiffness for performance and aggressive driving. We ended up testing Fortune Auto and haven't looked back as they provided us with just what we were looking for from the shock department as they were very comfy for daily use, but can easily build the "platform" back when the damping is adjusted to the harder settings for track work.

One issue with the Fortunes out of the box is they only come with 6K linear springs, which are way too stiff for these cars with only an 8K spring up front. If you ever drive on a setup with inexpensive megans or BC with an 8k / 6K rate you will know what I'm talking about - rear end is hopping around, lack of rear grip, etc. which is especially noticeable with the AE86's heavy rear solid axle. We worked with Swift to develop a coilover compatible rear spring in lower rates. This dropped the spring rate down to 4.5K which brought the rear grip back, but the ride quality still wasn't what we were looking for. We continued to work with Swift and with AutohausZ's help, we tested multiple iterations of a progressive spring that soaks up the smaller bumps but then quickly ramps up to a linear rate. We finally landed on a setup that feels very natural with these cars and let's you travel over real world bumps with a LOT more confidence than a strictly linear rear spring rate. Some people asked if the car feels strange with the linear front setup and the progressive rear setup, but we focused on minimizing the progressive range so it is absorbed by the time the car has taken a set in the turn. This setup works so well that I no longer felt the need for a progressive front spring setup as the 7K front rate does a good job soaking up the bumps but provides plenty of roll stiffness. For track work with an R-comp tire we recommend going up to an 8k / 9k front rate with our new 5.5K progressive rear springs to match as this also provides a good chassis balance but still makes the car manageable on the road or bumpy sections of the track.

Image



We also found that TRD Race springs are also progressive! This is why they ride so much better than using a Swift linear rate rear spring. But the TRD springs lose their spring rate over the years so the performance can drop off over time. We verified the drop in spring rate with a spring dyno at Swift USA facility.

Anyhow you can read more about the products we helped to develops below:

Springs:
https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/produc ... lover-type

Fortune Auto:
https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/produc ... 500-series
The tuning spirit of the 90's is alive again!

AE86 parts 24/7 :arrow: http://shop.battlegarage-rs.com

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Hipcat » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:43 pm

BattleGarage_RS wrote:Hey guys, just want to chime in on the last point about the progressive setup for the front and rear:

As a suspension nerd I also was considering a progressive setup for my own car with a lower rate helper spring that would soak up the smaller bumps before engaging a stiffer front rate for roll stiffness and controlling brake dive. I played around with this but ultimately found that my AGX / HTS shocks just weren't providing the trade off between performance and daily driver comfort that I was looking for. After studying shocks a bit more I came to realize that the biggest impact on ride comfort would be finding a high quality shock that "blows off" when hitting sharp impacts but still provides enough low shock speed (not vehicle speed) damping to control body roll for steering input, and then choosing a spring rate that would still soak up the larger bumps but provide enough stiffness for performance and aggressive driving. We ended up testing Fortune Auto and haven't looked back as they provided us with just what we were looking for from the shock department as they were very comfy for daily use, but can easily build the "platform" back when the damping is adjusted to the harder settings for track work.

One issue with the Fortunes out of the box is they only come with 6K linear springs, which are way too stiff for these cars with only an 8K spring up front. If you ever drive on a setup with inexpensive megans or BC with an 8k / 6K rate you will know what I'm talking about - rear end is hopping around, lack of rear grip, etc. which is especially noticeable with the AE86's heavy rear solid axle. We worked with Swift to develop a coilover compatible rear spring in lower rates. This dropped the spring rate down to 4.5K which brought the rear grip back, but the ride quality still wasn't what we were looking for. We continued to work with Swift and with AutohausZ's help, we tested multiple iterations of a progressive spring that soaks up the smaller bumps but then quickly ramps up to a linear rate. We finally landed on a setup that feels very natural with these cars and let's you travel over real world bumps with a LOT more confidence than a strictly linear rear spring rate. Some people asked if the car feels strange with the linear front setup and the progressive rear setup, but we focused on minimizing the progressive range so it is absorbed by the time the car has taken a set in the turn. This setup works so well that I no longer felt the need for a progressive front spring setup as the 7K front rate does a good job soaking up the bumps but provides plenty of roll stiffness. For track work with an R-comp tire we recommend going up to an 8k / 9k front rate with our new 5.5K progressive rear springs to match as this also provides a good chassis balance but still makes the car manageable on the road or bumpy sections of the track.

Image



We also found that TRD Race springs are also progressive! This is why they ride so much better than using a Swift linear rate rear spring. But the TRD springs lose their spring rate over the years so the performance can drop off over time. We verified the drop in spring rate with a spring dyno at Swift USA facility.

Anyhow you can read more about the products we helped to develops below:

Springs:
https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/produc ... lover-type

Fortune Auto:
https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/produc ... 500-series


What would your spring rate recommendation be for a daily driver. I drive long distances specially mountain roads (Colorado). I drive pretty aggressively due to the lack of traffic when I’m commuting.

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Autohaus_Z » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:14 pm

Hipcat wrote:
What would your spring rate recommendation be for a daily driver. I drive long distances specially mountain roads (Colorado). I drive pretty aggressively due to the lack of traffic when I’m commuting.


Grant has been a big advocate for the 7k front and 4.5k rear setup. When I did the product testing for the 4.5k BGRS x Swift rear springs I actually drove in an AutoX event. When asked about any changes in performance as compared to my old TRD springs I did not have anything conclusive to report ALTHOUGH I did mention to the boss that the 2.5hr drive to and from the event was extremely comfortable!

In case you are looking for a full coilover set up, BGRS also has a new offering not listed on the site. Just give them a call.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:55 am

^details on their new, unlisted setup please

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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Autohaus_Z » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:32 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:^details on their new, unlisted setup please


I'm actually not sure how much I can reveal about them publicly. But if you give them a call I think the boss has been pretty transparent with customers about them.
Owner. Car Make Autohaus. San Jose, CA.
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Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Hipcat » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:39 pm

Any chance on giving me their phone number? It's not listed on their site. (tax season)

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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:45 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Autohaus_Z » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:49 am

Hipcat wrote:Any chance on giving me their phone number? It's not listed on their site. (tax season)


You are right, the phone number is not on the website, couldnt believe it! (669) 247-7086 I found it on the facebook page. Tell them I sent you. I had a small convo about this thread with the boss last night.
Owner. Car Make Autohaus. San Jose, CA.
RnD/Product Testing. Battle Garage RS.
Amsoil Dealer # 5615215
IG @Autohaus_Z for AE86 fun, T50 trans builds, and track life!

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Hipcat
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:25 am
Location: Aurora Colorado

Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Hipcat » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:09 am

I called and left a message. I don’t think they shipped my order yet. We’ll see what they say.

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Hipcat
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Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:25 am
Location: Aurora Colorado

Re: AE86 Best Suspension Setup

Postby Hipcat » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:50 pm

I talked to Grant today. I'm excited about the new product and placed an order. I took the advice on spring rates provided. You can follow my build here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21651 But it may be a while before they are fully tested.

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