Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

notnilc20
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Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:23 pm

I've been doing some research on alternative shocks to use for this short shock conversions....what i've found is that people have used:
Fronts) kyb agx front shocks from an mr2 part number 765015
Or. Kyb agx rear shocks from an mr2 part number 765016(slightly longer than the 765015) works with a 40mm cutout from oem shock housing plus a 20mm spacer at the bottom of shock housing. UPDATE! THE REAR SHOCK INSERTS p/n 765016 DO NOT WORK IF YOU CUT 40MM OUT OF THE CASING! THEY ARE TOO LONG.

Rears) kyb agx rear shocks from a fbody camaro/firebird. Part number 743019

Why cut 40mm out and put back 20mm with a spacer? Would cutting only 20mm out give same result?
Are there any other alternatives. If you have done this mod, how was it and are you happy with it? Thanks.
Last edited by notnilc20 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:36 am

Have a read of this informative thread :)

viewtopic.php?t=7395

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:28 am

jondee86 wrote:Have a read of this informative thread :)

http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7395

Cheers... jondee86


Thanks Jondee86....yeah I actually ran across that thread after I posted this one....even still there was some confusion on there. But it looks like you cleared things up finally towards the end. So I'm going to go with;

Front) kyb agx p/n 765015 front shocks for a sw20 mr2. Cut out 40mm from shock housing and use 20mm spacer (can use stacked washers?) On the bottom of the shock.

Rear) kyb agx p/n 743019 rear shocks for a fbody camaro/firebird.

Springs i'm going to use t3 weld on kit for front and bc racing rear height adjuster (high/low kit) with bc racing springs for rear. If you see anything wrong with this set up let me know.....thanks.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby chohdog » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:36 am

AGX...while used for many years are very undesirable in both their valving and durability. They blow often, but are cheap to replace. If you need something just for your car to ride on sure, get them. For your money however, I would recommend the Bilstein kit that T3 sells. Honestly, you get what you pay for with suspension and while the AGX are cheaper, the Bilsteins are much better.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:45 pm

Yeah.... can't argue with that ^^^^. Shocks that are specifically valves for an AE86
are always going to out perform shocks valved for some other vehicle. That being said,
I run the AGX combo with both front and rears on the softest setting with 3/2.8kg/mm
springs, and the ride is comfortable like stock. Cranking the rebound up just makes
the car "bouncy". I would guess that the shocks might work better with stiffer springs,
and if I can ever find some decent springs around 5/4kg/mm I'll give it a try.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Just while on the subject of using shocks not specifically valved for the AE86,
I have decided to try an experiment. Since I already have some new in the box
Koni 8641-1146SPORT inserts for an AE92 that will work on the front of an AE86,
I am going to get some of the 8041-1186SPORT Mustang rears. Then I will have
top adjustable shocks front and rear :)

Opinion on the Mustang shocks seems to be about equally split between I think
it should work
and the usual they will be crap because they are valved for
a heavier vehicle
.

Time to settle the matter !! And also to see if there really is that much difference
between the AGX combo and the Koni sports.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:14 am

jondee86 wrote:Just while on the subject of using shocks not specifically valved for the AE86,
I have decided to try an experiment. Since I already have some new in the box
Koni 8641-1146SPORT inserts for an AE92 that will work on the front of an AE86,
I am going to get some of the 8041-1186SPORT Mustang rears. Then I will have
top adjustable shocks front and rear :)

Opinion on the Mustang shocks seems to be about equally split between I think
it should work
and the usual they will be crap because they are valved for
a heavier vehicle
.

Time to settle the matter !! And also to see if there really is that much difference
between the AGX combo and the Koni sports.

Cheers... jondee86


I'm definantly interested in seeing/hearing about the results....keep us in the loop. Thanks.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:42 pm

Shortening the strut basically helps set the shock height and ride height.

A 20 mm spacer is used on really short stroke/length inserts to set the shock at a height where its in an ideal usable range at static ride height. The agx that people use actually wouldnt fit in a 40 mm cut strut with a 20 mm spacer, for reference.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:19 am

Deuce Cam wrote:Shortening the strut basically helps set the shock height and ride height.

A 20 mm spacer is used on really short stroke/length inserts to set the shock at a height where its in an ideal usable range at static ride height. The agx that people use actually wouldnt fit in a 40 mm cut strut with a 20 mm spacer, for reference.


Ok so, i ordered some front agx for an sw20 mr2 to use in my ae86....you're saying that the 40mm cut with 20mm spacer will not work with this setup? Can someone who has these shocks tell me what should be cut and spaced for this shock to work? Thanks.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:12 pm

You can use thoseninserts in a 40 mm cut strut, but you will only need roughly a 5 mm spacer below the strut insert to keep it captive in the strut. Its because the agx cartridge length is longer then on say... the trd/hts short stroke inserts.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:26 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:You can use thoseninserts in a 40 mm cut strut, but you will only need roughly a 5 mm spacer below the strut insert to keep it captive in the strut. Its because the agx cartridge length is longer then on say... the trd/hts short stroke inserts.


Gotcha.....thanks a lot. :)

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:33 pm

The size of the spacer depends a lot on how you make the spacer, and on what you use
for the gland nut.

The bottom of the strut on the inside is not just flat. There is a big chamfer all the way
round, so if you get a washer that just fits inside the tube, it does not fall all the way to
the bottom. It sits on top of the chamfer so you lose about 10mm. I got some allow rod
about 20mm dia (from memory) that just fitted inside the ring on the bottom of the AGX
insert. Then I tapered one end to make it small enough to actually sit hard down on the
bottom of the strut.

For the gland nut I used the OEM one with the seal removed, and had the inside opened
out on a lathe so that it sat over and cupped the top of the insert. That gains about
10mm at the top. The end result was that my spacers did end up at 20mm. So you just
need to do a trial fit until you get the spacer right. So long as you have a couple of
threads still exposed when you tighten the gland nut down, you are good :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:16 am

jondee86 wrote:The size of the spacer depends a lot on how you make the spacer, and on what you use
for the gland nut.

The bottom of the strut on the inside is not just flat. There is a big chamfer all the way
round, so if you get a washer that just fits inside the tube, it does not fall all the way to
the bottom. It sits on top of the chamfer so you lose about 10mm. I got some allow rod
about 20mm dia (from memory) that just fitted inside the ring on the bottom of the AGX
insert. Then I tapered one end to make it small enough to actually sit hard down on the
bottom of the strut.

For the gland nut I used the OEM one with the seal removed, and had the inside opened
out on a lathe so that it sat over and cupped the top of the insert. That gains about
10mm at the top. The end result was that my spacers did end up at 20mm. So you just
need to do a trial fit until you get the spacer right. So long as you have a couple of
threads still exposed when you tighten the gland nut down, you are good :)

Cheers... jondee86


Wow.....sounds complicated...for as much as this is done on an 86 i'm surprised there isn't a write up or vid on this yet.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:33 pm

jondee86 wrote:The size of the spacer depends a lot on how you make the spacer, and on what you use
for the gland nut.

The bottom of the strut on the inside is not just flat. There is a big chamfer all the way
round, so if you get a washer that just fits inside the tube, it does not fall all the way to
the bottom. It sits on top of the chamfer so you lose about 10mm. I got some alloy rod
about 20mm dia (from memory) that just fitted inside the ring on the bottom of the AGX
insert. Then I tapered one end to make it small enough to actually sit hard down on the
bottom of the strut.

For the gland nut I used the OEM one with the seal removed, and had the inside opened
out on a lathe so that it sat over and cupped the top of the insert. That gains about
10mm at the top. The end result was that my spacers did end up at 20mm. So you just
need to do a trial fit until you get the spacer right. So long as you have a couple of
threads still exposed when you tighten the gland nut down, you are good :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:56 pm

Nah... not cmplicated :) Once you have the strut and insert on the bench in front
of you it will all become clear. This is not my pic, but it shows how I had the OEM
gland nuts modified to fit the top of the inserts...

Image

You might not have to do that. You need to trial assemble the components then
do some measuring to see how much spacer is required to lift the insert up so that
you still have a couple of threads showing on the gland nut when it is tightened.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby Deuce Cam » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:17 am

T3 would prob sell the spacers they use on their coilovers (stock 40 mm cut tube, agx strut) for prob like $10 bucks. They fit inside the 'button' on the bottom of the agx cartridge, and also the center of the chamfer on the strut tube. Iirc they were used with the oem gland nut
- without modding it - and the insert was held captive. (Going off memory from when i parted out a pair of their coilovers a few years ago.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:41 pm

Great info guys....thanks a lot! I'll contact t3 tmrw and see about the spacers.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:30 pm

jondee86 wrote:I am going to get some of the 8041-1186SPORT Mustang rears.

Have these now and while I won't be installing them for a while, I did put them
alongside some Toyota OEM long stroke KYB gas shocks for comparison.

The KONI's are about 2 inches shorter when fully extended. This is good.
The KONI's are about 2 inches longer when fully compressed. This may not be good.

The hole in the KYB bottom bush is 16mm dia.
The steel sleeve in the KONI bottom bush is 17mm dia. This may not be good.

The fact that the KONI is longer when fully compressed is most likely down to the
bumpstop they have on the spear. Subject to a bit of checking, it may be possible
to remove the bumpstop and gain 2 more inches of bump travel (if needed). A
simple solution for the bottom bush might be to press out the KONI bush and use
the bushes from the OEM shock. The steel outer sleeve looks to be roughly the
same diameter, so this should work.

I'll do a proper writeup when the springs arrive and I can install this stuff :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:26 pm

Yusss.... the shock eye bushing needs to be 16mm dia for the AE86...

Image

,,, so I had to press out the steel sleeve. And that took some doing as the sleeve has
like a thread cut into it to give it extra grip on the rubber. The rubber bush is also SUPER
compressed into the outer sleeve. That is actually a really good construction detail, and
I would have liked to use it, but not possible.

So I used Whiteline urethane bushes (Part no. W32051) that are the equivalent of the
Energy Suspension 9.8141G bushes suggested in another thread as being readily available
in the US. Hope to make a start on the install tomorrow :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:55 am

Been working on getting the front inserts installed, and making a few comparisons
for anyone thinking of going down this route....

Image

KONI AE92SPORTS inserts vs AGX SW20 front inserts.

Image

Not much in it, but the KONI inserts are about 15mm shorter in the spear. On both
of them the spear goes all the way into the shock body except for about 4mm before
the first step.

Image

Bottom detail is quite different. AGX has a hollow ring and KONI has a solid stub.

Image

These are the spacers I made to go under the AGX inserts. A short piece of 25mm dia
aluminum road x 25mm long with a chamfer one end and a bit of a dimple in the other
end to accommodate the slightly "pointy" end of the insert. The height of the spacer
will vary according to the type of gland nut you use.

Note that because the KONI has a solid stub and also because the way in which the
gland nut holds the insert is different between the AGX and the KONI, I had to shorten
the spacer down to approx 15mm long. Basically the KONI sits 10mm further down the
tube than the AGX, which means the assembled strut is about 25mm shorter now.

Image

Comparison between the Espelir front springs (3.0kg/mm) and the RS*R front springs
(5.2kg/mm). Still had to compress the RS*R springs to assemble the strut, so no
problem with keeping them captive :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:07 am

Thanks for those reference pics Jondee. I have the agx's for sw20 and will be installing them in a week or 2...my concern is the spacer to use at the bottom. Jondee you made your own but I have no personal access to machine or milling tools. Could I use washers taped together or even welded together? Basically i'm asking what's the recommended backyard solution to this? Thanks.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:55 pm

AFAIK a lot of people have used the washers as shown in this thread...
viewtopic.php?t=12855#p87456

Just drop in as many as you need. They sit on top of the internal chamfer inside
the strut tube, so no filing or welding required :) Get some decent quality 2" wide
adhesive tape (100mph tape) and wrap enough turns around the insert near the
bottom, so that it still slides into the tube without fuss. That will help to keep the
insert lined up and stop any rattling.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:54 pm

Got everything installed... front and rear... shocks and springs.

Image

Comparison betweeen OEM shocks, KONI Mustang and AGX Camaro...

Image

Comparison between Espelir and RS*R rear springs...

Measuring from the frame rails to the floor (beside the bungs behind the front wheels
and in front of the rear wheels) I have about 114mm front and 122mm rear. Was 107
front and 118 rear, so car is about 6mm (1/4") higher than before.

I set all four shocks at 50% adjustment and went for a drive over an assortment of city
and semi-rural roads, and the difference in ride quality was barely noticeable. Maybe
feeling the bumps a fraction more, but certainly nothing to complain about. And the
handling when pushing in the twisties feels better... more confidence inspiring I guess
is the best way to describe it.

I'll need to do a full lap of my usual "test track" to get a better comparison, but right
now I am grinning :D :D 8-)

Image

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:15 am

thought this thread might like a age/mileage report......

I've had custom made springs (6/4) for nearly 20 (?) years now, but in their current configuration, it has been about 7+ years, and over 20,000 miles.

When this set up was in my AE86, I used Tokico Illuminas and some 1950's tech to hold it all together (used "custom" made retainer straps, and large hose clamps to keep from unloading the springs) As old school as the straps were, they worked great for a long time.

Move ahead to 2009/2010 when I built Surreptitious, and the straps were gone, and in their place were a combination of some custom, and some supplied parts. The dampers now being used were/are Tokico HTS-112. These are the full stroke version of the HTS-102.
Image

This was necessary because the HTS-112 were designed from full stroke springs, and although not short, they were no longer full stroke either.

This is how it fit together so spring fits snugly

Image



And finished @ the top for adjustment access

Image


Here is the adjustment scale

Image




Over the past 7 years/20k miles, the adjustment has changed very little. I've set the fronts to 4.5 turns and the rears are closer to 3.5 turns. The springs and dampers work well modulating ride, comfort, and handling. Would I change things? I'd like to ride in other peoples cars to see if their combinations might work as well, or maybe better(??), but mine works well enough(I've had quite a few other AE86ers drive/ride in my car) that I don't think I'd change... just to see if it did get better.

A bit about me... I'm now 58, so hard for hard's sake is not what is my desire. I like well planted, great NEUTRAL handling... and I have this in my car..........
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Yeah... there is a lot of technical/scientific voodoo involved with suspension, and getting
the shocks matched to the springs seems to be part of it :) If pulling front struts apart wasn't
such a chore, I would have liked to have tried the AGX with the RS*R springs. I have a feeling
that the AGX would have worked better (been a better match) with the stiffer spring rates.

Anyway, now that I have a few more miles on the Koni's, I think that this combo works even
better than the AGX combo in terms of ride comfort. Minor surface imperfections are soaked
up and bigger hits don't jolt the car as much as they did with the softer springs. All of which
goes to prove that decent suspension does not have to bone jarring stiff !!!

As said above, in the real world where people use their cars for daily transportation with the
occasional visit to autoX or track events, having suspension that makes the car a pleasure to
drive is important. If you are lucky enough to have a dedicated race/drift car, then by all
means install racecar suspension.... and trailer your car to events :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:32 pm

Need Help! I'm in the process of this short stroke conversion and I've done everything to the T. Cut out 40mm and purchased agx shock inserts for a sw20 fronts(765016). However on my test fit, the shocks are already at the top of the housing and the gland nut is even only maybe halfway down when tightening hand tight. How can I post pics? Or if you can email me I can email pics....on the bottom of my shocks inserts there is a cup that is acting as a spacer...am I ok as long as I get the gland nut to fasten the shock insert?? Thank you. .my email is notnilc20@hotmail.com

UPDATE- turns out I ordered the wrong part. I should have ordered 765015 which are sw20 fronts instead I ordered 765016 which are sw20 shocks for the rear and are a little bit longer. Just great. It's been almost 2 months i've had these sitting in a box. Hopefully I can exchange them for the proper ones. If not, would I still be able to use them? Thanks.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:26 pm

If you can't exchange them, then you can probably use them if the gland nut
threads on far enough. Are you using the OEM gland nut ? If you are then it will
be sitting up high on the insert unless you have had the inside diameter turned
out on a lathe. Like, the insert does not slip inside the OEM gland nut until some
material is removed. Once you do that you gain about 10mm as the insert then
slips up inside the nut and is against the chamfer inside the nut.

There is a pic near the top of this thread that shows what I am talking about :)

The notes I have from back when I was looking at this install seem to show that
the stroke is the same on the AGX SW20 fronts and rears, even thought the
cartridge length is different. If this is true you should be OK using the rears in
the shortened casing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:36 am

jondee86 wrote:If you can't exchange them, then you can probably use them if the gland nut
threads on far enough. Are you using the OEM gland nut ? If you are then it will
be sitting up high on the insert unless you have had the inside diameter turned
out on a lathe. Like, the insert does not slip inside the OEM gland nut until some
material is removed. Once you do that you gain about 10mm as the insert then
slips up inside the nut and is against the chamfer inside the nut.

There is a pic near the top of this thread that shows what I am talking about :)

The notes I have from back when I was looking at this install seem to show that
the stroke is the same on the AGX SW20 fronts and rears, even thought the
cartridge length is different. If this is true you should be OK using the rears in
the shortened casing.

Cheers... jondee86


Jondee86, thank you much for the advice. the agx inserts I got came with new gland nuts so I should be ok there. I will see if I can exchange them for the shorter ones (doubt it since I got these around the 1st of July)but if not I'll just have to roll with these. It is a bit of a relief to hear that these can probably be used. It just puzzled me because I certainly don't need any spacer on the bottom lol.

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Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby jondee86 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:31 pm

Have you checked to make sure the new gland nuts have the same thread as the AE86
strut tubes ? I think I got some but the thread was wrong. If the thread is good, see how
many turns it takes to get the nut all the way down without the insert in the strut. Then
see how many turns you can get with the insert inside the tube.

I would say that you need to have at least half of the threads engaged, so check that out
before you make any decisions. My comment about being able to use the longer inserts
was more about then having the same stroke as the shorter ones. You still have to have
enough thread engaged to prevent the nut getting pulled out when the suspension goes
to full droop as your front wheels leave the ground !!!

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

notnilc20
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Memphis

Re: Short stroke shocks front and rears alternatives.

Postby notnilc20 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:33 pm

jondee86 wrote:Have you checked to make sure the new gland nuts have the same thread as the AE86
strut tubes ? I think I got some but the thread was wrong. If the thread is good, see how
many turns it takes to get the nut all the way down without the insert in the strut. Then
see how many turns you can get with the insert inside the tube.

I would say that you need to have at least half of the threads engaged, so check that out
before you make any decisions. My comment about being able to use the longer inserts
was more about then having the same stroke as the shorter ones. You still have to have
enough thread engaged to prevent the nut getting pulled out when the suspension goes
to full droop as your front wheels leave the ground !!!

Cheers... jondee86


Well, got some bad news. The threads on the new gland nuts are indeed the wrong thread pitch. Also, I tried to use the oem ones and it's sitting too high.....can't even get it started. Doesn't look good. Then I look on my reciept for rockauto.com and it said the time frame to return or exchange was July 26. Haha. Missed that deadline. So maybe I'll try to sell these and order new correct 765015 shocks. $200 down the toilet.

I thought about trying to modify the gland nuts like you did Jondee86 and maybe even cut the little cup off the bottom of the shock.....but i don't know.....what would you do? Also, where would I be able to go to even have these gland nuts modified? Thanks again.

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