Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

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jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:44 pm

One of the interesting things about DIY tuning with an aftermarket ECU, is that
there is alway something new to learn. In the last few days I discovered that fuel
injectors have dead times, and these have to be set in the ECU according to the
information provided by the injector manufacturers.

I'm using standard 365cc/min DENSO low-res injectors from a 4AGZE, and since
the interwebz could not come up with dead times for them, I decided to use the
values for DENSO 550cc injectors. Figured the design would be near enough the
same, and certainly closer than the default values in the ECU.

Entered up the new values and fired the engine up. Previously it had been starting
and running fine, but now it stalled out on cold start due to being way too lean.
Driving, all the low rpm/low load points were also very lean, so now I have to start
a whole new tune :roll: But according to what I read, having the correct dead times
helps get the best idle quality, and minimise some of the other corrections that
have to be applied to compensate for wrong dead times.

In another week I should have a new fuel map sorted, and be able to start pushing
the engine a bit harder.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Injector dead times are just how long in milliseconds it takes the injector to
open at different voltages.
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aceforever » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:05 pm

omg this project is so cool. So much hype!

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:18 pm

Nearing the home stretch now :) Just need to get a bit of road tuning done and
then I will go and see what's involved in getting a dyno tune. Forced induction is
a lot more complicated than normally aspirated, so I think I will have to throw
this over to the experts for the finishing touches.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aukword1 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:14 pm

Its crazy to think that you have any learning to do when it comes to this car lol. I had to go through the same learning process when I went with the megasquirt and FI. You learn valuable things. Have you considered doing a coil pack conversion since you have an aftermarket ECU? If you need an EDIS 4 system I can source one for you from a junkyard as long as you just pay the shipping fees :D

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:09 pm

Thanks for the offer, but I already have that covered :)

Image

Mounted on top of the cam cover you can see some 4AGZE coilpacks that are run in a
wasted spark setup by a 2-channel Subaru igniter and a GZE cam angle sensor. I have
considered going to a 36-1 toothed wheel on the crank, but that's a lot of extra work
for minimal gain.

Learning to tune a car properly means getting to understand how the engine reacts to
fuel, ignition, temperature and boost (where applicable). Easy to do on a steady state
dyno but difficult to do on the road because you can't hold the rpm steady under load...
the car always wants to go faster :D

So I just try to get the car driveable with very conservative fuel and ignition settings.
Then I will take it for a dyno and let a professional safely optimise the tune. It doesn't
take much detonation to kill a boosted engine... so call it insurance ;)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aukword1 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:46 pm

Ah I see, those GZE crank angle sensors are hard to come by. I am in the process of doing the 36-1 toothed crank one myself but I got sidetracked with suspension and brake upgrades. Does your ECU's tuning software come with an auto fuel map tune feature when the car is running?

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:55 pm

The smallport distributor has exactly the same trigger wheels and sensors as the
GZE CAS, so it is possible to use the dissy with the cap and rotor removed. Same
deal as with the 20V dissy relocation. All you need to do is make a cover to tidy
the open end.

Yes, my ECU has an auto-tune function for fuel. I use it to get a rough map and
then smooth the obvious highs and lows by hand. Once the map is close I do a lot
of logging and make small adjustments until the closed loop trim applied by the
ECU is close to zero.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:15 am

Photobucket has just had a dummy spit and blocked all my linked pics... they want
US$400 a year to unblock them... payable in advance. Anyone know of any decent
alternatives (preferably free) that don't mind third party linking ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jinx » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:05 am

photobucketofshit is evil greedy clunky garbage. Hate em to pieces. Lots of threads on other forums
tinypic.com used to b wonderfully simple, fast n free.... then looked liked someone poisoned it(lemme guess) :oops:
some options
http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/inde ... %2Bhosting
http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/inde ... try1541133

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby Jayrdee » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:06 pm

jondee86 wrote:Photobucket has just had a dummy spit and blocked all my linked pics... they want
US$400 a year to unblock them... payable in advance. Anyone know of any decent
alternatives (preferably free) that don't mind third party linking ?

Cheers... jondee86



I use flickr. zero complaints so far!
[I have no idea what I'm doing]
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:43 pm

Yeah... I have been using photobucket for a few years and I have noticed that it has
become much more aggressively money focussed. So time to move my pics to a new
home. I'm shifting some to Postimage.org at the moment, and that seems to work
just as well as photobucket but without all the advertising and other BS.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aceforever » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:03 pm

I use imgur.com. Reddit uses it and I've been using them for a while. Pretty sweet. Also keep up the good work jondee! I'm rooting for ya!

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:04 am

aceforever wrote:I use imgur.com.

Yeah... I have actually opened an account at Imgur and uploaded a couple of pics
just to see how it works, Postimage.org is a bit calmer and cleaner to use, so I put
my build thread pics there and changed the links. Kind of a tedious process as there
are about 60 pics "officially" in the thread. Other random pics are just sitting in
my bucket at the moment as photobucket seems to have only blocked the pics that
I hot linked on this site.

Most of the pics that I have linked to other sites are still working, and rather than
change them all I might leave them where they are for the time being. I don't like
reading threads where the pic links are broken, so I want to avoid doing that.

Middle of winter here so cold and wet a lot of the time. Working on getting the car
tuned when there is a bit of clear sky, and organising a suspension upgrade. Going
to try Koni Sports shocks and some stiffer springs... curiosity got the better of me :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:20 am

Been messing round with the AQUAMIST HFS-3 water-meth injection kit and have it
installed and running now. This is where I found a home for the Fast Acting Valve...

Image

The FAV (circled) is a small PWM solenoid valve that is pulsed just like a fuel injector
to inject water into the engine air intake ducting. The duty cycle of the FAV is linked
to the Injector Duty Cycle by way of an IDC output from my ECU to the AQUAMIST
controller. In this case the duty cycle ratio is 1:1 so the water injection rises and falls
with the fuel injection.

Image

I have two misting nozzles fitted. A small one (circled) in the last bend before the
intake manifold and larger one down underneath in the first bend after the s/c discharge.
At the moment I am just spraying water while I adjust the failsafe settings. But once
I am happy that everything is working as it should, I'll be running a 50/50 mix :D

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jinx » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:35 am

so you're injecting, but no intercooler ?
A starion member runs his turbo LS swapped drifter like that
One AE86 owner ran injection on his TRD supercharged(non-intercooled) RZ swap.... made a night and day difference

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:58 pm

jinx wrote:So you're injecting, but no intercooler ?

Yup... made that decision when starting out on this project. Just couldn't see any
easy way of running all the extra pipework for an intercooler. Looked around and
found that there were quite a few examples of turbo and s/c engines running with
water-meth and no intercooler, and decided that was the way to go.

Idea is that I only start injecting once I reach a certain IDC that corresponds to low
boost. The car drives just fine without getting into boost, so it only injects when I have
my foot up it. Otherwise I'd be filling the water tank up after every drive.

I never had a supercharged car before, and the one thing that makes this so much
better than N.A. is that when you put your foot down the car accelerates and keeps
accelerating. No waiting for revs to build up... instant TORQUE :D

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby scalpel » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:56 pm

wow very nice . always a pleasure to see og members still keeping the journal vs facebook

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:37 pm

When I first started messing with my AE86 I was always worried that I would fcuk
things up because I didn't know enough about engines or electrical stuff :? So I went
to the interwebz for advice. And the site that answered more of my questions than
anywhere else, was... you guessed it... club4AG :D

Now I post my stuff up so that maybe it will help someone else starting out and not
sure how to go about modifying their own car. Sharing the knowledge and putting it
somewhere that it can be found easily, weeks, months or even years later.

Facebook is no good for that.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:48 pm

Got these RS*R springs in from Japan today...

Image

Ruler thing didn't work due to parallax error :P Actual measurements of overall free
length are 242mm for the fronts and 260mm for the rears. Did a bit of figuring and
the fronts should JUST be captive with the SW20 AGX inserts and 40mm cut struts.
Worst case I may have to take a bit of spacer from under the insert and put it on top.

Haven't compared the KONI's with the AGX yet, but if they look OK I shall most likely
just put the KONI's in and call it a day. Pulling struts out and swapping springs is not
my idea of an amusing afternoon !!!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aukword1 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:05 pm

Nice, got the water/methanol injection kit setup and some new suspension parts. What spring rates are those?

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:27 am

The RS*R springs are 5.2/4.4 kg/mm. Hard to find linear springs for the AE86 these
days, so not too many choices for rates. Idea is to stiffen the ride up a bit when going
hard out, but still keep some level of ride comfort and grip. The car is mostly driven
on typical city/suburban roads and I don't want to feel like I'm in a paint shaker every
time I go across town to pick something up from a store :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:37 am

jondee86 wrote:Been messing round with the AQUAMIST HFS-3 water-meth injection kit and have it
installed and running now. This is where I found a home for the Fast Acting Valve...

Image

The FAV (circled) is a small PWM solenoid valve that is pulsed just like a fuel injector
to inject water into the engine air intake ducting. The duty cycle of the FAV is linked
to the Injector Duty Cycle by way of an IDC output from my ECU to the AQUAMIST
controller. In this case the duty cycle ratio is 1:1 so the water injection rises and falls
with the fuel injection.

Image

I have two misting nozzles fitted. A small one (circled) in the last bend before the
intake manifold and larger one down underneath in the first bend after the s/c discharge.
At the moment I am just spraying water while I adjust the failsafe settings. But once
I am happy that everything is working as it should, I'll be running a 50/50 mix :D

Cheers... jondee86



Holy crap....... not quite as advanced a system.... BUT....

back in the early 1980s... I had a fox bodied Capri... with the 2.3 turbo draw-thru carb engine. One of the pieces I got for it was a variable boost controller.... that had a water injection system (instead of an intercooler). The water injection system was controlled by boost pressure, @ what ever level I set it @ it would turn on.

I ran 91% Isopropyl alcohol instead of water... and I was running about 15-20#s of boost :shock: the stock Ford system was designed to run just 5#s :lol:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:01 pm

Funny enough one of my brothers had one of those down-sized mini Mustangs
with the 2.3 liter turbo engines back in the day. I only looked under the hood to
see if the turbo had been stolen as it was so lacking in power :?

But IIRC the same base (Pinto) engine was used in the Sierra RS500 so it obviously
had a lot of potential !!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:49 am

One of my objectives when starting this s/c project was to try and optimise the hardware
for best performance. By this I mean make the system as efficient as possible by reducing
the resistance to flow of the intake and exhaust. In particular, I wanted to improve the
intake ducting as this is a known restriction on the OEM 4AGZE system.

So I used 2-1/2" OD (60mm ID) tubes with mandrel bends and a 60mm throttle. To get the
car running I hooked up the OEM AE86 intake ducting and filter, as by a pure fluke, the
open end of the throttle ended up in more or less the same position as the original AE86
throttle. Looked great... just like a factory install :)

Image

Since I have been running the car I have been curious as to why I have not been able to
reach the boost numbers that were predicted by the s/c data sheets. There are a number
of factors that can affect the boost produced, and I have been looking at them to see if
I can get closer to the predicted numbers before changing the the next size pulley. Right
now I am looking at the restriction caused by the OEM intake and filter.

Image

I have got hold of a cheap ebay digital differential pressure gauge that reads up to 2psi
max above or below atmospheric. I have hooked this up to a tapping on the throttle body
so that I can read the pressure drop across the intake and filter, and hope to get readings
tomorrow. With a positive displacement s/c the pressure ratio across the s/c is fixed at
any given rpm, and any restriction on the intake side means a roughly equivalent loss of
boost on the discharge side.

It was always my intention to make a low restriction intake/filter setup, and I have the
pieces ready to go... only have to finish making the brackets to hold the filter steady.

Image

I have used 3" tubing and a quality filter, so I am hoping to recover at least 1psi of lost
(= free) boost once it is installed. But I'll post the results no matter how it turns out :)

EDIT: Experiment was a fail as it turns out the spigot on the throttle body that I was
using to measure vaccum was the evap connection. So it was seeing engine vacuum as
soon as the throttle began to open and therefore no use for measuring intake restriction.
There will be a delay while I drill and tap the TB for a new barb.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:29 pm

Tested the new intake today and it made a BIG difference to how the engine
pulled above 4000rpm... WOOT !!!! Be like... twinscrew kicked in YO :shock: :D 8-)

Just gotta put the OEM stuff back on and test that. Hope to do that tomorrow and
then I'll post the results.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jinx » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:44 am

read a few testimonials of definite gains from increasing piping diameter around the stock sc12
the vast majority never bothered to. It's the little details, eh....
Would b interesting to c ur final results. Good job (as usual)

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:02 pm

Results are in and look like this....

Intake Pressure Drop
Apexi Intake; 1.43kPa @ 7490rpm
OEM System: 5.91kPa @ 7480rpm

Engine Manifold Pressure
Apexi Intake: 143.3kPa @ 7490rpm
OEM System: 136.4kPa @ 7480rpm

So by reducing the intake pressure drop by 4.48kPa (0.65psi) I gained 6.9kPa or
exactly 1.0psi of boost
:) This shows that the OEM system is actually quite efficient
and acceptable for stock N.A engines. I'm pushing a bit more air thru the engine so
N.A. the pressure drop would be more like 0.5psi max. A fresh filter element would
be even less !!

The gain from the freer-flowing intake will be progressively greater as I raise the
boost level (and intake airflow), so I am more than happy with these results. When
working with small capacity engines like the 4AGE, every little bit counts !!!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:15 am

Been chipping away at this project, driving the car whenever I get the chance and
getting a few things done that need to be done before the car goes to scrutineering.
Catch can is mandatory for any track events so grabbed a cheap ebay can and found
a place for it right under the air filter :D

Image

Don't think that will be a problem as I have run the engine and checked the cam cover
vent. Feels like there is a lot of air coming out but it is just pulsations due to pumping
action of the pistons. And no sign of any oil in the vent tube. Made a bend out of a piece
of tube from an old outdoor VHF TV aerial and epoxied it into the outlet. Easy call to
make when I saw the price of 12AN fittings !!! Just have to find a piece of black hose
to hook it up.

Also got the small (75MM dia) pulley installed on the supercharger now, so starting to
work on a tune that I can take to the dyno. Running 50:50 meth and water spray to
keep manifold inlet temp under control. Typically runs around 70degC and the spray
does a reasonable job of controlling the temp rise when running at WOT. All in all I am
very happy with the way this is comng together :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby aukword1 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pm

Glad you are happy with the project thus far. It is looking great btw. I'd be interested to see what the dyno numbers are with a smaller SC pulley. Also, you can probably run a larger crank pulley to add even more boost like the 4agze guys do. Anyhow good luck with it all!

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Re: Gonna start a build and see where it goes ===> TWINSCREW !!! :-p

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:36 pm

aukword1 wrote:Glad you are happy with the project thus far. It is looking great btw.

Thanks :) It makes enough power now to be a fun ride, and that is really what this build
is all about. It will go on the dyno to get the timing set properly, and that should help get
the power up a bit, and I'll be happy with whatever it makes once it's tuned.

Not planning on spinning the s/c any faster. The only future mod that I might look at is
getting a set of cams. I'll need to see where peak torque is sitting, and then decide if I want
to push the peak any higher. That will make more power, but if it hurts bottom end then
I don't see any point. The best thing about the engine right now is the instant response
when you get on the gas, and I don't want to lose any of that :mrgreen:

Cheers... jondee86
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